Night Vision Jumping in, help me spend $4-6K

[jeffl838]

And here I was about to go with filmless DTNVG's...now I'm considering a PVS-14/chinaskeet combo instead, or two PVS-14's and a COTI. Too many options, too much money.

The only time I every used thermals was for scanning for threats while in a patrol base or something, and the old one's had terrible battery life. But if this is the way of the future, no reason to get DTNVG's for a shitload of money just for flat range theatrics when the dual-band setup appears to be the real world winner. Plan would be thermal on non-dominant eye, PVS-14 on dominant eye for passive aiming through eotech etc.

The modern use case is similar. Modern thermals also still kinda suck. Innovation lags in comparison to all the other digital tech that's skyrocketing. The COTI is super neat and would be better at everything except for stuff like patrol bases and guard towers. Otherwise you probably want the skeet or binos - and depending on the terrain, maybe a 14/skeet combo.

The COTI sucks and you'll be disappointed when you get it but it's all we've got...

You'd be really happy with the DTNVG's, I'm sure - if it was me and I could swing it, I'd get the DTNVG's and some 1000 dollar detector.

 

[jeffl838]

Hot Button (what he’s looking at) has momentary and constant-on click.

Nice. Gotta try one out. I don't like the angle, but I'm not a fan of the surefire click switch thing, so maybe the hot button is the lesser of two evils.

 

[WhereNow&How]

The COTI sucks and you'll be disappointed when you get it but it's all we've got...

Yeah, but I will suck a COTI long and hard for what it does. Just had to throw that out there to get Elite all revved up.

 

[Ironman8]

The modern use case is similar. Modern thermals also still kinda suck. Innovation lags in comparison to all the other digital tech that's skyrocketing. The COTI is super neat and would be better at everything except for stuff like patrol bases and guard towers. Otherwise you probably want the skeet or binos - and depending on the terrain, maybe a 14/skeet combo.

The COTI sucks and you'll be disappointed when you get it but it's all we've got...

You'd be really happy with the DTNVG's, I'm sure - if it was me and I could swing it, I'd get the DTNVG's and some 1000 dollar detector.

So I just picked up a COTI and it sucks to hear it sucks lol. Can you maybe contextualize that?

And if you didn’t run a COTI, how would you run a fighting setup with a thermal detection “layer”? Handheld with mono, or better yet, Bino I2? Head mounted dual band? Other?

 

[WhereNow&How]

So I just picked up a COTI and it sucks to hear it sucks lol. Can you maybe contextualize that?

and if you didn’t run a COTI, how would you run a fighting setup with a thermal detection “layer”? Handheld with mono or better yet, Bino I2? Head mounted dual band? Other?

Read carefully what Jeff838 said. I interpret it as in a static situation the COTI sucks compared to other options and I agree.

However, I think for a dynamic on the move fighting situation, it really cannot be beat unless one of the fancy $20 K plus systems that are basically unobtainium to civilians unless you maybe Horta.

Different "tools" always perform better in certain situations that they are more purpose driven for.

The COTI is an excellent fighting tool in a dynamic moving scenario and does not suck IMHO in that situation. YMMV.

Maybe Jeff838 will shed more clear light on his thinking as he is undoubtedly a very experienced person.

 

[Lowdown3]

I don't know of any other device that is actually available to civies (Ecoti is not) that will take your I2 device and make it into a fusion device. In that regards the Coti is tops. If you look at it just as a stand alone thermal, then yeah there are definitely better choices out there.

But you can't exactly have your Breach mate with your PVS14 and have a fusion baby LOL.

 

[jeffl838]

The coti has a monopoly on retrofitting fusion onto i2. If you need fusion retrofitted, you only have the coti to get - but it doesn’t do it very well. I think fusion is the shit and is near essential in a lot of circumstances. I just wish the coti did it better

Another critical feature of thermal sometimes is resolved some thermal details, which the coti sucks at.

So basically the coti fills one of two things you want your thermal to do - which makes me sad when I use it because it’d be so cool if it was just a little better

 

[WhereNow&How]

I have found that adjusting the Gain each night to that nights thermal conditions is critical to get mine to perform well. Any small lens thermal device I have found that to be a truism.

I have both the Nivisys Tac's M and the Pas 29A's and run them strictly in Outline Mode set to white. They are not very good at PID at longer distances but they perform great on letting me know something is alive at distance and heads up check it out for more detail with rifle mounted thermal or PVS 14 with 5X Magnifier and Luna Elir-3.

At the $3,000 price point they are a real bargain IMHO if you need or value such a small lightweight device for fusion.

 

[jeffl838]

with the coti I wasn’t even looking at long range pid I mean like 25m is that guy wearing a vest or not kinda resolution - I was way more sure about things like that if I had another thermal to resolve that

 

[Choid]

with the coti I wasn’t even looking at long range pid I mean like 25m is that guy wearing a vest or not kinda resolution - I was way more sure about things like that if I had another thermal to resolve that

Maybe a dumb question, but were you guys even allowed to wear something like a skeet on one eye and a 14 on the other if you wanted? If COTI was one of the options, I am assuming that the newer fusions werent available.

 

[jeffl838]

Maybe a dumb question, but were you guys even allowed to wear something like a skeet on one eye and a 14 on the other if you wanted? If COTI was one of the options, I am assuming that the newer fusions werent available.

For context - I was in the army. I tried the skeet14 thing and it sucked. It would have been cool in a guard tower, if I could afford to walk really carefully... basically static or when movement speed/athleticism isn’t a requirement. it sucked because it’s easier to navigate overland with binos and navigation is a big part of army stuff

The coti is better (for me) than any of the other fusion options to include 36’s/20’s/whatever because I can slap it on articulating binos and articulating binos are the shit

 

[Choid]

Interesting. Thanks for the context. Makes a lot of sense.

 

[Ironman8]

Good discussion guys. Thanks @jeffl838 & @WhereNow&How for weighing in.

 

[army_eod]

If you’re not hunting and clearing structures is something in your wheelhouse, then NV is a must. If you’re taking classes, thermal is not much use. If you can master a single PVS-14 over your non-dominant/non-shooting side, with an IR laser/illuminator on your rifle AND SF Vampire on your pistol, then you can work up to bigger and badder.

Keep it SIMPLE, LIGHT, UNCLUTTERED, and buy the absolute BEST of each particular item.

Alabama friend. I should do this. Im up the road. Need to start so keep me in mind. KISS.

1) A high-spec L3 Filmless WP PVS-14. 2500 FOM, Low EBI, Small Halo.
2) MAWL C1+. You don’t need a DA, even if you can get one.
3) Surefire WML. I love the new 600DF’s.
4) Crye Nightcap or Quality Bump Helmet with Shroud (if you’re going to use it at work too, then get the bump).
5) Rhino II, Wilcox G11 to save a bit or G24 or INVG if you want to splurge a bit. INVG is The Shizzle for a single PVS-14.
6) Good counterweight, like TNVC Mohawk.
7) Hel-Star visible and IR strobe.
8) X300V or X400V pistol IR/Visible light. The X300V can be had brand new for $220. Highly recommended.
9) 4D Deluxe helmet pads

The MAWL C1+ is expensive. To save $2000, get a TNVC/Steiner TOR IR laser and go with a Surefire M600V “Vampire” Visible/IR WML and a Unity Hot Button. Unfortunately, the TOR does NOT support a remote switch, so you’re gonna have to train with two different buttons, but if I can do it, you definitely can.

Once you get your ensemble sorted, wear it around at night everywhere you go. Let it become transparent, to the point you forget you’re wearing it, and it becomes second nature to you, not just occasionally or at classes. This is the only way to “master” your kit.

Give me a bit to put this all together and take some photos.

This requires CAREFUL, well-thought-out planning, especially if you want to use this at work, too.

 

[verdugo60]

Anybody have a lead on a unity tactical hot button for Surefire light? Can’t seem to find one in stock.

 

[Choid]

I do, rail mount black. PM me if you want to buy it.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate it. I’m thinking I’ll start with a bump helmet setup with something like 2 XLS WP 14’s and maybe a 9007 DBAL I-2 on 1-2 carbines.

Then as funds allow look at either a helmet mountable thermal for one eye or a thermal site on a “night gun”.

What say ye? Is the KAC bridge the best to connect two monoculars? Does it connect directly to an ops core bump helmet? Anyone know when they will open the XLS ones back up for ordering and is there a vendor that can offer a similar quality alternative?
Anyone offering LE/MIL discounts or package discounts?

I’m debating on waiting for a Black Friday sale somewhere but with 20+week wait times that kind of sucks.

You have been lurking for years, want to spend $6k but think maybe you'll wait for a black Friday 20+ weeks away. Fear the Squirrels.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Have you thought about your clothes yet? We have a whole forum for that part.

 

[verdugo60]

Great input, welcome to my thread, lol.

 

[RyanScott]

10 weeks until Black Friday.

 

[WhereNow&How]

10 weeks until Black Friday.

And probably 20 weeks minimum after that for delivery. Resources getting tough to procure.

 

[RyanScott]

No doubt.

 

[verdugo60]

Luckily I just snagged my first 14 and bump
helmet. Got a Photonis Echo WP with good specs and I’m getting everything setup on a carbine to run it. Been wanting one for years and decided to make it happen.

Thanks to @TheHorta for his help again and everyone else who contributed something useful, much appreciated.

Will probably look at a thermal scanner next, maybe another 14 when things calm down.

 

[Spooky68]

@TheHorta.... looking back on this thread with the pictures you posted are you concerned about bashing the TOR on stuff since it is mounted on the bottom?? I immediately think of throwing the rifle on a pack or a branch... and CRACK... bye bye TOR... I mounted mine on top because of that. Is that something to even worry about?

 

[TheHorta]

@TheHorta.... looking back on this thread with the pictures you posted are you concerned about bashing the TOR on stuff since it is mounted on the bottom?? I immediately think of throwing the rifle on a pack or a branch... and CRACK... bye bye TOR... I mounted mine on top because of that. Is that something to even worry about?

I don’t operate, so little chance of that being a problem for me personally. Also, the TOR is solid aluminum, so it’s going to take a beating. That said, for me it came down to asthetics and operation. It looked out-of-place on top and it was more difficult to activate as I had to change my support hand grip to get to the switch. In its current position, all I need to do is point my index finger to hit the switch.

Would be awesome if it had a micro connector for a tape switch.

 

[Spooky68]

I don’t operate, so little chance of that being a problem for me personally. Also, the TOR is solid aluminum, so it’s going to take a beating. That said, for me it came down to asthetics and operation. It looked out-of-place on top and it was more difficult to activate as I had to change my support hand grip to get to the switch. In its current position, all I need to do is point my index finger to hit the switch.

Would be awesome if it had a micro connector for a tape switch.

Thanks... I’m no operator either. I’m gonna rethink my setup.

 

[verdugo60]