Issues with Shoulder Bump in Custom Whidden FL Dies

[samb300]

I'm totally frustrated with trying to get a brand new custom Whidden FL sizing die set up. I'm using a Co-Ax press. I sent them 3 of my once-fired 6.5x47L cases for a custom FL sizer die, non-bushing, with the expander button set.

The issue I'm having is I can't get the bolt to close without resistance until 0.004" of shoulder setback. This number is confirmed both with the Hornady 0.375" comparator insert, as well as the provided Whidden 0.330" insert. When I set it to 0.002" it closes but has very firm resistance, and when I set it to 0.003" it closes with some drag on the bolt. (For reference it is an AX with the firing pin assembly removed for testing).

The crazy thing is, my once fired brass measures 1.470" with the Hornady gage...virgin brass measures 1.467" and obviously chambers just fine...and I need to size to 1.466" to get the brass to chamber.

What's going on? Is the sizing die not sizing the body of the case enough?

Anyone running Whidden dies experience this issue?

 

[V-Ref]

What are the dimensions of:

Body & shoulder diameter of virgin brass

Body & shoulder diameter of once fired

Body & shoulder diameter of sized cases that enable a light to no drag/friction feel when closing the bolt on fired but sized brass.

Keep in mind measuring headspace at a single datum dimension isn't the most reliable measurement method. The go gauge used to chamber your rifle had a shoulder on it, so should your measurement tool if you want your headspace measurement to be reliable, repeatable, & meaningful.

LE Wilson (and others) make a headspace depth gauge that will rule out the errors that a single point datum headspace measurement is prone too.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/12/new-case-gage-depth-micrometer-from-l-e-wilson/

Example: a potential issue is your FL sizing bushing die may not be fully sizing the area near the neck/shoulder junction. That would explain why your having to push the shoulder back further to enable the die to size that dimension of your fired cases. A depth gauge that measures along the entire angled shoulder dimension vs one single datum point would highlight this.

Hard to communicate the point in a post, hope this makes sense.

 

[918v]

Could be the sizing die leaves too much radius at the neck/shoulder joint. Your chamber might have too little radius at the neck/shoulder joint. Or maybe it's a shoulder angle mismatch.

 

[Citius7]

Be careful. Too much left unsupported may cause your webbing to stretch through each firing. Had it happen with my 6mm Comp match that wasn't.

 

[Sheldon N]

I changed from Whidden to Forster dies after calling them and asking their specs on the diameter at the base of the die. The dimension of their die at the base was a full 0.001 larger than the base of my fired brass, so it was never going to size the base of the case. Might investigate that as a possible issue.

 

[samb300]

Ok, something weird is going on. First, this is a pretty standard JGS reamer, nothing really custom except for the neck diameter and freebore. Second, the Whidden dies are full length NON-bushing dies, with the button neck ID expander. This means there is no radius on the neck/shoulder junction like you see with bushings dies. LRI did the AX barrel with the gun in hand, so it headspaced perfectly with the virgin brass I provided.

Here are the measurements I'm getting:
Virgin brass:
- Shoulder = 0.452
- Mid case dia (0.700" up from rim) = 0.461
- Base = 0.469

Once-Fired:
- Shoulder = 0.459
- Mid = 0.465
- Base = 0.471

0.002" Bump:
- Shoulder = 0.457
- Mid = 0.464
- Base = 0.471

0.004" Bump:
- Shoulder = 0.457
- Mid = 0.464
- Base = 0.471

0.006" Bump:
- Shoulder = 0.456
- Mid = 0.4635
- Base = 0.471

I also tried sizing with my stock Redding Type-S FL bushing die...and needed to bump the shoulder back 0.005" in order for the bolt to close on the sized case. The sized case dimensions were basically identical to the Whidden die, which makes me think that the die isn't the problem.

I checked my GO-Gage (which the bolt closes just fine on) and that has a base-to-shoulder measurement of 1.493", which is exactly 0.002" less than a fired case. So I end up needing to size the case to 1.491" for the bolt to close.

 

[Sheldon N]

Might be time to sharpie up a case that's 0.002 bump and open close the bolt a few times on it to see where it's rubbing.

 

[samb300]

Might be time to sharpie up a case that's 0.002 bump and open close the bolt a few times on it to see where it's rubbing.

I just did, with both the Whidden sized case and Redding sized case. I'm not really seeing much of anything, maybe a slight scuff midway up the case body.

 

[samb300]

I changed from Whidden to Forster dies after calling them and asking their specs on the diameter at the base of the die. The dimension of their die at the base was a full 0.001 larger than the base of my fired brass, so it was never going to size the base of the case. Might investigate that as a possible issue.

Have you had better luck with the FL Forster dies? Have you gotten the custom honed neck option?

Since I shoot PR type matches, my brass gets dinged up and I need a die with a neck expander, as "controversial" as it may be for those looking to eliminate runout. On paper I liked the Whidden because of the different diameter neck buttons that controlled the amount of neck tension. The Forsters seem to do a similar thing but with the neck honing and a 0.001" undersized button.

 

[V-Ref]

Can you post your reamer print

 

[Milo 2.5]

Load 10 or so sized cases, fire them and see if you get a distinct click when you raise the bolt.

 

[samb300]

Load 10 or so sized cases, fire them and see if you get a distinct click when you raise the bolt.

What would the click indicate?

 

[samb300]

Can you post your reamer print

 

[Milo 2.5]

That the base or bottom of the case is too big and not getting sized down right. You mention .471" on case head, measure 1/4" up.

 

[samb300]

That the base or bottom of the case is too big and not getting sized down right. You mention .471" on case head, measure 1/4" up.

Gotcha. I will take some more measurements tonight when I get home.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Measure, compare to reamer print, also, stick your caliper in the die mouths, and get basic idea what it will size brass down to.
I had a Whidden 6x47 die that was out of spec, threw me for quite a loop, but in your case with 2 dies?

 

[shoot4fun]

If you have the same problem with your FL die that I did with my Whidden 6 Dasher FL die then the die body is just a tiny bit too long. I was getting the same click and measuring brass told me right away that the base was not getting sized properly. In fact, my die was so long that it wouldn't bump the shoulder back on my cases. I called Whiiden, explained to them in detail the issue and told them what I thought was wrong. At first the guy said no way but had me send three fired cases and the die to them. Two days later he called in and apologized, explaining that the die body was indeed 20 thousandths too long. They corrected the issue and I had the die back the next day. GIVE WHIDDEN A CALL!

 

[Milo 2.5]

If you have the same problem with your FL die that I did with my Whidden 6 Dasher FL die then the die body is just a tiny bit too long. I was getting the same click and measuring brass told me right away that the base was not getting sized properly. In fact, my die was so long that it wouldn't bump the shoulder back on my cases. I called Whiiden, explained to them in detail the issue and told them what I thought was wrong. At first the guy said no way but had me send three fired cases and the die to them. Two days later he called in and apologized, explaining that the die body was indeed 20 thousandths too long. They corrected the issue and I had the die back the next day. GIVE WHIDDEN A CALL!

Me, or the op?
Had the same talk with a guy at Whidden, told me I was full of it too.

 

[jsthntn247]

I had two whidden dies and both were shit. Never again

 

[Sheldon N]

Have you had better luck with the FL Forster dies? Have you gotten the custom honed neck option?

Since I shoot PR type matches, my brass gets dinged up and I need a die with a neck expander, as "controversial" as it may be for those looking to eliminate runout. On paper I liked the Whidden because of the different diameter neck buttons that controlled the amount of neck tension. The Forsters seem to do a similar thing but with the neck honing and a 0.001" undersized button.

Forster dies have been perfect. I had mine custom honed neck to around 0.0035 or 0.004 under loaded neck OD. I don't use the expander button in the die, am using a 6mm Sinclair carbide expander mandrel instead (0.241 dia). I do my prep on a Dillon so it's no extra work to separate the expansion into a second die station. I'm shooting PRS matches also so I need to take out brass dings as well.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I had two whidden dies and both were shit. Never again

Whidden has suffered serious growing pains, like others in the industry, used to be top notch, bet it will again. You get a good Whidden die on a coax, it's a win.

 

[samb300]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I have a contact at Whidden and will be calling them today when I get the chance. I'm in no way bashing them, I'm just trying to figure out what's going on. This is my first set of tooling from them. Since I'm using the sizer with a Co-Ax, it is designed not to touch the shell holder when getting the proper bump. It is approximately 1/4 turn backed off of touching the shell holder, which is right in line with their setup instructions.

What's really confusing is that my Redding FL sizer is needing 0.005" bump, approximately the same as the Whidden. With my old 6.5x47L barrel - which used whatever reamer the smith had on the shelf - I was bumping 0.002" and having no issues. Now with my own personal JGS reamer I'm having this issue. Looking at the reamer print and my fired brass I'm not really seeing what the issue would be?

 

[mikehotel]

Thanks for the discussion, guys, I think I just saved myself 80 bucks.

 

[shoot4fun]

Me, or the op?
Had the same talk with a guy at Whidden, told me I was full of it too.

Oh no not specifically to anyone in particular.
I meant this to read that if ANYONE has trouble with a Whiiden die they should contact Whidden. Yes, they will give you the "no trouble here" speech but once your sure the die doesn't do what it should then be firm about sending for them to see.

 

[samb300]

I talked to Whidden, and they seemed to think the 0.004" bump was ok, but I told them since it was a custom die that I wanted a 0.002" bump to chamber properly so I'm not causing any extra work on the brass. I'll be sending the die back to them, along with a bunch of brass, to see what they think.

Hopefully it's something that can be fixed. If not, or if it will be another 3 months for a new die, I'll have my finger on the trigger for a Forster die in the hopes I would get it in time to resize the pile of brass I have for the remainder of the season.

 

[V-Ref]

Samb300

Is your reamer a removable pilot or solid pilot?

Do you have access to high quality measurement tools (not a $30 set of digital calipers). I have some too but it'll add credibility to your measurements as literally .001 makes a difference here.

I find it troubling looking at a fired case shoulder diameter that measures larger than the finish reamer print. It appears as though the "mid" measurement is larger as well, but uncertain if that was made 1.200" north of the case head.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[samb300]

Samb300

Is your reamer a removable pilot or solid pilot?

Do you have access to high quality measurement tools (not a $30 set of digital calipers). I have some too but it'll add credibility to your measurements as literally .001 makes a difference here.

I find it troubling looking at a fired case shoulder diameter that measures larger than the finish reamer print. It appears as though the "mid" measurement is larger as well, but uncertain if that was made 1.200" north of the case head.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I will take some more measurements later. I did my best to measure with a 1" micrometer, but getting the exact shoulder junction was tough, so I just tried to be consistent case to case. The "mid" measurement was an arbitrary 0.700" from the case head, I only measured there because it was approximately midway up the case body.

 

[Sheldon N]

Have you tried the sharpie on the brass trick? Should tell you more clearly where the case is rubbing.

 

[V-Ref]

I will take some more measurements later. I did my best to measure with a 1" micrometer, but getting the exact shoulder junction was tough, so I just tried to be consistent case to case. The "mid" measurement was an arbitrary 0.700" from the case head, I only measured there because it was approximately midway up the case body.

Ok

My next three questions would center around determining if in fact your fired brass diameters actually do indeed exceed the finish reamer print diameter dimensions.

Diameter of cases with several firings on them at

1. 1.200" north of case head (your reamer print has this 1.200 dimension spec'd)

2. Shoulder diameter (if it's .050 south of it it's ok)

3. Solid pilot or removable bushing pilot reamer

 

[samb300]

Ok

My next three questions would center around determining if in fact your fired brass diameters actually do indeed exceed the finish reamer print diameter dimensions.

Diameter of cases with several firings on them at

1. 1.200" north of case head (your reamer print has this 1.200 dimension spec'd)

2. Shoulder diameter (if it's .050 south of it it's ok)

3. Solid pilot or removable bushing pilot reamer

1. At 1.200" (as best as I can measure) the fired brass is right at the 0.460" that the print shows, and the 0.004" bumped case is right at 0.459".

2. The shoulder measurements provided before are about the best I can get with the 1" mic. The print shows a shoulder dia. of 0.458, and the once fired brass is measuring about 0.459" a little bit lower than the shoulder (maybe ~0.050" lower). The important thing is the sized cases are 0.002" smaller in dia. at the shoulder.

3. It is a floating bushing reamer.

 

[samb300]

Have you tried the sharpie on the brass trick? Should tell you more clearly where the case is rubbing.

I tried this yesterday both with the Whidden sized cases and a Redding sized case. No smoking gun there, maybe a little scuff from the case base to the midway point, but nothing that stood out.

 

[V-Ref]

LE wilson will take 3 pieces of several times fired brass and hone you out a FL Bushing die as well if Whidden won't make this right.

The shoulder diameter of fired cases shouldn't exceed the reamer print dimension.

 

[Supersubes]

Do your cases come out of the chamber normally? No sticky bolt or bumping the extractor cam? Have you calibrated your 1" mic lately?

 

[samb300]

Do your cases come out of the chamber normally? No sticky bolt or bumping the extractor cam? Have you calibrated your 1" mic lately?

I've fired approximately 800 rounds of virgin brass, and all extracted normally with little effort from the AI bolt. I'm running a mild load of 140s at 2730fps out of the 6.5x47L.

It's a new RCBS mic...haven't calibrated it but I'm not sure why there would be any issues comparing virgin to fired to sized cases all with the same mic.

 

[Supersubes]

Agreed, the difference between those two is important. I was more addressing the reamer dimensions to fired case dimensions.

 

[darkhorse95]

sounds like a similar problem I had but disnt resolve.

When i first got my whidden FL bushing die .002 was doing the same thing and it shot like crap. Virgin lapua brass was giving me .3 and .4in 5 shot groups and the once fired and resized brass was near an inch some times. I was pissed. Emailed whidden and he told me to size it with a .005-.006 set back. After trying that my groups are better, maybe .6in 5 shot groups now. The die seems to be very well finished but i dont see why i shouldnt be able to do a .002 set back and get the same or better accuracy than virgin brass.

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[samb300]

sounds like a similar problem I had but disnt resolve.

When i first got my whidden FL bushing die .002 was doing the same thing and it shot like crap. Virgin lapua brass was giving me .3 and .4in 5 shot groups and the once fired and resized brass was near an inch some times. I was pissed. Emailed whidden and he told me to size it with a .005-.006 set back. After trying that my groups are better, maybe .6in 5 shot groups now. The die seems to be very well finished but i dont see why i shouldnt be able to do a .002 set back and get the same or better accuracy than virgin brass.

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Well that's not exactly encouraging.

The die is in the mail back to them, I guess we'll see what happens. If the answer is "just bump it back 0.004" I will look into a different die.

 

[Sheldon N]

No kidding... that's a terrible answer. Your brass would die a premature death from case head separation.

 

[padom]

I tried 1 Whidden die which was last year for 6.5x47L and lets just say it was returned for a full refund the day I got it.

I have zero issues bumping back brass .001, .002, .003, etc. with my honed Forster FL dies. That's all I use these days.

 

[darkhorse95]

Brass growth from my .260 shows im sizing it down 5-6 thou to get proper consistancy and accuracy from it. The problem is my case heads in lapua brass lasted 6-7 firings before i called them retired. My alpha brass has 2 firings on them and look good so far but thats only 2 firings. Do i get crap accuracy or bad case life? Thats my choice. I think im going to call and see it cant be resolved. While this is a big problem i will note that the die is finished very well and seems of high quality.....but its not doing its damn job. Its like owning a nice car that breaks all the time. Time to throw the pretty lemon away.

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