I need some advise on jackets. I would like one that is pack able, warm and durable that won't break the bank. I would like to use it as a layer under a hard/soft shell or alone if its not pouring rain. I know down is warm and packs small but if it gets wet your screwed. I have heard Primaloft and climashield are warm when wet but not as warm as down or as pack able. So what do you suggest?
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Jacket help
- Thread starter redrum007
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Re: Jacket help
KUIU has a primaloft insulation layer that's pretty reasonable. It packs small and is warm under a shell. They run deals on their non-camo gear from time to time as well.
KUIU has a primaloft insulation layer that's pretty reasonable. It packs small and is warm under a shell. They run deals on their non-camo gear from time to time as well.
Re: Jacket help
There's some good info and included links on this topic/to answer your questions in the thread Jacket Insulation Question One of the links within the thread is Warm Packable Coat which should be of help. The jacket models might have changed slightly, or be a touch dated, but... it's a good place to get some info & also ideas on who makes good gear.
There's some good info and included links on this topic/to answer your questions in the thread Jacket Insulation Question One of the links within the thread is Warm Packable Coat which should be of help. The jacket models might have changed slightly, or be a touch dated, but... it's a good place to get some info & also ideas on who makes good gear.
Re: Jacket help
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TCB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I need some advise on jackets. I would like one that is pack able, warm and durable that won't break the bank. I would like to use it as a layer under a hard/soft shell or alone if its not pouring rain. I know down is warm and packs small but if it gets wet your screwed. I have heard Primaloft and climashield are warm when wet but not as warm as down or as pack able. So what do you suggest? </div></div>
Primaloft 1 is the gold standard for synthetic insulation. It has the same CLO rating as down; ounce for ounce same warmth, in fact it is slightly higher than down but so minute its does not really bare mention. Prima main draw back is it so small in diameter and slick that it requires a scrim to secure it into a garment meaning this adds weight. The scrims weight is negligible but pushes the weight higher than down. If you sew up two identical jackets with everything the same but one is down and the other Prima 1, only a postal scale could tell the difference. Prima is chemically changed to actually repel water, no other insulation has this property. Prima cannot absorb water while other synthetics can, its very minute but they can absorb water into the fiber.
Primaloft 2 or Sport has less CLO but but does not require the scrim.
There is a reason Prima 1 has not changed since 86 and every other new synthetic insulation compares itself to Prima, then changes again and compares, changes again, compares, repeat for 30+ years now.
I prefer WildThings and Integral Designs. Up on the scale for kit but kit for me was my life, it had to perform or I could not.
Down does drape around the body better than synthetics and is more comfortable over a wider temp rage than synthetics. So wearing a down jacket in warmer temps than synthetics means the body is more regulated core for outside temps. Stuff sacks tend to be smaller too, not by much though. But for clothing that is exposed to weather, been there and done that so I use nothing but Prima. Heard all the talk, never ever got my down wet so its a mute point. Could be but I have and have had friends in survival situations with down and synthetics. Synthetics only please.
Patagonia is good, Mountain Yardware, Marmot, and now a host of cheaper kit that all work.
Another option to consider is Marmots Driclim. Its bi-synthetic inner with a nylon soft shell and does superb as a base, mid and outer layer.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TCB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I need some advise on jackets. I would like one that is pack able, warm and durable that won't break the bank. I would like to use it as a layer under a hard/soft shell or alone if its not pouring rain. I know down is warm and packs small but if it gets wet your screwed. I have heard Primaloft and climashield are warm when wet but not as warm as down or as pack able. So what do you suggest? </div></div>
Primaloft 1 is the gold standard for synthetic insulation. It has the same CLO rating as down; ounce for ounce same warmth, in fact it is slightly higher than down but so minute its does not really bare mention. Prima main draw back is it so small in diameter and slick that it requires a scrim to secure it into a garment meaning this adds weight. The scrims weight is negligible but pushes the weight higher than down. If you sew up two identical jackets with everything the same but one is down and the other Prima 1, only a postal scale could tell the difference. Prima is chemically changed to actually repel water, no other insulation has this property. Prima cannot absorb water while other synthetics can, its very minute but they can absorb water into the fiber.
Primaloft 2 or Sport has less CLO but but does not require the scrim.
There is a reason Prima 1 has not changed since 86 and every other new synthetic insulation compares itself to Prima, then changes again and compares, changes again, compares, repeat for 30+ years now.
I prefer WildThings and Integral Designs. Up on the scale for kit but kit for me was my life, it had to perform or I could not.
Down does drape around the body better than synthetics and is more comfortable over a wider temp rage than synthetics. So wearing a down jacket in warmer temps than synthetics means the body is more regulated core for outside temps. Stuff sacks tend to be smaller too, not by much though. But for clothing that is exposed to weather, been there and done that so I use nothing but Prima. Heard all the talk, never ever got my down wet so its a mute point. Could be but I have and have had friends in survival situations with down and synthetics. Synthetics only please.
Patagonia is good, Mountain Yardware, Marmot, and now a host of cheaper kit that all work.
Another option to consider is Marmots Driclim. Its bi-synthetic inner with a nylon soft shell and does superb as a base, mid and outer layer.
Re: Jacket help
I love the Snugpak jackets that I have, one is reversible OD/black and the other is just black. I wore the reversible through half of my deployment in Afghanistan and it never let me down. It packed down to a 1/3 the size of the fleece jacket was easily twice as warm with better wind resistance, which was great for chilly nights in the OP. When I coupled the Snugpak jacket with my Goretex top or wet weather top it was a awesome combination for wet, cold weather conditions. I guess the only downside that I can find with the two Snugpak jackets is a lack of pit zips for ventilation.
I love the Snugpak jackets that I have, one is reversible OD/black and the other is just black. I wore the reversible through half of my deployment in Afghanistan and it never let me down. It packed down to a 1/3 the size of the fleece jacket was easily twice as warm with better wind resistance, which was great for chilly nights in the OP. When I coupled the Snugpak jacket with my Goretex top or wet weather top it was a awesome combination for wet, cold weather conditions. I guess the only downside that I can find with the two Snugpak jackets is a lack of pit zips for ventilation.
Re: Jacket help
I see that Primaloft comes in different weights, would I be better going for the thicker stuff? Also I can't find what insulation Snugpak uses, Primaloft perhaps??
I see that Primaloft comes in different weights, would I be better going for the thicker stuff? Also I can't find what insulation Snugpak uses, Primaloft perhaps??
Re: Jacket help
Would the Cabela's Teewinot jacket be a good one on a budget?
http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=1214721
Would the Cabela's Teewinot jacket be a good one on a budget?
http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=1214721
Re: Jacket help
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TCB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see that Primaloft comes in different weights, would I be better going for the thicker stuff? Also I can't find what insulation Snugpak uses, Primaloft perhaps?? </div></div>
Snugpak, I do not remember everything about them but I think they use a propitiatory insulation similar to Primaloft meaning its a short staple. Its not as small micron as Primaloft so the CLO is not as high, warmth to weight is not as high and it does not compress as well. I believe they use a resin to hold it together but again, I could be way off as I really have to internal beta from them.
Primloft is measured in weight like down and used in batts. Its a short staple fiber manufactured in a spider web. Each staple is something like 2" in length and .05 microns in diameter. Used like down but a scrim must be sewn in to keep the Prima in place, think of a baffle in a sleeping bag but a scrim is sewn to the insulation or it will fall to the bottom due to its super fineness and slickness. Sport is layered to gain addition warmth. If you want a 40 degree bag, 1 layer of 3 oz Prima is used, 0 degree would be 3 layers of 3oz or 2.5 layers of 4oz. usually the half layer is just over the body core on top, waist to chest. Same goes with jackets, 3 layers of 6oz would be an arctic parka for -50f, 40f jacket would be 1 layer of 3oz or 4oz.
In its infancy, Primaloft was frowned upon as not being warm due to its small short stable very thin fibers. Laying two sleeping bags of 20f temp rating side by side, the Prima would not be as lofty as Holofill and the others and it was too light to be as warm. No matter how it was described, the buying public just could not get how warm it was for the weight. Plus it was more costly to manufacture so it cost near what down bag did. Things have change somewhat, most consumers and retailers still do not understand Primaloft and its performance but it has has gone from being an exclusive high end only market to price point kit and the cost has come down or the other guys have come up trying to compete and their manufacturing cost near the same as Prima.
Disclaimer, yes I was a sponsored guide in Alaska by Albany Mills / Primaloft in the 90s and my guiding company and name was on their hang tags and web site. And I am out of that business and have no real contact with them anymore and my feeble mind has lost its way on many things.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TCB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see that Primaloft comes in different weights, would I be better going for the thicker stuff? Also I can't find what insulation Snugpak uses, Primaloft perhaps?? </div></div>
Snugpak, I do not remember everything about them but I think they use a propitiatory insulation similar to Primaloft meaning its a short staple. Its not as small micron as Primaloft so the CLO is not as high, warmth to weight is not as high and it does not compress as well. I believe they use a resin to hold it together but again, I could be way off as I really have to internal beta from them.
Primloft is measured in weight like down and used in batts. Its a short staple fiber manufactured in a spider web. Each staple is something like 2" in length and .05 microns in diameter. Used like down but a scrim must be sewn in to keep the Prima in place, think of a baffle in a sleeping bag but a scrim is sewn to the insulation or it will fall to the bottom due to its super fineness and slickness. Sport is layered to gain addition warmth. If you want a 40 degree bag, 1 layer of 3 oz Prima is used, 0 degree would be 3 layers of 3oz or 2.5 layers of 4oz. usually the half layer is just over the body core on top, waist to chest. Same goes with jackets, 3 layers of 6oz would be an arctic parka for -50f, 40f jacket would be 1 layer of 3oz or 4oz.
In its infancy, Primaloft was frowned upon as not being warm due to its small short stable very thin fibers. Laying two sleeping bags of 20f temp rating side by side, the Prima would not be as lofty as Holofill and the others and it was too light to be as warm. No matter how it was described, the buying public just could not get how warm it was for the weight. Plus it was more costly to manufacture so it cost near what down bag did. Things have change somewhat, most consumers and retailers still do not understand Primaloft and its performance but it has has gone from being an exclusive high end only market to price point kit and the cost has come down or the other guys have come up trying to compete and their manufacturing cost near the same as Prima.
Disclaimer, yes I was a sponsored guide in Alaska by Albany Mills / Primaloft in the 90s and my guiding company and name was on their hang tags and web site. And I am out of that business and have no real contact with them anymore and my feeble mind has lost its way on many things.
Re: Jacket help
Snugpak uses one of 2 variations of Softie: a resin bound polyester yarn as mentioned earlier.
As far as an insulation layer, it's hard to go wrong with Primaloft.
That being said, I went with a MontBell thermawrap UL for a light packable insulation jacket. Their Thermawrap BC is a little more robust in terms of materials. Montbell uses Exceloft which is polyester yarn held together by polyester thread.
When I need something warmer, I'll use a Snugpak sleeka.
Snugpak uses one of 2 variations of Softie: a resin bound polyester yarn as mentioned earlier.
As far as an insulation layer, it's hard to go wrong with Primaloft.
That being said, I went with a MontBell thermawrap UL for a light packable insulation jacket. Their Thermawrap BC is a little more robust in terms of materials. Montbell uses Exceloft which is polyester yarn held together by polyester thread.
When I need something warmer, I'll use a Snugpak sleeka.
Re: Jacket help
Another vote for the arcteryx Atom jacket light, packable, warm, and synthetic.
My other recommendation would be the patagoina down sweater if you don't plan on it getting wet. It does have a pertex outer so it is pretty water resistant by it's self.
Another vote for the arcteryx Atom jacket light, packable, warm, and synthetic.
My other recommendation would be the patagoina down sweater if you don't plan on it getting wet. It does have a pertex outer so it is pretty water resistant by it's self.
Re: Jacket help
I would love to have the Atom but can't afford the coin for it right now. I need something to get me by for a year or three. I came across the Cabelas Teewinot jacket which got me thinking. I have decided against down because of moisture. I kicked around a 300 weight fleece but its not as pack-able, same with wool.
I would love to have the Atom but can't afford the coin for it right now. I need something to get me by for a year or three. I came across the Cabelas Teewinot jacket which got me thinking. I have decided against down because of moisture. I kicked around a 300 weight fleece but its not as pack-able, same with wool.
Re: Jacket help
If plan to buy the Atom step up and go with WildThings. I know dead bird gets all the love here but WT is superior. Dead bird is good kit and I was sponsored by them for a season but if I had to spend my hard earned nuggets, WT my first choice since I have abuse both brands.
Wool, so old school. I still prefer a good wool jacket like a Filson or heavy wool sweater. For many years I wore Norwegian, Swiss and Austrian Army wool trousers with Norwegian being the best. Brit or Scott commando wool sweater is still one of my fav pieces. But, it soaks up so much water and takes a very long time to dry and its heavy to pack and stuff.
Montbell with mixed results. Good and light but it was not very warm or durable.
Search for Patagonia outlet Puff series. One of the best pieces out there for the price and finding a blem at an outlet will save you. I still have my first one, an original Puff, my Pat rep says send in and I will replace it with new, no way even though the zipper is gone and I have the holes stitched and glued closed.
Check second hand shops.
Or just go with a cheapo knock off from local mass corp retailer. Save some nuggets and work just fine, prob wont last as long but good enough.
Fleece to me is a no go. While its warm with a shell and dries quickly, a light weight puff with a micro shell just performs better and is lighter. And windstopper fleece is worse. My son still wears my original carpet fleece fishing jacket mid 70s, wears like iron but looks so bad.
If plan to buy the Atom step up and go with WildThings. I know dead bird gets all the love here but WT is superior. Dead bird is good kit and I was sponsored by them for a season but if I had to spend my hard earned nuggets, WT my first choice since I have abuse both brands.
Wool, so old school. I still prefer a good wool jacket like a Filson or heavy wool sweater. For many years I wore Norwegian, Swiss and Austrian Army wool trousers with Norwegian being the best. Brit or Scott commando wool sweater is still one of my fav pieces. But, it soaks up so much water and takes a very long time to dry and its heavy to pack and stuff.
Montbell with mixed results. Good and light but it was not very warm or durable.
Search for Patagonia outlet Puff series. One of the best pieces out there for the price and finding a blem at an outlet will save you. I still have my first one, an original Puff, my Pat rep says send in and I will replace it with new, no way even though the zipper is gone and I have the holes stitched and glued closed.
Check second hand shops.
Or just go with a cheapo knock off from local mass corp retailer. Save some nuggets and work just fine, prob wont last as long but good enough.
Fleece to me is a no go. While its warm with a shell and dries quickly, a light weight puff with a micro shell just performs better and is lighter. And windstopper fleece is worse. My son still wears my original carpet fleece fishing jacket mid 70s, wears like iron but looks so bad.
Re: Jacket help
45.308, check this out, KUIU has came out with a water proofed down. What are your thoughts on something like this?
http://blog.kuiu.com/2012/11/01/introducing-super-down-an-insulation-revolution/
45.308, check this out, KUIU has came out with a water proofed down. What are your thoughts on something like this?
http://blog.kuiu.com/2012/11/01/introducing-super-down-an-insulation-revolution/
Re: Jacket help
It has been tried before with some success. I am sure it has gotten better but for me, I still prefer synthetic with Prima being #1. Laying in a bolt hole, snow cave, falling snain and wind or chance of dipped in the river days or miles in the backcountry which I have all these t shirts, down by any name and source is not for me. Opinions vary though, mine come from experience.
It has been tried before with some success. I am sure it has gotten better but for me, I still prefer synthetic with Prima being #1. Laying in a bolt hole, snow cave, falling snain and wind or chance of dipped in the river days or miles in the backcountry which I have all these t shirts, down by any name and source is not for me. Opinions vary though, mine come from experience.
