Issue with mounting scope... in relation to the rifle its at bit of an angle

[upsdownsideways]

Mounted scope using badger rail and ARC rings.

Seems when the scope is level, the reticle is a few degrees canted to the left. Tilted to the right, it makes the reticle level, however the scope is not quite level.

How much does this matter in the grand scheme of things? Hope I explained it well enough.

 

[Tokay444]

Send the scope back for one that’s square to itself.

 

[ma smith]

IMHO OP this makes no sense, the scope body is straight or not,
the mounting (eg pic rail) is either square or not to the barrel,
the reticle is square or not to the scope body,
the crosshairs then only rotates in line with scope body
unless the body is bent, there should be no problem.

 

[upsdownsideways]

Send the scope back for one that’s square to itself.

Sarcasm? Ha

 

[Tokay444]

No.

 

[Mudflap621]

How u leveling scope? I prefer to level the action than use a plumb bob to level reticle.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Sarcasm? Ha

It wouldn’t be the first time a mfg shipped a reticle that was canted relative to the turret axes. If it is, you can’t fix it, and don’t want that problem.

I assume you leveled the scope by putting a bubble on the elevation turret, or something similar?

 

[upsdownsideways]

How u leveling scope? I prefer to level the action than use a plumb bob to level reticle.

Attached the rail, put the rings on, put scope in rings and lighty tight enough to move it away. Used small bubbles to check. The rifle is level, the mount is level, but when I look at the reticle, it's slightly canted to the left.

 

[KnowNothing256]

“The rifle is level, the mount is level...”

But how did you level the scope? It can rotate in the rings, right?

 

[Precision Underground]

The scope is round. How did you make sure the round part was level? How did you decide where to tighten the rings when the scope would still spin in the rings?

 

[Mudflap621]

Attached the rail, put the rings on, put scope in rings and lighty tight enough to move it away. Used small bubbles to check. The rifle is level, the mount is level, but when I look at the reticle, it's slightly canted to the left.

How are you verifying the scope is level?

 

[upsdownsideways]

“The rifle is level, the mount is level...”

But how did you level the scope? It can rotate in the rings, right?

Level bubble. I would tighten the rings down, and verify the reticle is straight. But when I verify it, the reticle is canted slightly to the left.

 

[upsdownsideways]

How are you verifying the scope is level?

Small bubble.

 

[upsdownsideways]

It wouldn’t be the first time a mfg shipped a reticle that was canted relative to the turret axes. If it is, you can’t fix it, and don’t want that problem.

I assume you leveled the scope by putting a bubble on the elevation turret, or something similar?

Yes.

 

[upsdownsideways]

Could the base be the issue?

 

[Mudflap621]

Try going off of the bottom of turret housing and not on the top of turret see what that yields?

 

[KnowNothing256]

Level bubble. I would tighten the rings down, and verify the reticle is straight. But when I verify it, the reticle is canted slightly to the left.

Ok, so I’m not sure that you have a mechanical issue with the scope. This sounds more like tightening the rings is rolling the scope, which is fairly common. Try rolling the scope slightly to the right before tightening, or checking the reticle repeatedly as you alternate slight tightenings on both sides of the ring.

How are you checking reticle level?

 

[upsdownsideways]

Ok, so I’m not sure that you have a mechanical issue with the scope. This sounds more like tightening the rings is rolling the scope, which is fairly common. Try rolling the scope slightly to the right before tightening, or checking the reticle repeatedly as you alternate slight tightenings on both sides of the ring.

How are you checking reticle level?

Originally, eye balling. Then a piece of string hanging. When I adjust the reticle, the bubble on the scope is not showing level.

 

[Steel head]

I always level to the reticle then test that vertical travel is plumb and tracks with reticle.

If that test fails scope needs work.

The bottom flat on scope is more accurate to use than top of the turret.

 

[KnowNothing256]

The turret caps aren’t super reliable. I would go ahead and level the rifle and the reticle simultaneously, then do a scope test at distance. You level the reticle on a plumb line, then adjust your elevation without moving anything else and verify that the reticle stays on the plumb line. If the reticle is mechanically canted inside the scope, it’ll stray away from the line as the elevation adjustment grows.

ETA: Basically, what @Steel head said.

 

[c ward]

Canted reticule in a scope is not unheard of . What scope manufacturer ? Send it back and have it replaced/repaired as previously stated above.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Canted reticule in a scope is not unheard of . What scope manufacturer ? Send it back and have it replaced/repaired as previously stated above.

Nope, don’t do this until you’ve verified that the reticle tracks improperly using a scope tall test.

 

[c ward]

If the reticule is visibly canted in relation to my turrets I am not wasting time or ammo to run a tracking test , it already failed and is going back to be replaced / repaired.

 

[KnowNothing256]

A tracking test doesn’t require ammo, it’s purely based on reticle movement against a known target (in your case, a plumb line). And yeah, that takes a little time at the range or in the backyard, but so does a warranty claim. Which is faster?

 

[LOS]

If you plumb the Ret vertical and the scope is tilted, the scope is fubar. End of story.

 

[KnowNothing256]

It’s hard to tell so far from what the OP has written if that only happens after the rings are tightened. If the reticle is canted, you don’t even need to mount the scope to see it. Set the flat of the scope center on a flat, level surface and see if the reticle lines up to a plumb or water line.

 

[Aftermath]

Optic Leveler Small

The Optic Leveler is an inexpensive, easy-to-use tool for leveling scopes mounted in rings or one-piece mounts.

arisakadefense.com

Then look at a plumb line while the rifle is level in a vise.

 

[Precision Underground]

Maybe I missed it but where are you getting the bubble to look at? Do you have a level on top of the turret or what?

Using a level on top of the turret is a terrible way to level a scope. For one it’s too small of a surface to get a good reading, and two most turrets aren’t flat or aren’t level.

 

[c ward]

A tracking test doesn’t require ammo, it’s purely based on reticle movement against a known target (in your case, a plumb line). And yeah, that takes a little time at the range or in the backyard, but so does a warranty claim. Which is faster?

Agree to disagree , a tracking test doesn't take ammo , been down the fixture route and have been bit in the ass , tracking involves both a firing and no firing component .

With the info provided, albeit incomplete and vague , the turrets and tube are level and the reticule canted . That is a no go and needs repaired / replaced . A canted reticule isn't going to uncant itself just because the center aiming point tracks .

 

[OneMoreNoMore]

Stolen from Frank on why you shouldn’t use levels to mount scopes.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

Slightly off topic, but don't forget that the scope doesn't need to be level to the rifle.

As long as the scope reticle is aligned to the vertical and the scope tracks that vertical accurately then the offset from bore centerline (within reason) doesn't matter.

To confirm/rule out a canted reticle within the scope itself, Mount your scope to a fixture and align the reticle to a plumb bob. Once aligned, dial your elevation throughout it's range. If the reticle leaves the plumb line then your reticle is canted within the scope. If your reticle maintains the plumb line then go shoot the sum bitch and stop fucking around with bubble levels.

 

[Precision Underground]

Stolen from Frank on why you shouldn’t use levels to mount scopes.
View attachment 7599253

Lol.... this ends the thread. A tiny level meant for hanging pictures is not going to anything for you when your attempting to mount a scope. Not only are most turrets not flat or level most bubble levels are not precision instruments. Plumb bob the reticle and then make sure it tracks vertically and move on.

 

[ma smith]

Lol.... this ends the thread. A tiny level meant for hanging pictures is not going to anything for you when your attempting to mount a scope. Not only are most turrets not flat or level most bubble levels are not precision instruments. Plumb bob the reticle and then make sure it tracks vertically and move on.

Not all pic rails are dead flat either...
NATO spec allows for a bit of error/tolerances

 

[6.5 GUY]

This is why I prefer to use a plumbob, door or window frame that's plum and square and eye it up..... Then I'll go out with a known load for the gun and do a tall target test @ 100 yards with a 4-5 foot plum line. If it tracks correctly I leave it, if not I'll rotate it in fractions of mm until it does. That way the reticle is in line with the bore. After that I'll pick it up and it should still look vertical, if it's off enough to visually see cant, it very well could be the scope.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

That way the reticle is in line with the bore.

That part doesn't matter, it's been done to death on here already.

Also, you don't fire a single shot during a scope tracking test either. Hell, your scope isn't even mounted to a rifle during a tracking test.

 

[6.5 GUY]

That part doesn't matter, it's been done to death on here already.

Also, you don't fire a single shot during a scope tracking test either. Hell, your scope isn't even mounted to a rifle during a tracking test.

Oh really, the guy from Downunder with all the thunder! First off I made no mention about how well or not the scope tracks.

I suppose having your bullets going left to right or right to left diagonally as you dial up at a stationary target with a 4' plum line drawn on the target vs your bullets all rising vertically as you dial is NOT important? Good luck Shootin Stuff way out there with your ideas AFTER you have mounted your scope to your barreled action.

If not done that way you'll be chasing your tail thinking it's a incorrect wind call the further out you go because you can't even see the fraction of degrees it's rotated within the rings!

But hey, roll on with what works for you. I've been doing that way for at least 25 years now and it's proven itself over and over again for me!

 

[6.5 GUY]

@Shootinstuff: Here's where you incorrectly diagnosed the very issue I stated, and you seem to think by changing windage at 100 yards zero is a fix while dialing out for shots going left to right? Good luck with that.

Help me diagnose one of my shooting flaws

My shooting is improving, but I’ve got a long way to go. I’ve been noticing that the majority of my shots impact slightly yo the right of my POI. I’m trying to be conscientious about remaining square behind the rifle, loading the bipod as well as pressing the trigger and releasing it after...

www.snipershide.com

You are giving bad dope out dude!

 

[KnowNothing256]

Oh really, the guy from Downunder with all the thunder! First off I made no mention about how well or not the scope tracks.

I suppose having your bullets going left to right or right to left diagonally as you dial up at a stationary target with a 4' plum line drawn on the target vs your bullets all rising vertically as you dial is NOT important? Good luck Shootin Stuff way out there with your ideas AFTER you have mounted your scope to your barreled action.

If not done that way you'll be chasing your tail thinking it's a incorrect wind call the further out you go because you can't even see the fraction of degrees it's rotated within the rings!

But hey, roll on with what works for you. I've been doing that way for at least 25 years now and it's proven itself over and over again for me!

Not to be a snit, but I’d wager @lowlight and gang have tested a few more scopes than you, and they don’t use ammo to do it. It’ll be obvious if the reticle moves off of a plumb line when you run the elevation during a tracking test, and using a fixture (or the rifle, locked down) eliminates shooter error and wind from the results of the tracking test.

It’s just simply incorrect to assert that you need to fire a shot to determine if a reticle is canted off of the turret axes. The reticle movement itself against a solid reference will make it clear.

 

[6.5 GUY]

@KnowNothing256: I'm fully aware of that, what you're missing is what can happen when it gets mount to your barreled action!

Look at those little bubbles resting on the base from Frank's picture.

The POA and POI tells the story..... the bullet need to go where you aim, period.

 

[KnowNothing256]

@KnowNothing256: I'm fully aware of that, what you're missing is what can happen when it gets mount to your barreled action!

Oh, sure, totally agreed that things can go haywire there too, even with a perfect scope. Just trying to eliminate variables that the OP can easily/rapidly check, so he doesn’t end up with a scope in warranty jail for weeks if it could’ve been easily avoided.

There’s still a plenty strong chance a warranty claim is necessary, but I feel like it’s not 100% for sure at this point, based on only the info in this thread.

PS: First scope I ever mounted was misaligned in the rings because I didn’t realize one of the rings had a recoil lug on it, and switched them unknowingly. Took a nice fella at the range to help me figure out why I couldn’t zero at 100.

 

[6.5 GUY]

Just remember.... the bullet does not lie, what it does, tells you what it is doing.

 

[Tokay444]

@KnowNothing256: I'm fully aware of that, what you're missing is what can happen when it gets mount to your barreled action!

Look at those little bubbles resting on the base from Frank's picture.

The POA and POI tells the story..... the bullet need to go where you aim, period.

Yes, but isolating the scope off the gun and proving it to be good (or bad), removes it as a variable as to why the shot didn't land where you'd hoped.
Trying to test scope tracking with ammo assumes everything else in the system is perfect, including the shooter, and that simply isn't common enough to be viable. Scope tracking tests are best done off the gun.
If you've proven the scope to be good with a proper off system tracking test, and your shots aren't landing where you want, it's not the scope. See how that works?

 

[Aftermath]

Precision Scope mounting | Score High Gunsmithing

Ultra precision scope mounting for long range shooting

scorehi.com

 

[Tokay444]

Scope mounting≠Scope tracking.

 

[smoothy8500]

Kind of like "ignore tracking and move the gun to match the scope" responses?

 

[6.5 GUY]

You guys are so focused on whether or not the scope is built correctly and/or does it track correctly and just assumed I threw that out the window!

Yes, the OP could have a scope reticle not plum, more than a few have been produced with that issue. Known fact, so rule that out.

Even the best scopes available, not every single one off the line is going to have 100% perfect tracking, another given.

Let's say you eliminated those variables, and/or Ok this is not perfect tracking but in the 99+% range. Send it back? Most can't shoot that well past 1,000 yards anyway. The wind will defeat you first.

My point was AFTER you mount it, what then? You notice @ 100 yard tall target test your bullets are going right to left of the 4"-5" plum line you drew, or left to right?

It's not spin drift when it's only 100 yards!

But the more you dial while using the same POA at the bottom to the target your bullets are going further and further from the plum line at a diagonal!

What then? The scope looks plum and level..... but is it? What then? Franks tool says I have perfect tracking, only now it's mounted to my gun.... and "it ain't looking so good".

What now?

Yah, i.e. You buy perfectly machined wheels, mount the best tires money can buy. They road force balanced them perfectly..... Yet you still notice you have a imbalance issue...... And low and behold your mechanic tells you the rotor's hub is not centered to your axle!

Go figure.

 

[6.5 GUY]

Precision Scope mounting | Score High Gunsmithing

Ultra precision scope mounting for long range shooting

scorehi.com

That's what I've done for over two decades without the fancy equipment, and why I tried to point out no matter what might look level and plum you better make sure your bullets are going vertically as you dial.

 

[smoothy8500]

Ok this is not perfect tracking but in the 99+% range. Send it back? Most can't shoot that well past 1,000 yards anyway. The wind will defeat you first.

You are correct, mechanical variables come into play. That 1% (or .1mil) at 1K would be nice to eliminate but realizing that it's only 4", it comes down to weighing in if that is worth the effort of getting it within that 1cm at 100yds? I guess it makes sense to shift the scope a millimeter left/right to counter that 1% if it works.

Wind reading is more of my issue with F-class LR than a 1% tracking error.

 

[SonoranPrecision]

You guys are so focused on whether or not the scope is built correctly and/or does it track correctly and just assumed I threw that out the window!

Yes, the OP could have a scope reticle not plum, more than a few have been produced with that issue. Known fact, so rule that out.

Even the best scopes available, not every single one off the line is going to have 100% perfect tracking, another given.

Let's say you eliminated those variables, and/or Ok this is not perfect tracking but in the 99+% range. Send it back? Most can't shoot that well past 1,000 yards anyway. The wind will defeat you first.

My point was AFTER you mount it, what then? You notice @ 100 yard tall target test your bullets are going right to left of the 4"-5" plum line you drew, or left to right?

It's not spin drift when it's only 100 yards!

But the more you dial while using the same POA at the bottom to the target your bullets are going further and further from the plum line at a diagonal!

What then? The scope looks plum and level..... but is it? What then? Franks tool says I have perfect tracking, only now it's mounted to my gun.... and "it ain't looking so good".

What now?

Yah, i.e. You buy perfectly machined wheels, mount the best tires money can buy. They road force balanced them perfectly..... Yet you still notice you have a imbalance issue...... And low and behold your mechanic tells you the rotor's hub is not centered to your axle!

Go figure.

Actually another user did the math on what you are describing, and it is negligible. As long as the scope tracks true to the reticle, and you keep the scope/reticle/tracking level while firing, you end up with less than 4” of horizontal drift at 1200 yards, with 10 degrees of cant in the system. I’ll attach his spread sheet for reference. With a degree or two of cant you end up with about .5” at 1200 yards. I would call that negligible.

 

[smoothy8500]

Yeah, I didn't think chasing scope-over-bore plumb/cant was a viable option to worry about.