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JP Enterprises vs. Larue Tactical
- Thread starter jsmythe
- Start date
I am not going to comment about most of what's going back and forth in this thread other than to say that the ONLY reason anyone would even think that Larue vs. JP is a reasonable comparison is marketing.
Mark Larue is a total douche, but by sending out his rubs, paying Barfcom to host his forum and ban people who say bad things about him, and by sending out his stickers that say things like "God bless our troops, especially our snipers" he has effectively convinced people of things that aren't even true. I am reminded fondly of when Lowlight tested his scope mounts and discovered that they don't hold zero. Those were the same mounts that Mark Larue and his fanboys, for years, claimed were the cream of the crop and that other manufacturers who sought to market and sell cantilever AR rifle scope mounts were "stealing" his "idea" (as if one can own an idea.
It has already been said in this thread: JP is among the most innovative companies that has ever produced ARs. The SWAT team here in my city uses them. Competition shooters love them and that matters because nobody shoots as much as those who compete with firearms.
The fanboys can believe whatever they want about Mark Larue and his company. Don't get me wrong, he makes some decent stuff. But he's not without competition and not even in the same league as JP. The only reason anyone would think otherwise is that they bought or have seen his products due to his marketing.
There's nothing wrong with that but those who care about performance already have a JP and probably aren't reading this.
And no, I don't own, and can't afford, a JP. But I would love to and my (wealthier) friends do. As do the aforementioned SWAT members.
Mark Larue is a total douche, but by sending out his rubs, paying Barfcom to host his forum and ban people who say bad things about him, and by sending out his stickers that say things like "God bless our troops, especially our snipers" he has effectively convinced people of things that aren't even true. I am reminded fondly of when Lowlight tested his scope mounts and discovered that they don't hold zero. Those were the same mounts that Mark Larue and his fanboys, for years, claimed were the cream of the crop and that other manufacturers who sought to market and sell cantilever AR rifle scope mounts were "stealing" his "idea" (as if one can own an idea.
It has already been said in this thread: JP is among the most innovative companies that has ever produced ARs. The SWAT team here in my city uses them. Competition shooters love them and that matters because nobody shoots as much as those who compete with firearms.
The fanboys can believe whatever they want about Mark Larue and his company. Don't get me wrong, he makes some decent stuff. But he's not without competition and not even in the same league as JP. The only reason anyone would think otherwise is that they bought or have seen his products due to his marketing.
There's nothing wrong with that but those who care about performance already have a JP and probably aren't reading this.
And no, I don't own, and can't afford, a JP. But I would love to and my (wealthier) friends do. As do the aforementioned SWAT members.
Survivalists are generally anti government right wingers. There are also left wing extremists like the unibomber, I don't care for either side. But your point is taken regardless of his politics he is a POS. The point of the post is that LEO's have a dangerous job and we also need access to good tools such as patrol rifles. Also plenty of people have shown their inner child in this thread and I admit I am no exception. Now lets move on.
Pat
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If you can't afford JP, it means you can't afford Larue 7.62 rifles, which means your arguments are useless. How can you say JP is another league? I've owned both, they shoot similarly, and fit finish is about the same.
Understood. This kind of talk just feeds into the media narrative that all gun people and those that choose to prepare in some form or another are "right wing extremists".
Perhaps he has shot examples of each. You don't have to own something to have an opinion on it.
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How can you say JP is another league if you haven't owned either? Pretty crazy if you ask me...It's like me arguing a Ferrari v Lamborghini discussion. I don't own either, so I stay out of it. Pretty fuckin simple
Not to be argumentative but say his friends on the SWAT team let him shoot their rifles and perhaps he has shot larue guns as well. I shoot a lot of three gun and its normal for us to let a new shooter try our rifles in a sight in bay to see if they like the set up.
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Driving a Lamborghini a couple laps at the Las Vegas Speedway, doesn't make me an expert on one....
Exotics Racing at Las Vegas Motor Speedway
I cant comment on the larue but my jp ctr-02 shoots exceptional. I recently participated in a black hat sniper training in which they do a usmc unknown distance challenge with half size targets out to 750 yards. I had no trouble hitting the targets in either of the timed courses. 223 doesn't hit steel very hard at 750 or more so impact is hard to hear. I tried pushing it beyond out to 1050 and that was a little different.
How can you say JP is in another league? Simple. They offer things that nobody else offers, and they were the first to do so. Larue is a poser compared to JP. Even if I hadn't seen his products in person, you REALLY expect me to believe that Larue enters the market years after JP is offering lightweight (even experimenting with aluminum!) bcgs, adjustable gas systems, etc., that Larue has caught and passed JP in performance? That's like me opening up my own car company tomorrow and expecting to compete with the supercars of the world. Experience matters. JP's rifles are favored by competitors and worth the price because they produce something out of the box that performs.
I probably could afford a JP if I didn't try to compete in so many different types of shooting sports. Rather than having the best equipment for all of them I have to settle for decent equipment and I get to shoot more of them.
There are plenty of companies making ARs, and many making good ones. JP is in a class by itself because it offers things nobody else offers, and has been doing so for a long time.
Only reason anyone has heard of Larue is that he convinced everyone that his mounts were being used by every specops troop on the planet, and then shortly thereafter the government opened up the coffers and issued an NSN to anyone who wanted to sell anything. I'm sure there's an NSN for tactical toilet paper somewhere. Once that happened, all the companies had to do was ride that marketing train all the way to the top. RRA did the same thing after they sold a few rifles to the FBI. But of all in the industry, Larue is probably the king of marketing. That man could probably sell ice to eskimos, but not to me. Although my friends do buy his crap.
I probably could afford a JP if I didn't try to compete in so many different types of shooting sports. Rather than having the best equipment for all of them I have to settle for decent equipment and I get to shoot more of them.
There are plenty of companies making ARs, and many making good ones. JP is in a class by itself because it offers things nobody else offers, and has been doing so for a long time.
Only reason anyone has heard of Larue is that he convinced everyone that his mounts were being used by every specops troop on the planet, and then shortly thereafter the government opened up the coffers and issued an NSN to anyone who wanted to sell anything. I'm sure there's an NSN for tactical toilet paper somewhere. Once that happened, all the companies had to do was ride that marketing train all the way to the top. RRA did the same thing after they sold a few rifles to the FBI. But of all in the industry, Larue is probably the king of marketing. That man could probably sell ice to eskimos, but not to me. Although my friends do buy his crap.
In the automotive industry, Hyundai used to be trash to many, now its a real competitor
No one said Larue passed JP. The other dude started it by saying JP is much better, it's not. Both have Pros and cons, depending on the end user. Unless you've owned and used both, I feel you can say, "yes, X is better than Y, but for my purpose."
I had no complaints with my LRP. I ended up buying an OBR during the scare, and it was too heavy for me at the time, compared to my LRP. One night, I decided to sell both and bought a bolt action. In between that time, I shot many 308AR rifles from other range members. A PredatOBR came up for sale, I pulled the trigger, mostly b/c I can break it down and change barrels within a minute, just like my new AXMC and DTA SRS. To this day, I miss the side charging feature of my old LRP every time I shoot my OBR.
In sum, every rifle I buy, was bought for a purpose. Although, I didn't fully believe my test target at .4XX", I am a true believer now. It has shot as good as any other rifle I have owned and shot, b/c of my limitations, not the rifles.
This will be my last comment on this topic, as its going no where. I'm going to try and make love to my partner right now. See ya
Good barrel, good trigger, good ammunition, good optics. No need for fancy BCG's or Mark Larue.
I own/have owned both: 3 JP, and 2 Larue. The Larue OBR was the most accurate of any of these particular sticks, and build quality was at the very least on par with JP, and to my personal thought, a tic better.
Also.. I'm no Larue or ML fanboi, so we can get that out of the way right now. I've personally been critical of him on a number of occasion, but the fact remains his company engineers some very high-quality equipment; and I've found their CS pretty outstanding when push comes to shove with an item you own (though their comms blackouts border on ridiculous when it comes to timetables/info on new releases). And though his mount are admittedly not my first choice, every one I've owned, holds/returns to zero perfectly.
As of now, only 1 JP remains in this stable; though I continue to use, and be extremely pleased with the 2 Larue's I still own.
YMMV
I said let's not turn it into that. Nice try though on the spin with it being my fault if it goes that way...
How can you say JP is another league if you haven't owned either? Pretty crazy if you ask me...It's like me arguing a Ferrari v Lamborghini discussion. I don't own either, so I stay out of it. Pretty fuckin simple
But if you've driven both and tested the performance you're experience is invalid? Really?
Add: I know a lot of people who have shot more rifles then most of us collectively. Does that mean their opinion is invalid of any particular one just because they didn't own it? Your logic is flawed...
*EDIT*
I'll take a lesson in class like 355sigfan did and just bow out of this and take this back to original topic.
I like my Larue OBR... the fact that it shoots 1/2 moa groups consistently with factory match amazes me.
I have no doubt JP would do just as well given their reputation.
I too think Mark is a bit of a jerk, and i also think his mounts suck, but his rifles are some of the best period.
I don't think you could go wrong either way... and arguing which is better is pretty silly imo.
I'll take a lesson in class like 355sigfan did and just bow out of this and take this back to original topic.
I like my Larue OBR... the fact that it shoots 1/2 moa groups consistently with factory match amazes me.
I have no doubt JP would do just as well given their reputation.
I too think Mark is a bit of a jerk, and i also think his mounts suck, but his rifles are some of the best period.
I don't think you could go wrong either way... and arguing which is better is pretty silly imo.
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Thing I liked about the JP's.
Handguard Diameter
Action smoothness
LMOS (somewhat)
Overall build quality.
Then I hunted with one. The hand guard is frigidly cold to hang onto for hours in the Maine woods in November, Mine did not have the upgraded MU upper, and pine needles, leaves a shit managed to find its way into the rifle. Something about the shape of the Brake seemed to catch every twig in the woods.
Side charge--as much as I loved it at first, I found myself hitting my knuckles on my QD levers for my scope mount, accentuated with gloves on. The manual of arms just didn't fit me.
JP barrels---they are Wilson barrels that JP finishes. They are cryoed and somehow thermal fit. I was told by JP CS that I shouldn't remove my barrel to cerakote or dip the gun, as it will affect its accuracy.
LMOS/Adj Gas block--I personally had troubles getting it "tuned". I also ended up not liking the socket screw for adjustment.
JP Recievers--As far as I know are not manufactured by JP.
Things I love about Larue:
I have had nothing but fantastic experiences with Larue Customer Service.
I truly love their Predatar and Prodatobr rail designs. They fit my hand very well. I also like that they have the GAP panels, plastic is much easier to keep warm to the hand.
The fact they make their own in house barrel now, that are insane accurate. That are not "thermal" fitted.
They make their own lowers/uppers.
Their PST switchblock design for suppressor use. A simple left or right lever.
The complete takedown capability of the Predatobr.
Their trigger choices.
Use of non proprietary BCG parts in the 556 rifles.
Overall Build Quality.
Both Companies build a fine product, I proudly have a JP and Larue sticker on my Jeep.
These are just my 2 cents of why I switched to Larue and have not looked back. Their is a lot of bad info in this thread as others have mentioned. But I saw no one who posted their personal pro's/cons.
Handguard Diameter
Action smoothness
LMOS (somewhat)
Overall build quality.
Then I hunted with one. The hand guard is frigidly cold to hang onto for hours in the Maine woods in November, Mine did not have the upgraded MU upper, and pine needles, leaves a shit managed to find its way into the rifle. Something about the shape of the Brake seemed to catch every twig in the woods.
Side charge--as much as I loved it at first, I found myself hitting my knuckles on my QD levers for my scope mount, accentuated with gloves on. The manual of arms just didn't fit me.
JP barrels---they are Wilson barrels that JP finishes. They are cryoed and somehow thermal fit. I was told by JP CS that I shouldn't remove my barrel to cerakote or dip the gun, as it will affect its accuracy.
LMOS/Adj Gas block--I personally had troubles getting it "tuned". I also ended up not liking the socket screw for adjustment.
JP Recievers--As far as I know are not manufactured by JP.
Things I love about Larue:
I have had nothing but fantastic experiences with Larue Customer Service.
I truly love their Predatar and Prodatobr rail designs. They fit my hand very well. I also like that they have the GAP panels, plastic is much easier to keep warm to the hand.
The fact they make their own in house barrel now, that are insane accurate. That are not "thermal" fitted.
They make their own lowers/uppers.
Their PST switchblock design for suppressor use. A simple left or right lever.
The complete takedown capability of the Predatobr.
Their trigger choices.
Use of non proprietary BCG parts in the 556 rifles.
Overall Build Quality.
Both Companies build a fine product, I proudly have a JP and Larue sticker on my Jeep.
These are just my 2 cents of why I switched to Larue and have not looked back. Their is a lot of bad info in this thread as others have mentioned. But I saw no one who posted their personal pro's/cons.
Way to turn it around, good job.
Larue:
I liked how accurate it was, 1/2 to 1 moa on a good day.
It was well built to an extent. To me it was a precision milspec gun if that makes sense.
It was simple, put it together, suppress/unsuppress gas reg and shoot.
Held value well.
Solid monolithic rail and handguard attachment to receiver.
If a part legitimately broke, they made it right.
What I didn't like...
They wouldn't sell or replace parts unless it was broken or out of spec. For example the qd mounts ate the crap out of the rail, they wouldn't replace it unless it was truly broken and I offered my kidney to pay for it. Basically it would have to catastrophically fail to get replaced. Needless to say, after that my scope mount turned into a fancy permanent mount with levers.
I wanted to send the gun out, have it cerakoted, then ship to larue for it to be specced out and a barrel change all on my dime to ensure proper rebuild. Wouldn't do it. Not even specced after coating at a projected 10k rounds.
After about 1000 rounds I noticed a very annoying wiggle in upper/lower, which reminded me of my work guns. Couldn't live with it, refused to use a accuwedge in a larue...
No more military discount.
Jp
What I like..
Although the barrels are probably similar in accuracy, I feel the jp is more accurate because I can tune it, low mass bolt, and very minimal felt recoil. I haven't shot above 1 moa with it yet, 1/2 moa on a good day.
This gun was built for long range shooting, so I'm a huge fan of the side charge. I forgot to mention that charging the obr from the prone was annoying. I could've charged it before I laid down, but whatever. It was still annoying.
Will be very unlikely if I shoot anything other than a jp single stage trigger again in a personal precision rifle. It has ruined me.
The gun is very well built. 300 rounds and I still have to knock the pins out with a wooden dowel. No movement at all in any of the parts.
At the end of the day if I called and asked jp to strip and spec my gun and recerakote it the same color, I'm sure they would.
I'm not worried about a test target either, I think it's more of a quiet professional thing to just know the guns you build are capable of producing half moa groups, you don't need to send a test target to prove that it can do it. I also feel like the larue test target is a disclaimer, or proof for court because my test target was a scanned copy. just to say "it did this before it left my shop here is the proof." I'm certain if you called Dustin and asked him to put 5 rounds on paper for you he would.
Huge military discount.
What I don't like abot jp
Specifically the lrp 07 with low mass bolt, the forward assist is useless. Id rather have the older model with the removable(?) brass deflector. Not a biggie though. With a regular bolt it's functional. Tuning the reg at the start of owning this gun, I'm anal and want as minimal movement in the bcg as possible. I know I can open for reliability, but I tinker. So I'm still smoothing things out while I figure loads. The obr will eat anything, but because you can't fine tune. Double edge sword.
I wish the top rail was monolithic.
The gas reg for the medium contour barrel is aluminum, not steel.
All in all, I think I've been blessed to own both. I did knowingly sell the larue to buy a jp, with little to no regret at all. I'm happy with my decision. While the larue may out of the box seem more reliable due to simplicity, you can build a jp or tune it to shoot anything. That's the beauty of it. I think they make a reg that has 2 positions now too, featured on their rsass with Remington. Hope this helps.
Larue:
I liked how accurate it was, 1/2 to 1 moa on a good day.
It was well built to an extent. To me it was a precision milspec gun if that makes sense.
It was simple, put it together, suppress/unsuppress gas reg and shoot.
Held value well.
Solid monolithic rail and handguard attachment to receiver.
If a part legitimately broke, they made it right.
What I didn't like...
They wouldn't sell or replace parts unless it was broken or out of spec. For example the qd mounts ate the crap out of the rail, they wouldn't replace it unless it was truly broken and I offered my kidney to pay for it. Basically it would have to catastrophically fail to get replaced. Needless to say, after that my scope mount turned into a fancy permanent mount with levers.
I wanted to send the gun out, have it cerakoted, then ship to larue for it to be specced out and a barrel change all on my dime to ensure proper rebuild. Wouldn't do it. Not even specced after coating at a projected 10k rounds.
After about 1000 rounds I noticed a very annoying wiggle in upper/lower, which reminded me of my work guns. Couldn't live with it, refused to use a accuwedge in a larue...
No more military discount.
Jp
What I like..
Although the barrels are probably similar in accuracy, I feel the jp is more accurate because I can tune it, low mass bolt, and very minimal felt recoil. I haven't shot above 1 moa with it yet, 1/2 moa on a good day.
This gun was built for long range shooting, so I'm a huge fan of the side charge. I forgot to mention that charging the obr from the prone was annoying. I could've charged it before I laid down, but whatever. It was still annoying.
Will be very unlikely if I shoot anything other than a jp single stage trigger again in a personal precision rifle. It has ruined me.
The gun is very well built. 300 rounds and I still have to knock the pins out with a wooden dowel. No movement at all in any of the parts.
At the end of the day if I called and asked jp to strip and spec my gun and recerakote it the same color, I'm sure they would.
I'm not worried about a test target either, I think it's more of a quiet professional thing to just know the guns you build are capable of producing half moa groups, you don't need to send a test target to prove that it can do it. I also feel like the larue test target is a disclaimer, or proof for court because my test target was a scanned copy. just to say "it did this before it left my shop here is the proof." I'm certain if you called Dustin and asked him to put 5 rounds on paper for you he would.
Huge military discount.
What I don't like abot jp
Specifically the lrp 07 with low mass bolt, the forward assist is useless. Id rather have the older model with the removable(?) brass deflector. Not a biggie though. With a regular bolt it's functional. Tuning the reg at the start of owning this gun, I'm anal and want as minimal movement in the bcg as possible. I know I can open for reliability, but I tinker. So I'm still smoothing things out while I figure loads. The obr will eat anything, but because you can't fine tune. Double edge sword.
I wish the top rail was monolithic.
The gas reg for the medium contour barrel is aluminum, not steel.
All in all, I think I've been blessed to own both. I did knowingly sell the larue to buy a jp, with little to no regret at all. I'm happy with my decision. While the larue may out of the box seem more reliable due to simplicity, you can build a jp or tune it to shoot anything. That's the beauty of it. I think they make a reg that has 2 positions now too, featured on their rsass with Remington. Hope this helps.
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The forward assist does work as JP intended. It only will engage when the bolt is not in lockup and you just need to shut it. The forward assist pushes on the larger diameter a little off to the side and behind the gas key. I use this for when I'm hunting and I need to load a round quiet. I will just ride the left side charging hand forward slowly and then tap the forward assist to make sure the round is fully seated. The forward assist will not let you 'ratchet' an improperly-sized load into the chamber when it starts to not work/fit at the shoulder...
With the low mass bolt the forward assist works? I've looked down in there and it seems like the bolt clears it because of the surface area taken away off the bcg. I'll have to look again!
