I'm going out to Alaska for 8 days this summer. Will be in the backcountry hiking. I know that 00 coming out of a Judge is not enough to kill a bear. I'm more concerned with deterrance. Should I find myself in this unlikely situation, I know the stress will be so high that I will very likely be unable to produce an accurate shot. But, with a 00 out of the Judge, as long as I'm close, there is a good chance of a few pellets getting to the bear and at least deterring him from continuing his aggressive behavior. I have no experience with bears. Is this a good choice of weapon with deterrance being my goal?
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Hunting & Fishing Judge for Bear
- Thread starter triumphathletics
- Start date
Re: Judge for Bear
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: triumphathletics</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I know the stress will be so high that I will very likely be unable to produce an accurate shot. </div></div>
My experience with the judge/shotgun ammo is that stress or not, you'll be lucky to hit Yogi unless he's already eating you (very stressful)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: triumphathletics</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> But, with a 00 out of the Judge, as long as I'm close, there is a good chance of a few pellets getting to the bear and at least deterring him from continuing his aggressive behavior. </div></div>
That's a rough bet to take, I'd much rather have something that WILL kill a bear (.460,.475,.454, or even a .44 mag) They are all great deterrents.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: triumphathletics</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I know the stress will be so high that I will very likely be unable to produce an accurate shot. </div></div>
My experience with the judge/shotgun ammo is that stress or not, you'll be lucky to hit Yogi unless he's already eating you (very stressful)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: triumphathletics</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> But, with a 00 out of the Judge, as long as I'm close, there is a good chance of a few pellets getting to the bear and at least deterring him from continuing his aggressive behavior. </div></div>
That's a rough bet to take, I'd much rather have something that WILL kill a bear (.460,.475,.454, or even a .44 mag) They are all great deterrents.
Re: Judge for Bear
I would second the recommendation that you carry a caliber that is at least sufficient to kill the bear. If you just get a few pellets into an angry bear, I don't know if it will necessarily deter the bear instead of provoking it. I am sure that the Judge has its place (although I am not sure what it is) but there are much better options for a bear gun.
I would second the recommendation that you carry a caliber that is at least sufficient to kill the bear. If you just get a few pellets into an angry bear, I don't know if it will necessarily deter the bear instead of provoking it. I am sure that the Judge has its place (although I am not sure what it is) but there are much better options for a bear gun.
Re: Judge for Bear
If you shoot a big ass bear with a Judge, he is going to eat you for pissing him off.
If you shoot a big ass bear with a Judge, he is going to eat you for pissing him off.
Re: Judge for Bear
Your best bet if you're carrying a Judge with bear deterrence in mind would be to <span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> shoot the bear, but instead hope the sound scares the bear away. Shooting it with something that will wound it seems like it would piss the bear off or at least give it a nasty infection, neither of which is ideal for you or the bear.
I have no experience with bears, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I would have to agree with the above posts that you're much better off using something that would kill the bear in the event you have to use it in that way. Carry a whistle and a .460. Blow the whistle if the bear acts aggressively. If it comes charging at you, use the .460. It <span style="font-style: italic">may</span> be dead before it can finish you off, giving you a chance to call for help (because you *will* be hurting).
A bear shot through the heart, lungs, or neck can run 100 yards or more before dropping dead. If it's 20 yards away from you when you hit it... I'm sure you can do the math and see that the bear would have plenty of time to give you its opinion on being shot and not dropped.
Your best bet if you're carrying a Judge with bear deterrence in mind would be to <span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> shoot the bear, but instead hope the sound scares the bear away. Shooting it with something that will wound it seems like it would piss the bear off or at least give it a nasty infection, neither of which is ideal for you or the bear.
I have no experience with bears, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I would have to agree with the above posts that you're much better off using something that would kill the bear in the event you have to use it in that way. Carry a whistle and a .460. Blow the whistle if the bear acts aggressively. If it comes charging at you, use the .460. It <span style="font-style: italic">may</span> be dead before it can finish you off, giving you a chance to call for help (because you *will* be hurting).
A bear shot through the heart, lungs, or neck can run 100 yards or more before dropping dead. If it's 20 yards away from you when you hit it... I'm sure you can do the math and see that the bear would have plenty of time to give you its opinion on being shot and not dropped.
Re: Judge for Bear
the judge is not a good bear gun with 00 you will just make him angry. Bear spray is just taco sauce so if you find a bear that dos not like spicy food you might be all right. get a 44mag or something bigger.
the judge is not a good bear gun with 00 you will just make him angry. Bear spray is just taco sauce so if you find a bear that dos not like spicy food you might be all right. get a 44mag or something bigger.
Re: Judge for Bear
If there are sights on it.. remove them.
That way when the bear shoves it up your ass, it won't hurt as bad.
If there are sights on it.. remove them.
That way when the bear shoves it up your ass, it won't hurt as bad.
Re: Judge for Bear
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: triumphathletics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going out to Alaska for 8 days this summer. Will be in the backcountry hiking. I know that 00 coming out of a Judge is not enough to kill a bear. I'm more concerned with deterrance. Should I find myself in this unlikely situation, I know the stress will be so high that I will very likely be unable to produce an accurate shot. But, with a 00 out of the Judge, as long as I'm close, there is a good chance of a few pellets getting to the bear and at least deterring him from continuing his aggressive behavior. I have no experience with bears. Is this a good choice of weapon with deterrance being my goal? </div></div>
I have done some backpacking up in alaska and I felt pretty comfortable with a can of bear spray on my belt and a 44 mag in my holster. It helped that i had my brother n-law with me that couldn't run worth a lick
My buddy who had spent the summer Kayak guiding ran into more a few brown bears and swore the spray worked just fine. Granted no real pissed off bears just the curious ones that didn't leave when you made noise.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: triumphathletics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going out to Alaska for 8 days this summer. Will be in the backcountry hiking. I know that 00 coming out of a Judge is not enough to kill a bear. I'm more concerned with deterrance. Should I find myself in this unlikely situation, I know the stress will be so high that I will very likely be unable to produce an accurate shot. But, with a 00 out of the Judge, as long as I'm close, there is a good chance of a few pellets getting to the bear and at least deterring him from continuing his aggressive behavior. I have no experience with bears. Is this a good choice of weapon with deterrance being my goal? </div></div>
I have done some backpacking up in alaska and I felt pretty comfortable with a can of bear spray on my belt and a 44 mag in my holster. It helped that i had my brother n-law with me that couldn't run worth a lick
Re: Judge for Bear
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: triumphathletics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going out to Alaska for 8 days this summer. Will be in the backcountry hiking. I know that 00 coming out of a Judge is not enough to kill a bear. I'm more concerned with deterrance. Should I find myself in this unlikely situation, I know the stress will be so high that I will very likely be unable to produce an accurate shot. But, with a 00 out of the Judge, as long as I'm close, there is a good chance of a few pellets getting to the bear and at least deterring him from continuing his aggressive behavior. I have no experience with bears. Is this a good choice of weapon with deterrance being my goal? </div></div>
You couldn't do much fucking worse.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: triumphathletics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going out to Alaska for 8 days this summer. Will be in the backcountry hiking. I know that 00 coming out of a Judge is not enough to kill a bear. I'm more concerned with deterrance. Should I find myself in this unlikely situation, I know the stress will be so high that I will very likely be unable to produce an accurate shot. But, with a 00 out of the Judge, as long as I'm close, there is a good chance of a few pellets getting to the bear and at least deterring him from continuing his aggressive behavior. I have no experience with bears. Is this a good choice of weapon with deterrance being my goal? </div></div>
You couldn't do much fucking worse.
Re: Judge for Bear
My experience tells me that if the bears are used to people they are used to gunshots and are not deterred. The most effective thing I have seen was a portable airhorn. I have seen bear spray in action and I was impressed- It didn't stop the charge and I almost had to shoot the bear. I deal with this every summer, all summer so I know what works. Carry something that will kill or break big bones in one shot. Don't bothr with anything else. Also, carry that thing where you can use it immediately, not tucked in your waders, not inside your jacket, leaned up against a tree, or in your truck. You MIGHT get one shot before a serious bear is chewing on ya.
My experience tells me that if the bears are used to people they are used to gunshots and are not deterred. The most effective thing I have seen was a portable airhorn. I have seen bear spray in action and I was impressed- It didn't stop the charge and I almost had to shoot the bear. I deal with this every summer, all summer so I know what works. Carry something that will kill or break big bones in one shot. Don't bothr with anything else. Also, carry that thing where you can use it immediately, not tucked in your waders, not inside your jacket, leaned up against a tree, or in your truck. You MIGHT get one shot before a serious bear is chewing on ya.
Re: Judge for Bear
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: triumphathletics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going out to Alaska for 8 days this summer. Will be in the backcountry hiking. I know that 00 coming out of a Judge is not enough to kill a bear. I'm more concerned with deterrance. Should I find myself in this unlikely situation, I know the stress will be so high that I will very likely be unable to produce an accurate shot. But, with a 00 out of the Judge, as long as I'm close, there is a good chance of a few pellets getting to the bear and at least deterring him from continuing his aggressive behavior. I have no experience with bears. Is this a good choice of weapon with deterrance being my goal? </div></div>
My advise is to take a 870 or similar shotgun loaded with Brenneke Rottweil slugs.
If deterrance is your chief concern, use pepper spray. Don't shoot a bear with a less than lethal firearm 'cause someone else will pay the price by having a wounded bear on their hands.
Also, the sows will have cubs with them, avoid at all costs. Stay away from salmon streams and game trails too. Make lots of noise. Most folks wanna go the handgun route 'cause they are too lazy to pack a long rifle/shotty.
As Robert Ruorke said, "Use enough gun"
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: triumphathletics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going out to Alaska for 8 days this summer. Will be in the backcountry hiking. I know that 00 coming out of a Judge is not enough to kill a bear. I'm more concerned with deterrance. Should I find myself in this unlikely situation, I know the stress will be so high that I will very likely be unable to produce an accurate shot. But, with a 00 out of the Judge, as long as I'm close, there is a good chance of a few pellets getting to the bear and at least deterring him from continuing his aggressive behavior. I have no experience with bears. Is this a good choice of weapon with deterrance being my goal? </div></div>
My advise is to take a 870 or similar shotgun loaded with Brenneke Rottweil slugs.
If deterrance is your chief concern, use pepper spray. Don't shoot a bear with a less than lethal firearm 'cause someone else will pay the price by having a wounded bear on their hands.
Also, the sows will have cubs with them, avoid at all costs. Stay away from salmon streams and game trails too. Make lots of noise. Most folks wanna go the handgun route 'cause they are too lazy to pack a long rifle/shotty.
As Robert Ruorke said, "Use enough gun"
Re: Judge for Bear
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stick Around</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Airhorns and Scatterguns...what possibly could be next?!!? </div></div>
Please do tell about your personal experience. I'm not promoting the use of shotguns other than for beanbag rounds and cracker shells, but the air horn works. I have personlly seen it all used and I know what works. Please share your location and tell us how many 1400lb brown bears you face at 15 feet in a summer.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stick Around</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Airhorns and Scatterguns...what possibly could be next?!!? </div></div>
Please do tell about your personal experience. I'm not promoting the use of shotguns other than for beanbag rounds and cracker shells, but the air horn works. I have personlly seen it all used and I know what works. Please share your location and tell us how many 1400lb brown bears you face at 15 feet in a summer.
Re: Judge for Bear
Sugar Tits,you are barking up the wrong fucking tree...but I dig how eager you are to stick both your feet in your fucking yap at the same time.
Seriously hoping,you are stupid enough,to prove just how stupid you are.
Sugar Tits,you are barking up the wrong fucking tree...but I dig how eager you are to stick both your feet in your fucking yap at the same time.
Seriously hoping,you are stupid enough,to prove just how stupid you are.
Re: Judge for Bear
Don't be stealing her Thunder,she was fixin' to "tell" me about her Imagination and I am MUCH looking forward to it.
Don't be stealing her Thunder,she was fixin' to "tell" me about her Imagination and I am MUCH looking forward to it.
Re: Judge for Bear
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stick Around</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Airhorns and Scatterguns...what possibly could be next?!!? </div></div>
Please do tell about your personal experience. I'm not promoting the use of shotguns other than for beanbag rounds and cracker shells, but the air horn works. I have personlly seen it all used and I know what works. Please share your location and tell us how many 1400lb brown bears you face at 15 feet in a summer.</div></div>
This will not end well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stick Around</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Airhorns and Scatterguns...what possibly could be next?!!? </div></div>
Please do tell about your personal experience. I'm not promoting the use of shotguns other than for beanbag rounds and cracker shells, but the air horn works. I have personlly seen it all used and I know what works. Please share your location and tell us how many 1400lb brown bears you face at 15 feet in a summer.</div></div>
This will not end well.
Re: Judge for Bear
Here's a 7'3" and what I judged to be a 21" Gross B&C Blackie,that I had my 10yr old pass the other day...if only to bolster her('draw's) "confidence".
Hopefully she'll rise to the bait.(grin)
Here's a 7'3" and what I judged to be a 21" Gross B&C Blackie,that I had my 10yr old pass the other day...if only to bolster her('draw's) "confidence".
Hopefully she'll rise to the bait.(grin)
Re: Judge for Bear
Kid's bears? I thought we were talking about big bears. Never mind. 7'3" is a damn big blackie, but tis just a youngster when you're talking about the bears round here. UgashikBob, what are you carrying? Perhaps the OP will speak up and let us know exactly where he's going and what kind of bears he expects to encounter.
Kid's bears? I thought we were talking about big bears. Never mind. 7'3" is a damn big blackie, but tis just a youngster when you're talking about the bears round here. UgashikBob, what are you carrying? Perhaps the OP will speak up and let us know exactly where he's going and what kind of bears he expects to encounter.
Re: Judge for Bear
This will be funny.
Say something about the biggest Bear you've killed...whether it Airhorn,Scattergun or Imagination.
This will be funny.
Say something about the biggest Bear you've killed...whether it Airhorn,Scattergun or Imagination.
Re: Judge for Bear
Haven't killed any brown bears. I haven't needed to yet. I had 4 bears over 8' square within 20 yards during the month of Sepember and 6 during October of last year. I own a guide service and spend spring till late fall on the water every day. Last year, I witnessed three bears get bear sprayed, two get shot with beanbag rounds, three get an air horn up close, and fireworks, rocks etc.. I personally lit off 9 rounds of 375 H&H as "warning shots" at 3 seperate bears and it didn't do shit. I watched a man spray half a can of spray into a bears face at 10 feet and it just stood there and looked at him. I was present for three bear hunts last fall where B&C brown bears were killed. Uganik lake, Viekoda bay, and Saltery creek. If you think I'm lacking in experience to intelligently discuss the subject, you're not correct. I know what works here, your results may vary. I do know you shouldn't use a fucking Taurus anything for a bear.
Haven't killed any brown bears. I haven't needed to yet. I had 4 bears over 8' square within 20 yards during the month of Sepember and 6 during October of last year. I own a guide service and spend spring till late fall on the water every day. Last year, I witnessed three bears get bear sprayed, two get shot with beanbag rounds, three get an air horn up close, and fireworks, rocks etc.. I personally lit off 9 rounds of 375 H&H as "warning shots" at 3 seperate bears and it didn't do shit. I watched a man spray half a can of spray into a bears face at 10 feet and it just stood there and looked at him. I was present for three bear hunts last fall where B&C brown bears were killed. Uganik lake, Viekoda bay, and Saltery creek. If you think I'm lacking in experience to intelligently discuss the subject, you're not correct. I know what works here, your results may vary. I do know you shouldn't use a fucking Taurus anything for a bear.
Re: Judge for Bear
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's good to have Larry around again...
Josh</div></div>
Don't get used to it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's good to have Larry around again...
Josh</div></div>
Don't get used to it.
Re: Judge for Bear
Wasn't the topic 00buck out of a Taurus Judge adequate for bear deterrent? I think the question was answered several times and the consensus is no. I don't feel the need to participate in a pissing match any longer. -OUT-
Wasn't the topic 00buck out of a Taurus Judge adequate for bear deterrent? I think the question was answered several times and the consensus is no. I don't feel the need to participate in a pissing match any longer. -OUT-
Re: Judge for Bear
Oh I am wondering if the ban hammer will find this pissy little troll anytime soon. Most of his posts are derogatory and confrontational. Not a good way to start out here.
Oh I am wondering if the ban hammer will find this pissy little troll anytime soon. Most of his posts are derogatory and confrontational. Not a good way to start out here.
Re: Judge for Bear
I'm sure the thin skinned crowd and those that do the least but know the most will get their wish for the hammer to fall...
Funny how an injection of reality can quiver lips of the "Hardened Killers" that abound...
I'm sure the thin skinned crowd and those that do the least but know the most will get their wish for the hammer to fall...
Funny how an injection of reality can quiver lips of the "Hardened Killers" that abound...
Re: Judge for Bear
I guess to each his own, but I would not trust my life to a 410 with buckshot with a bear charging. At the very least with the judge, I would be packing hardcast bullets.
I pack a 44 mag with 305gr hardcast buffalo bore rounds.
I guess to each his own, but I would not trust my life to a 410 with buckshot with a bear charging. At the very least with the judge, I would be packing hardcast bullets.
I pack a 44 mag with 305gr hardcast buffalo bore rounds.
Re: Judge for Bear
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's good to have Larry around again...
Josh</div></div>
Don't get used to it. </div></div>
LOL, damn! That didn't take long. Guessing the hammer already fell as his posts suddenly stopped.
Yea, he's confrontational and trollish but it's entertaining anyway. Everyone who has been around here for a bit knows his deal... don't take any of it too serious and I just don't see the harm!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure the thin skinned crowd and those that do the least but know the most will get their wish for the hammer to fall...
Funny how an injection of reality can quiver lips of the "Hardened Killers" that abound... </div></div>
I think I agree...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's good to have Larry around again...
Josh</div></div>
Don't get used to it. </div></div>
LOL, damn! That didn't take long. Guessing the hammer already fell as his posts suddenly stopped.
Yea, he's confrontational and trollish but it's entertaining anyway. Everyone who has been around here for a bit knows his deal... don't take any of it too serious and I just don't see the harm!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure the thin skinned crowd and those that do the least but know the most will get their wish for the hammer to fall...
Funny how an injection of reality can quiver lips of the "Hardened Killers" that abound... </div></div>
I think I agree...
Re: Judge for Bear
Am I being stupid here or doesn't the judge also take .45 Colt?
Better than shot on any bear
Minimun accepted pistol calibre for bear protection round here is .44 mag.
Now getting a permit to carry for self protection in the bush is another thing....
Am I being stupid here or doesn't the judge also take .45 Colt?
Better than shot on any bear
Minimun accepted pistol calibre for bear protection round here is .44 mag.
Now getting a permit to carry for self protection in the bush is another thing....
Re: Judge for Bear
I killed a 6'10" square 20-7/8" B and C black bear a few years ago. Shot it with a 350gr 45/70 from about 55 yds that went through the lugs and cut the heart to a pile of jelly. He ran a good 75 yds through the thickest crap you have seen.....so thick that the way we got to him was to follow his path. While carrying a pistol makes me feel better....I have to be real with myself. If I had shot that bear charging from anywhere inside of 60-75 yds with the same load he would have killed me several times over before expiring. You have to get damn lucky for a pistol of any kind to help you out in a bear situation. I expect a similiar sized or bigger brown bear would be both tougher and more aggressive.
As a side note why would you ever pass on a bear that size stick around? What are you looking for?
I killed a 6'10" square 20-7/8" B and C black bear a few years ago. Shot it with a 350gr 45/70 from about 55 yds that went through the lugs and cut the heart to a pile of jelly. He ran a good 75 yds through the thickest crap you have seen.....so thick that the way we got to him was to follow his path. While carrying a pistol makes me feel better....I have to be real with myself. If I had shot that bear charging from anywhere inside of 60-75 yds with the same load he would have killed me several times over before expiring. You have to get damn lucky for a pistol of any kind to help you out in a bear situation. I expect a similiar sized or bigger brown bear would be both tougher and more aggressive.
As a side note why would you ever pass on a bear that size stick around? What are you looking for?
Re: Judge for Bear
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JCH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">uhhhh, how about bear spray? </div></div>
exactly ~!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JCH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">uhhhh, how about bear spray? </div></div>
exactly ~!
Re: Judge for Bear
If you carry The Judge, file the front site off. That way it won't hurt so bad when the bear sticks it up your butt.
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
If you carry The Judge, file the front site off. That way it won't hurt so bad when the bear sticks it up your butt.
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
Re: Judge for Bear
I've been asked what I carry and the answer is not much. When I
first moved out here I never went anywhere including the outhouse packing but have become lazy over the years. When they get thick in the front yard I keep the the 375 or the 50 Beowulf handy.
Bear spray is probably better than nothing because its easy to carry and always fairly handy. Carried it a lot but never used it.
Not a fan of pistols or shotguns for brown bear. The only question I have for proponents of either is how many close quarters brownies have you stopped with them. I've seen a lot of bears really pissed with a shotgun and one dink bear barely killed with a 454 pistol. Very impressed with the shooter very unimpressed with the round. US Fish & Wildlife did studies years ago and had concerns with penetration from the best slugs out of shotguns and eventually went with 375's for a carry weapon.
Every time I had a close encounter I bought a bigger rifle but once you are in the uglies with them you realize there is nothing you can carry with both hands that stops the pucker factor.
I've been asked what I carry and the answer is not much. When I
first moved out here I never went anywhere including the outhouse packing but have become lazy over the years. When they get thick in the front yard I keep the the 375 or the 50 Beowulf handy.
Bear spray is probably better than nothing because its easy to carry and always fairly handy. Carried it a lot but never used it.
Not a fan of pistols or shotguns for brown bear. The only question I have for proponents of either is how many close quarters brownies have you stopped with them. I've seen a lot of bears really pissed with a shotgun and one dink bear barely killed with a 454 pistol. Very impressed with the shooter very unimpressed with the round. US Fish & Wildlife did studies years ago and had concerns with penetration from the best slugs out of shotguns and eventually went with 375's for a carry weapon.
Every time I had a close encounter I bought a bigger rifle but once you are in the uglies with them you realize there is nothing you can carry with both hands that stops the pucker factor.
Re: Judge for Bear
Sure Bob!
In my line of work we need to carry protection while in the field. We used to carry our own weapons (375 H&H for me) but management (lawyers) grew concerned about it and started a new training plan.
For the last ten years we have had to take a bear awareness and self defense class hosted by ADFG. It includes bear behavior, avoidance and firearms training. The company provides Rem 870's for the course and are the same weapons we use in the field.
The instructor (same one for ten years) handles nearly every human/wildlife encounter case in our area and he has DLP'd a lot of brownie/blackies and moose in his career. He also eliminates problem/trash eating bears every year.
He carries an 870 w/Brenneke Rottweil slugs in the field and has used the same in the majority of his kills. He says penetration is excellent in brown bears as the Rottweil is a hardened, rifled slug.
The company provides the same for us at the recommendation of ADFG. We shoot full power loads in our training instead of the light loads. We shoot standing, prone, kneeling, moving targets and off our backs shooting up at the target.
Fortunately, I have never had to take a bear on or off duty in self defense. I used to be a proponet of the large caliber rifles but since taking the courses I've changed the way I feel. Having the moving target come at you at 20+ mph opens your eyes a bit. The bear comes at you from a dead stop at 25 yds, accelerating as fast as the asshole driver of the 4 wheeler or snow machine can go as they pull the target. You are supposed to put 2 rds in it before it passes you.
Almost everyone gets it done. The target is then put 15 yds away and pulled towards you again. 1 out of 10 guys might get 2 shots off with the 2nd usually out of the kill zone.
Being a Marine, I know all about the one well aimed shot philosophy, but as you know, some brownies choose not to recognize it. Hence, the option of 5 more rds rapidly available in the pump gun.
So, in the interest of the safety of my family, people in my crew and myself, I choose to standardize my wildlife protection by using the 870/hardened slug combo in all situations. Since I haven't had to fire in anger, I defer to the guy who has put more growlers down than anyone I know.
Here's a few pics.
Sure Bob!
In my line of work we need to carry protection while in the field. We used to carry our own weapons (375 H&H for me) but management (lawyers) grew concerned about it and started a new training plan.
For the last ten years we have had to take a bear awareness and self defense class hosted by ADFG. It includes bear behavior, avoidance and firearms training. The company provides Rem 870's for the course and are the same weapons we use in the field.
The instructor (same one for ten years) handles nearly every human/wildlife encounter case in our area and he has DLP'd a lot of brownie/blackies and moose in his career. He also eliminates problem/trash eating bears every year.
He carries an 870 w/Brenneke Rottweil slugs in the field and has used the same in the majority of his kills. He says penetration is excellent in brown bears as the Rottweil is a hardened, rifled slug.
The company provides the same for us at the recommendation of ADFG. We shoot full power loads in our training instead of the light loads. We shoot standing, prone, kneeling, moving targets and off our backs shooting up at the target.
Fortunately, I have never had to take a bear on or off duty in self defense. I used to be a proponet of the large caliber rifles but since taking the courses I've changed the way I feel. Having the moving target come at you at 20+ mph opens your eyes a bit. The bear comes at you from a dead stop at 25 yds, accelerating as fast as the asshole driver of the 4 wheeler or snow machine can go as they pull the target. You are supposed to put 2 rds in it before it passes you.
Almost everyone gets it done. The target is then put 15 yds away and pulled towards you again. 1 out of 10 guys might get 2 shots off with the 2nd usually out of the kill zone.
Being a Marine, I know all about the one well aimed shot philosophy, but as you know, some brownies choose not to recognize it. Hence, the option of 5 more rds rapidly available in the pump gun.
So, in the interest of the safety of my family, people in my crew and myself, I choose to standardize my wildlife protection by using the 870/hardened slug combo in all situations. Since I haven't had to fire in anger, I defer to the guy who has put more growlers down than anyone I know.
Here's a few pics.
Re: Judge for Bear
LX:
I'll certainly bow to that experience. I would like to see the particulars of the slug penetration on any size brown bear. The 375 like rifle cartridges are well proven in Alaska but the drawbacks of a rifle in very close quarters is being able to put it on target. I've talked to a lot of people who advocate shotgun but have yet to see any results produced. I think a lot of people are skeptical of shotguns and charging brown bear because a lot more have been done in with rifle. I'm not saying it can't be done but the first one I see will be the first one I see.
That looks like an excellent training exercise with my only critique being I don't know if you can pull that sled fast enough to simulate a charging brownie. There speed is incredible. I've yet to see any brownie that couldn't hole shoot my Honda. I would sure like to shoot that course.
I went from a 338 to a 375 to a 416 to a 50 beowulf. Never had to use the 50 but the 16" barrel, 10 round mag and 400 grain Hawk bullets look like they should do the job. Does your instructor know of any guides that use shotgun for followup as I suspect the DLP thing gives you more choices than follow up on a wounded bear? I can see the advantage of shotgun in a more urban environment but what about past 100 yards? Short range the advantage in my mind at least goes to whatever puts the most lead in the kill zone the fastest.
LX:
I'll certainly bow to that experience. I would like to see the particulars of the slug penetration on any size brown bear. The 375 like rifle cartridges are well proven in Alaska but the drawbacks of a rifle in very close quarters is being able to put it on target. I've talked to a lot of people who advocate shotgun but have yet to see any results produced. I think a lot of people are skeptical of shotguns and charging brown bear because a lot more have been done in with rifle. I'm not saying it can't be done but the first one I see will be the first one I see.
That looks like an excellent training exercise with my only critique being I don't know if you can pull that sled fast enough to simulate a charging brownie. There speed is incredible. I've yet to see any brownie that couldn't hole shoot my Honda. I would sure like to shoot that course.
I went from a 338 to a 375 to a 416 to a 50 beowulf. Never had to use the 50 but the 16" barrel, 10 round mag and 400 grain Hawk bullets look like they should do the job. Does your instructor know of any guides that use shotgun for followup as I suspect the DLP thing gives you more choices than follow up on a wounded bear? I can see the advantage of shotgun in a more urban environment but what about past 100 yards? Short range the advantage in my mind at least goes to whatever puts the most lead in the kill zone the fastest.
Re: Judge for Bear
Bob.
I think your 50 would be sufficient. 10 rds in the mag is a nice bonus. I should be taking the class shortly and I'll try to remember to ask the instuctor your question. I also know a few guides I can ask.
He also said a lot of his kills were clean up after an attempted DLP by poor/unlucky shooters, so he has followed up on wounded bear and moose. As far as 100 yds, I wouldn't consider that range an immediate threat, but as you said, those yards can close rapidly. I do agree w/your last sentence, one can unload a semi/lever or pump fairly quickly.
As far as penetration, my brother DLP'd a cow moose with a 870 shooting sabot slugs. The two slugs entered her chest and exited her ass and punctured holes eight inches apart in the neighbours van. Nice group! The dude wasn't pissed because the moose had his children in a bind as they walked home from school.
Apologies to the OP for wandering off course!
Bob.
I think your 50 would be sufficient. 10 rds in the mag is a nice bonus. I should be taking the class shortly and I'll try to remember to ask the instuctor your question. I also know a few guides I can ask.
He also said a lot of his kills were clean up after an attempted DLP by poor/unlucky shooters, so he has followed up on wounded bear and moose. As far as 100 yds, I wouldn't consider that range an immediate threat, but as you said, those yards can close rapidly. I do agree w/your last sentence, one can unload a semi/lever or pump fairly quickly.
As far as penetration, my brother DLP'd a cow moose with a 870 shooting sabot slugs. The two slugs entered her chest and exited her ass and punctured holes eight inches apart in the neighbours van. Nice group! The dude wasn't pissed because the moose had his children in a bind as they walked home from school.
Apologies to the OP for wandering off course!
Re: Judge for Bear
LX:
One thing I didn't mention is that I went from the bolts to the semi because in the scenario's you practice at 15 yards the bolt gun is a one shot deal unless the growler is slowed for some reason. May be people that can do more shots with a bolt but not me. Anything long barreled is a problem in the close quartered uglies. I also modified the safety on all my bolt guns so it was locked on safety. This Benilli sits on the rack next to the 375 and the 50 with the extension tube full of slugs but I have never used it. I had the safety off last fall twice with a 10 footer trying to get in our living room window but never used it. I wanted to try it in a scenario like that where you were not in harms way before I carried it. Also my comment about 100 yards was in the context of follow up shots if you are blessed with open cover on an escaping bear. Even my 50 is a 200 yard gun max and that is where the 375 like rounds have an advantage but will still bow to the close quarters firepower in most cases.
OP:
I've used a shotgun with shot as an effective deterrant but bears are quick learners. If they have been shot before you may just irratate them. I would consider a couple 6, 7 1/2's with everything else being the hardest hotest slug you can get in center mass.
LX:
One thing I didn't mention is that I went from the bolts to the semi because in the scenario's you practice at 15 yards the bolt gun is a one shot deal unless the growler is slowed for some reason. May be people that can do more shots with a bolt but not me. Anything long barreled is a problem in the close quartered uglies. I also modified the safety on all my bolt guns so it was locked on safety. This Benilli sits on the rack next to the 375 and the 50 with the extension tube full of slugs but I have never used it. I had the safety off last fall twice with a 10 footer trying to get in our living room window but never used it. I wanted to try it in a scenario like that where you were not in harms way before I carried it. Also my comment about 100 yards was in the context of follow up shots if you are blessed with open cover on an escaping bear. Even my 50 is a 200 yard gun max and that is where the 375 like rounds have an advantage but will still bow to the close quarters firepower in most cases.
OP:
I've used a shotgun with shot as an effective deterrant but bears are quick learners. If they have been shot before you may just irratate them. I would consider a couple 6, 7 1/2's with everything else being the hardest hotest slug you can get in center mass.
Re: Judge for Bear
While I acknowledge that the OP may not have one in his posssession nor might he want to go out and spend money on another gun but I cannot understand why anyone would not want a Marlin 45/70 Guide Gun for potential bear encounters. So many times I read about guys who want to go into bear country with handguns and I always ask myself "why?" Guide Guns are lightweight, convenient, and pack a big punch. Ugashik Bob's Benelli and Beowulf would also undoubtedly do the job and I defer to his thoughts as well as LegioX's. But when you can carry a lightweight compact gun that, with the proper rounds has been known to kill not one but TWO Cape Buffs with a single broadside shot...well, that's saying something.
While I acknowledge that the OP may not have one in his posssession nor might he want to go out and spend money on another gun but I cannot understand why anyone would not want a Marlin 45/70 Guide Gun for potential bear encounters. So many times I read about guys who want to go into bear country with handguns and I always ask myself "why?" Guide Guns are lightweight, convenient, and pack a big punch. Ugashik Bob's Benelli and Beowulf would also undoubtedly do the job and I defer to his thoughts as well as LegioX's. But when you can carry a lightweight compact gun that, with the proper rounds has been known to kill not one but TWO Cape Buffs with a single broadside shot...well, that's saying something.
Re: Judge for Bear
Wow... there is a wealth of experience in this thread! My woods gun here in Oregon (which doesn't have the huge bears like AK..) is a Ruger SRH in 480. I have wondered if this would be an acceptable sidearm for a bigger bear? It seems to me that a red dot sight and 6 rounds of 400-420 grain slugs would be good bear medicine, just a tad less powerful than my guide gun. Anyone with real life experience that can comment?
Wow... there is a wealth of experience in this thread! My woods gun here in Oregon (which doesn't have the huge bears like AK..) is a Ruger SRH in 480. I have wondered if this would be an acceptable sidearm for a bigger bear? It seems to me that a red dot sight and 6 rounds of 400-420 grain slugs would be good bear medicine, just a tad less powerful than my guide gun. Anyone with real life experience that can comment?
Re: Judge for Bear
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RedRyder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While I acknowledge that the OP may not have one in his posssession nor might he want to go out and spend money on another gun but I cannot understand why anyone would not want a Marlin 45/70 Guide Gun for potential bear encounters. So many times I read about guys who want to go into bear country with handguns and I always ask myself "why?" Guide Guns are lightweight, convenient, and pack a big punch. Ugashik Bob's Benelli and Beowulf would also undoubtedly do the job and I defer to his thoughts as well as LegioX's. But when you can carry a lightweight compact gun that, with the proper rounds has been known to kill not one but TWO Cape Buffs with a single broadside shot...well, that's saying something. </div></div>
You are right about the Marlins, I know of a few guides who use them as back up. I sent this to Tucson Dave and he posted it here. It's an instance where a local guide used a handgun to defend himself against a brownie. It's worth a peek.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2387287
Another thing I do when I go to an area where a confrontation is more likely, I take the sling off my 870 and stash it. It keeps me from getting complacent and assures the shotty is where it should be, in my hands. Kinda weird maybe, but its what I do.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RedRyder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While I acknowledge that the OP may not have one in his posssession nor might he want to go out and spend money on another gun but I cannot understand why anyone would not want a Marlin 45/70 Guide Gun for potential bear encounters. So many times I read about guys who want to go into bear country with handguns and I always ask myself "why?" Guide Guns are lightweight, convenient, and pack a big punch. Ugashik Bob's Benelli and Beowulf would also undoubtedly do the job and I defer to his thoughts as well as LegioX's. But when you can carry a lightweight compact gun that, with the proper rounds has been known to kill not one but TWO Cape Buffs with a single broadside shot...well, that's saying something. </div></div>
You are right about the Marlins, I know of a few guides who use them as back up. I sent this to Tucson Dave and he posted it here. It's an instance where a local guide used a handgun to defend himself against a brownie. It's worth a peek.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2387287
Another thing I do when I go to an area where a confrontation is more likely, I take the sling off my 870 and stash it. It keeps me from getting complacent and assures the shotty is where it should be, in my hands. Kinda weird maybe, but its what I do.
Re: Judge for Bear
In the book, out of the Win 94AE lever carbine, The .44 Mag with the 240gr JHP seems to have a 100 ft/lb terminal energy edge over the .45 Colt. Never been within 1/4 mile of an uncaged bear, and I've certainly never shot one, but I'm still wondering how well the .44Mag/'94AE lines up in this discussion.
Greg
In the book, out of the Win 94AE lever carbine, The .44 Mag with the 240gr JHP seems to have a 100 ft/lb terminal energy edge over the .45 Colt. Never been within 1/4 mile of an uncaged bear, and I've certainly never shot one, but I'm still wondering how well the .44Mag/'94AE lines up in this discussion.
Greg
Re: Judge for Bear
Gregg:
Here is a small brownie that took the first four from a a 454 Causall center mass in the chest and never blinked and you can plainly see where the 5th went that stopped him. This bear was >6ft in length and about that distance when finally stopped. I was right behind the shooter and couldn't shoot. Very impressed with the shooter but not the performence of the round in this case. Having seen the serious lead others have taken I just don't feel comfortable with anything you shoot with one hand. No doubt pistols have done the deed many times but wouldn't be my choice unless it was that or nothing.
Gregg:
Here is a small brownie that took the first four from a a 454 Causall center mass in the chest and never blinked and you can plainly see where the 5th went that stopped him. This bear was >6ft in length and about that distance when finally stopped. I was right behind the shooter and couldn't shoot. Very impressed with the shooter but not the performence of the round in this case. Having seen the serious lead others have taken I just don't feel comfortable with anything you shoot with one hand. No doubt pistols have done the deed many times but wouldn't be my choice unless it was that or nothing.
Re: Judge for Bear
Thanks yet again, Bob. I would give an arm for your experience. But then I might not be so well configured to enjoy/employ it.
You get to do what I once seriously dreamed of doing. These days, Alaska and I are probably better off where we both are.
I unabashedly envy you and your lady.
As big critters go, I suspect they gain something from their bulk that makes them still very dangerous even when the pump is shut down decisively. Until the brain housing group gets disrupted, they are still on the tracks and running full steam.
I like my '94AE. I think it gets the full potential out of the .44 Mag, and between the dot scope and lever action, is probably the most instinctively user-friendly means of putting massive energy ontarget that I own. I would use it to clear a house, drop a deer, or take my last best crack at stopping an oncoming fantasticatastrophy.
Greg
Thanks yet again, Bob. I would give an arm for your experience. But then I might not be so well configured to enjoy/employ it.
You get to do what I once seriously dreamed of doing. These days, Alaska and I are probably better off where we both are.
I unabashedly envy you and your lady.
As big critters go, I suspect they gain something from their bulk that makes them still very dangerous even when the pump is shut down decisively. Until the brain housing group gets disrupted, they are still on the tracks and running full steam.
I like my '94AE. I think it gets the full potential out of the .44 Mag, and between the dot scope and lever action, is probably the most instinctively user-friendly means of putting massive energy ontarget that I own. I would use it to clear a house, drop a deer, or take my last best crack at stopping an oncoming fantasticatastrophy.
Greg
Re: Judge for Bear
Greg:
I feel blessed every day knowing we have been able to actually do our dream. Been forced into some bear things but really not as experienced as the bear guides and people like X's instructor who bet there ass regularly. They are the ones to listen to.
I really like the idea of the training exercises because that is a great tool. Do that crawling on your hands and knees and you get an idea of the uglies the guides and DLP people have to work with because that is where the wounded ones go. Just in the process of ordering a more refined electric fence as that has been my most effective safeguard.
Greg:
I feel blessed every day knowing we have been able to actually do our dream. Been forced into some bear things but really not as experienced as the bear guides and people like X's instructor who bet there ass regularly. They are the ones to listen to.
I really like the idea of the training exercises because that is a great tool. Do that crawling on your hands and knees and you get an idea of the uglies the guides and DLP people have to work with because that is where the wounded ones go. Just in the process of ordering a more refined electric fence as that has been my most effective safeguard.
Re: Judge for Bear
Thanks for the input Bob, I figured you had more insight (pun intended) than most here when dealing with serious bears. Greening up out there yet? Gotta love springtime in AK.
Thanks for the input Bob, I figured you had more insight (pun intended) than most here when dealing with serious bears. Greening up out there yet? Gotta love springtime in AK.
Re: Judge for Bear
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UgashikBob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been asked what I carry and the answer is not much. When I
first moved out here I never went anywhere including the outhouse packing but have become lazy over the years. When they get thick in the front yard I keep the the 375 or the 50 Beowulf handy.
Bear spray is probably better than nothing because its easy to carry and always fairly handy. Carried it a lot but never used it.
Not a fan of pistols or shotguns for brown bear. The only question I have for proponents of either is how many close quarters brownies have you stopped with them. I've seen a lot of bears really pissed with a shotgun and one dink bear barely killed with a 454 pistol. Very impressed with the shooter very unimpressed with the round. US Fish & Wildlife did studies years ago and had concerns with penetration from the best slugs out of shotguns and eventually went with 375's for a carry weapon.
Every time I had a close encounter I bought a bigger rifle but once you are in the uglies with them you realize there is nothing you can carry with both hands that stops the pucker factor. </div></div>
Ive seen Super Sabots punch thru 1/2" cold rolled steel at 20 yards. That would turn any thing that was fleshy into a hamburger meat. I still have the empty boxes of slugs at home, I will get the name for you to test out. A 12ga with about 8 super's in it will put down about anything.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UgashikBob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been asked what I carry and the answer is not much. When I
first moved out here I never went anywhere including the outhouse packing but have become lazy over the years. When they get thick in the front yard I keep the the 375 or the 50 Beowulf handy.
Bear spray is probably better than nothing because its easy to carry and always fairly handy. Carried it a lot but never used it.
Not a fan of pistols or shotguns for brown bear. The only question I have for proponents of either is how many close quarters brownies have you stopped with them. I've seen a lot of bears really pissed with a shotgun and one dink bear barely killed with a 454 pistol. Very impressed with the shooter very unimpressed with the round. US Fish & Wildlife did studies years ago and had concerns with penetration from the best slugs out of shotguns and eventually went with 375's for a carry weapon.
Every time I had a close encounter I bought a bigger rifle but once you are in the uglies with them you realize there is nothing you can carry with both hands that stops the pucker factor. </div></div>
Ive seen Super Sabots punch thru 1/2" cold rolled steel at 20 yards. That would turn any thing that was fleshy into a hamburger meat. I still have the empty boxes of slugs at home, I will get the name for you to test out. A 12ga with about 8 super's in it will put down about anything.
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