Just started - group size?

[Equitum]

I'm going to put up some pictures as soon as I can find my camera, but until then, I'll just describe what's happening.

I'm having trouble getting groups anywhere close to 1" at 100 yards. The shots seem to be anywhere around the center with no definite pattern to the flyers - I say flyers because I'm almost certain it's me and not the rifle because I do sometimes have shots that line up right on top of each other and the ammo I'm using is top of the line (FGMM 168s and SWA Winchester 175s).

For right now, I'm shooting off of a bench because prone shooting isn't allowed at my closest range. I don't have a rear bag yet, but I'm shooting off of a Harris 6"-9" bipod at least.

My setup: Rem 700 SPS Varmint .308 in factory stock with the factory 26" barrel, X-Mark Pro trigger, Harris BRMS 6"-9" bipod, Falcon Menace 4-14x44 FFP mil/mil.

So far, the best group I've shot was almost exactly 1" with one called flyer and the size of a random group from the pile (that was an actual group and not full of flyers) was sitting at a little more than 3" , both at 100 yards. Is this a normal size group for just starting out? Could part of this be related to my equipment, i.e. no rear bag and factory stock? Should I keep shooting FGMM and SWA until my groups shrink more, or should I get some cheaper ammo to drill the fundamentals with?

Do any of you see a pattern in the groups (once I get the photos up of course)?
Edit: Pics going up tomorrow. Probably.

 

[yellowjacket]

Re: Just started - group size?

Keep shooting the FGMM it's good. You should fill an old sock with sand and use that for a rear bag until you get what you want. There may be other factors to your group size but I will leave for someone that knows more than me to comment on.

 

[savageman]

Re: Just started - group size?

Should have bought a savage!!

No first thing I would do is check and make sure nothing is loose with your scope mount or scope rings.

Then get a rear bag.

Make sure you take out all the parralax with the scope. DO NOT FIRE until you do not have a full sight picture with the scope. There should be no back edges with your sight picture through the scope.

If that doesn't work try a different scope.

 

[Bulldog308]

Re: Just started - group size?

Equitum,

If you are new to shooting, then don't expect to be stacking your shots up right off the bat. It will take some practice, but with patience and persistence it will come.

I started shooting with my dad when I was probably 6 or 8 yrs old with a pellet gun and worked my way up hunting and plinking around. I'm now 28 and I still don't have it all down to a fine science. I have my own flinching issues that I am currently breaking myself of.

I bought the Rem 700 SPS Tactical a few weeks ago and have been to the range twice. First time around wasn't so hot. Last weekend I was doing much better and walked away with a .515" 100yrd 3 shot group and a .520" 200yrd 3 shot group.

Give it time, and lots of lead down range and you will get there. Just remember to breathe. You might pick up a cheap, but decent, pellet gun and practice your basics in the garage or backyard. It's cheaper that way.

 

[Equitum]

Re: Just started - group size?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: savageman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Should have bought a savage!!

No first thing I would do is check and make sure nothing is loose with your scope mount or scope rings.

Then get a rear bag.

Make sure you take out all the parralax with the scope. DO NOT FIRE until you do not have a full sight picture with the scope. There should be no back edges with your sight picture through the scope.

If that doesn't work try a different scope. </div></div>

I don't think that my scope is the issue, since I can actually hold groups most of the time. They are pretty large groups, but I think that's user error. If all of my shots just went anywhere, I would start worrying. Even then, I've looked at the rings and base and clearance. I have enough clearance everywhere, and my rings are nice and tight, torqued to the right amount.
When it comes to the sight picture, I still have a little bit of shadow around the edges at the highest power, but I can't get my eye closer to the scope without the recoil actually knocking me in the eye. It's only the littlest of shadow, and the picture is clear, so I'm not that worried.

I'm going to get a rear bag ASAP, either a bunny-ears style one or I'll just grab a sock or something and fill it with sand and use that for a while.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bulldog308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Equitum,

If you are new to shooting, then don't expect to be stacking your shots up right off the bat. It will take some practice, but with patience and persistence it will come.

I started shooting with my dad when I was probably 6 or 8 yrs old with a pellet gun and worked my way up hunting and plinking around. I'm now 28 and I still don't have it all down to a fine science. I have my own flinching issues that I am currently breaking myself of.

I bought the Rem 700 SPS Tactical a few weeks ago and have been to the range twice. First time around wasn't so hot. Last weekend I was doing much better and walked away with a .515" 100yrd 3 shot group and a .520" 200yrd 3 shot group.

Give it time, and lots of lead down range and you will get there. Just remember to breathe. You might pick up a cheap, but decent, pellet gun and practice your basics in the garage or backyard. It's cheaper that way. </div></div>
I was thinking about getting a .22LR for like $200-$300 that I could just blast away with to practice, and it would maybe get some of my family into shooting too (the .22 would be a lot less intimidating for my sister and mom, for example).

 

[Bulldog308]

Re: Just started - group size?

If you have a place to shoot a 22LR then that would be a great investment. I don't have a place to shoot one at my house. So I am probably going to get a good pellet gun to practice with myself. I stole that advice from a bunch of others here and I am not afraid to admit it. LOL.

 

[Napsters]

Re: Just started - group size?

Sounds like parallax. You got to make sure you adjust it out.

 

[Equitum]

Re: Just started - group size?

Been looking at rear bags and such... I was thinking I would make my own with like a canvas bag or a sock or something filled with poly fill like some people on this site recommended in the threads I read, but then I stumbled onto the RedTac Rear Bag and I'll probably order one tomorrow.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Just started - group size?

You should subscribe to the online training here. With ammo at $1+ a round, it isn't hard to justify $100-200 for what you get from 'hide training.

I subscribed last year. While already a pretty good shooter, it was a help, and has been well worth the price.

Do it.

 

[Equitum]

Re: Just started - group size?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RedDevil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Napsters</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds like parallax. You got to make sure you adjust it out. </div></div>

+1

Even at highest magnification you shouldn't have a shadow. Try moving the scope back a bit to where there's no shadow and you have a proper cheek weld. 308 isn't recoil heavy so just make sure you are properly behind the rifle and you will be fine. If you're anticipating recoil or scope bite then you might be flinching slightly which will also cause to to pull shots. Good luck! </div></div>

I'll try and move it back. To get no shadow at all, it feels like I'm almost right up on the scope, which moves my cheek weld really uncomfortably forward... That'll at least fix the uncomfortable position. I guess I'll just move the scope back and then see if anything changes, and keep in mind flinching from the scope bite, as you call it, or recoil, after I get my rear bag. I just sent an email to Stu (since Triad didn't have the A.F.T.S. that Stu just got in and has a limited supply of) to get in contact and get a bag, so I should have it before I go back out to the range.

 

[Napsters]

Re: Just started - group size?

Put on glasses to prevent scope bite ithe a 308. They will let you know if the scope got near your face. If you have a proper shooting position it should not be a problem. If it is a problem, you need to fix it before you move to larger rifles or you will bleed.

 

[Joop]

Re: Just started - group size?

Check the obvious things to be sure they're tight, of course. However, the first thing I would want to do (providing everything is tight and in the right place), would be to have another experienced shooter (who you know is capable) fire a group with it and see how they do.

 

[JudasMac]

Re: Just started - group size?

A lot of people buy these SPS rifles simply for the barreled action, knowing full well it needs a stock replacement and some upgrades. If you're applying the fundamentals to your shooting, then I'd look at your equipment, possibly a stock that can be bedded. Chincy rings and bases have also caused this same problem for me in the past. If you're going to build a sandsock, the best thing I've found to use is airsoft BB's. I've used the same homemade sandsock in the military for years, made it through sniper school and several deployments with airsoft BB's. Best of luck

 

[JudasMac]

Re: Just started - group size?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Check the obvious things to be sure they're tight, of course. However, the first thing I would want to do (providing everything is tight and in the right place), would be to have another experienced shooter (who you know is capable) fire a group with it and see how they do. </div></div>

and this too^^^^

 

[Equitum]

Re: Just started - group size?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JudasMac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A lot of people buy these SPS rifles simply for the barreled action, knowing full well it needs a stock replacement and some upgrades. If you're applying the fundamentals to your shooting, then I'd look at your equipment, possibly a stock that can be bedded. Chincy rings and bases have also caused this same problem for me in the past. If you're going to build a sandsock, the best thing I've found to use is airsoft BB's. I've used the same homemade sandsock in the military for years, made it through sniper school and several deployments with airsoft BB's. Best of luck </div></div>
I'm using a Leuppy base and rings, so as far as I know, that shouldn't be part of the problem.
Very next thing I'm doing, once I can pay for it, is upgrading the stock.

 

[Lockback]

Re: Just started - group size?

how fast are you shooting? are you timing your shots? my little sps, brandy, will always shoot .2 mils low cold bore with 168 or 175 matchkings, keyhole the next three then number five will go .2 mils high if i were to load up 5 rounds and shoot all with no real break. what i'm saying is watch for patterns if your blasting away with no time between shots your groups are going to open up. i put together my old win. stealth, joyce, last week and took it out to the range and something as small as where i had my cheek against the stock would produce different groups at different poi for every change i made on cheekweld. I am curious what the hell kind of eye relief that scope has if you're getting biten in a seated postition off a bench from a 308. +1 on the eye pro if not for scope bite but you said its a public range, i feel like i should wear my sapi plates when i go to public ranges here, some folks are stupid.

 

[Equitum]

Re: Just started - group size?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lockback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how fast are you shooting? are you timing your shots? my little sps, brandy, will always shoot .2 mils low cold bore with 168 or 175 matchkings, keyhole the next three then number five will go .2 mils high if i were to load up 5 rounds and shoot all with no real break. what i'm saying is watch for patterns if your blasting away with no time between shots your groups are going to open up. i put together my old win. stealth, joyce, last week and took it out to the range and something as small as where i had my cheek against the stock would produce different groups at different poi for every change i made on cheekweld. I am curious what the hell kind of eye relief that scope has if you're getting biten in a seated postition off a bench from a 308. +1 on the eye pro if not for scope bite but you said its a public range, i feel like i should wear my sapi plates when i go to public ranges here, some folks are stupid. </div></div>

It's supposed to be a 3" eye relief IIRC. Edit2: Just looked. 3.86" at max magnification.

I'm letting the barrel cool down every 10-15 rounds for about 15-20 minutes depending on how hot it is outside. I also take short mini breaks in between 5-round groups, and at least 10-15 seconds in between each shot, usually. I notice that when I get a little antsy from being out in 95+ degree heat at the end of a range session I rush my shots a little more, and the groups open up, but at that point I'm more worried about getting back inside and rehydrating!

Edit: I'm not really getting bit by the scope per se, but I have gotten knocked on the glasses/eyebrows more times than I'd like, which really screws with my follow up.

 

[Dibby]

Re: Just started - group size?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Check the obvious things to be sure they're tight, of course. However, the first thing I would want to do (providing everything is tight and in the right place), would be to have another experienced shooter (who you know is capable) fire a group with it and see how they do. </div></div>

+1 to this and a rear bag.
A rear bag cut my groups in half from the bench.

GL to ya and keep us posted.

Dib

 

[fenwick253]

Re: Just started - group size?

A good shooting position (especially on a bench) shouldn't be uncomfortable. Your cheek weld should feel as you are resting your head on your stock, not straining your neck as to get a good sight picture. If you can't rest your head, get a adjustable cheek rest (or foam and duct tape...) or move your scope up, down, fore, aft. As for flinch, have somebody load a magazine with live & dummy rounds. You'll see if your pulling the gun very quickly.

 

[K2Ballistics]

Re: Just started - group size?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You should subscribe to the online training here. With ammo at $1+ a round, it isn't hard to justify $100-200 for what you get from 'hide training.

I subscribed last year. While already a pretty good shooter, it was a help, and has been well worth the price.

Do it. </div></div>

Sounds like the best advice you have received so far.

 

[JudasMac]

Re: Just started - group size?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Equitum</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JudasMac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A lot of people buy these SPS rifles simply for the barreled action, knowing full well it needs a stock replacement and some upgrades. If you're applying the fundamentals to your shooting, then I'd look at your equipment, possibly a stock that can be bedded. Chincy rings and bases have also caused this same problem for me in the past. If you're going to build a sandsock, the best thing I've found to use is airsoft BB's. I've used the same homemade sandsock in the military for years, made it through sniper school and several deployments with airsoft BB's. Best of luck </div></div>
I'm using a Leuppy base and rings, so as far as I know, that shouldn't be part of the problem.
Very next thing I'm doing, once I can pay for it, is upgrading the stock.

</div></div>

When I said Chincy base and rings, I was referring to the Leupold base and rings I had on the gun at the time. But, at that time they didn't have the Mark 4 series of base and rings and it was more of a hunting style. I switched to Badger 20moa base and Max 50 rings and have never looked back. If you have the Mark 4 stuff, you should be ok though.

 

[TonyAngel]

Re: Just started - group size?

Equitum, I don't know if you are new to this, but don't set your expectations too high. Not at first, anyway.

It's hard to get on sites like this and many others, start reading about what others have done, or claimed to have done, and then get to the range and find that you can't do it.

Lots of guys make claims of shooting sub MOA "all day long." Some can, some only on good days and some are just all talk. My point is, don't start off by mind screwing yourself.

The name of the game is learning how to do it and then practice. First, shooting off of a bipod isn't easy and is much easier said than done. I've seen lots of guys do well off of sand bags and then wonder why they can't hit anything off of a bipod. I'd suggest taking the online training offered here. It made a world of difference to me. When shooting off of a bipod, form is everything.

I'd also quit worrying so much about shooting groups. For some, shooting groups is the thing to do. Fact of the matter is that a zero group doesn't help if you aren't hitting your intended target. I'd spend more time on shooting dot drills. That way, you are not only practicing squeezing the trigger, but are also practicing transitions and maintaining your form.

Being able to shoot groups will come. The only thing I really shoot groups for is to make sure that my ammo is consistent.

I like to shoot at target sheets that have a series of 25 1/2" circles, when shooting at 100.

As for the original question, my experience with Remington's SPS models is that most are capable of very sub MOA groups. Your equipment should't be a problem.