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Kaboom at Manatee today!
- Thread starter Queequeg
- Start date
Just a thought. Does anyone think the thin chamber wall thickness could be causing the stuck cases? Maybe as the case and chamber swell and contract with each other they become tightly fit. Of course hot loads would cause this to get worse.
It is common knowledge that the savage 338 rifles have issues with with stuck fired brass. Usually hornady. I'd say that this explosion was an indirect result.
I'd say you didn't notice the cleaning rod that was in the barrel from muzzle end when a live round was chambered and fired. If his loads were on the hot side it matters not. It appears by the amount of empty brass in that one photo that the rifle had handled it all until then.
I did notice. That is why I called it an indirect result. If the savage 338 110 wasn't such a piece of shit that you have to knock out factory cases then this dumb ass probably wouldn't have had the cleaning rod in his gun trying to jab one out.
Noted.
The reason this happened is someone lost focus and nothing more. Maybe his loads were hot, maybe not. Maybe his chamber, maybe his loading process, maybe anything that took place prior to this instant are not 100%.
There is no reason(and we have no proof) to call Savage rifles "shit" and I did not intend for my initial comments to take the thread there. OP, I am sorry if your thread meant to remind us nothing more than to be always aware and cautious in our endeavors at the range was derailed by my comment on Savage chambers. I found myself "sucked in".
It doesn't take a large round like the 338 Lapua to take a rifle apart. Last summer I had two factory built heavy barrel 17 HMR's in the shop that blew up while hunting with factory 17 HMR rimfire ammo. Both guys said they sounded like big gun blasts. Barrels didn't rupture but the bulged the chambers bad enough to stretch the actions out of shape. Both had major debris blast back into their faces. Both were hunting from pickups shooting out the windows and carried muzzle up. No bore obstruction possible unless they were squib loads but no damage was noted in the bores.
This is why I like the Weatherby Mark 5 action so much. The bolt has a metal shroud over the back of the firing pin to help keep stuff out of your face in a mishap.
This is why I like the Weatherby Mark 5 action so much. The bolt has a metal shroud over the back of the firing pin to help keep stuff out of your face in a mishap.
I've shot Manatee many weekends for years and have seen things. This is one of the worst. Thank God no-one was seriously injured. I stopped shooters a few times from doing this exact thing. Gene and the crew should post a reminder on the line for people that insert rods from the muzzle end to remove them before going back hot. Oneday it will not be just a minor scrape. I've looked the action over the best I can on my computer and it looks twisted bad, maybe a little tear up front. Savage actions are very strong, it did it's job...
A local guy had a 257 Wby built on a Win Model 70 with a min throat for hand loads so he could "reach the lands." He ended up with a box of factory ammo and decided to shoot them rather than pull them and load the brass. First shot blew a primer. The second blew it up worse than this one.
Jesus!! The other day my buddy asked why I didn't get a bullpup instead of a traditional rifle ^^^
Heading out this Thursday, anyone else?
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Worth giving this a bump. Great idea. Great standard practice.
Also a damn good thing the shrapnel went 12:00, instead of 3:00 or 9:00. Coulda' wiped out the entire line.
Also a damn good thing the shrapnel went 12:00, instead of 3:00 or 9:00. Coulda' wiped out the entire line.
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I shot a 1000 yard Gong shoot there some years ago. I was shooting my son's 7WSM, I got sighted in without a problem. When I started shooting for score the extractor broke on me, big chip came out of it. This was a Win. model 70 Coyote. Back then we shot the shoot under time, 1 shooter at a time, so no one else was firing. I'd shoot, open the bolt, standup, rod the case out, and sit back down load and fire again. Needless to say it was not one of my better scores, upside was I removed the rod everytime. I always go to the range with my cleaning rod. I always clean from the breech end, and pick up my patches unless I have a catch tube.
I was telling the story of this Ka-Boom at the range yesterday and the guy I was talking to told me of how a broken extractor was handled with him. After the extractor broke he started to put the cleaning rod down the muzzle. A shooter next to him, who had finished shooting, told him "Sit Down, I'll handle the cleaning rod. That way you won't have to change your position and I'll be sure the cleaning rod isn't left in the bore with you then blowing both of us up" Sounded like someone had their thinking cap on that day.
This also illustrates the power of compression. The rod is loose so it is not a tight obstruction. An old timer told me he used to remove tree trunks with dynamite. The stick would not do anything to the tree trunk unless it was covered with some mud or dirt pile. I guess this us an example I that. You would think the rod would shoot outward the path of least resistance. Be safe and live to shoot another day.
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Amazing no one was seriously injured. Kind of a wake up call for everyone. It's a tall order to be 100% focused on safety at all times. That's one thing I've learned over the years, everyone makes mistakes and it only takes a split second to change you or someone else's life forever. 99% of the time a guy gets away with being a dumbass, the other one percent is well, why threads like this start.
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"Glad everyone was okay. Could happen to anyone."
"It's a tall order to be 100% focused on safety at all times. That's one thing I've learned over the years, everyone makes mistakes and it only takes a split second to change you or someone else's life forever."
No, it can only happen to some one with their head so far up their ass as to be unable to tell if it is night or day. These are implements capable of inflicting serious damage or death to those operating the instrument or those in the vicinity. That means 100% focus on safety, 100% of the time. It is NOT OK to fuck up once in a while. Any action having to do with a weapon, loaded or unloaded for that matter, should require focus, fore thought and examination before initiation.
"It's a tall order to be 100% focused on safety at all times. That's one thing I've learned over the years, everyone makes mistakes and it only takes a split second to change you or someone else's life forever."
No, it can only happen to some one with their head so far up their ass as to be unable to tell if it is night or day. These are implements capable of inflicting serious damage or death to those operating the instrument or those in the vicinity. That means 100% focus on safety, 100% of the time. It is NOT OK to fuck up once in a while. Any action having to do with a weapon, loaded or unloaded for that matter, should require focus, fore thought and examination before initiation.
Some people forget firearms are not "toys". Im always checking and re-checking when it comes to "risky" hobbies. Im never in a rush to send my rounds and that should be standard procedure. With that said, glad everyone walked away unwounded. This is also why i always wear eye protection required or not.
Live and learn.
Live and learn.
Can we assume by your statement that YOU have NEVER screwed up? Not even once? Perhaps you're still young.
I think we all have had some type of error in some form in the field and/or hobby. Some have higher consequences than others, more often than not, we realize that "that was dumb" or won't do that again" learn and drive on. Although not what occurred here, accidental, negligent or unintended discharges(whatever you want to call them) There are those who have had them and those who haven't--YET
Well, Deadshot, in point of fact, I am young, 71 years young.
And no, when it comes to safety, I try not to screw up. Had one negligent discharge about 30 years ago while handling a gun with which I was not fully familiar. I don't expect you would recognize the gun though. For those that might, it was a Ljutic Space Gun with a release trigger. Because I was still cognizant of the rest of the safety rules, the discharge went harmlessly down a still hot range.
Well, Deadshot, in point of fact, I am young, 71 years young.
And no, when it comes to safety, I try not to screw up. Had one negligent discharge about 30 years ago while handling a gun with which I was not fully familiar. I don't expect you would recognize the gun though. For those that might, it was a Ljutic Space Gun with a release trigger. Because I was still cognizant of the rest of the safety rules, the discharge went harmlessly down a still hot range.
I always wondered why the NRA specifically bans release triggers in the high power rule book. I didn't realize people actually used to make them. (Or do they still?) They seem inherently dangerous and without benefit.
Damon,
Oh, they can be dangerous all right. When a malfunction occurs or you can't clear the gun by letting one go down range, they require the same manipulation of controls as you would use with a conventional trigger but with a release, you have to hold the trigger back the whole time until the action is open. Most of them have very little stroke involved as well so it is not like much movement is required to release the sear.
For fast sports like trap doubles they do improve on reaction times and they can add, if you are using a double release like I liked, a certain rhythm to the shooting. "Leggo to kill 1'st bird, squeeze while moving gun to second, leggo for 2nd bird".. They are still legal and still made.
My Ljutic was a single shot and basically a bolt action with the bolt handle under the action, forward of the trigger guard. Trigger wasn't, it was just a button on the pistol grip. So you turned the gun, dropped a round into the chamber and then hit a bolt release. Gun is a target gun, there are no safeties. You then mounted the gun and pulled the trigger. When you let go of the trigger the gun fired. If you had to stop this action at any point after you pulled the trigger, you had to maintain the trigger pull, remove gun from shoulder, let go of the fore end and using your left hand, manipulate the bolt to open the action and eject the round. Lots of opportunity to step on your private parts.
All that said, they are magic on the trap line. Something like 15 less muscles required to fire the gun. I wouldn't want one on my bolt action though. Not anymore.
Oh, they can be dangerous all right. When a malfunction occurs or you can't clear the gun by letting one go down range, they require the same manipulation of controls as you would use with a conventional trigger but with a release, you have to hold the trigger back the whole time until the action is open. Most of them have very little stroke involved as well so it is not like much movement is required to release the sear.
For fast sports like trap doubles they do improve on reaction times and they can add, if you are using a double release like I liked, a certain rhythm to the shooting. "Leggo to kill 1'st bird, squeeze while moving gun to second, leggo for 2nd bird".. They are still legal and still made.
My Ljutic was a single shot and basically a bolt action with the bolt handle under the action, forward of the trigger guard. Trigger wasn't, it was just a button on the pistol grip. So you turned the gun, dropped a round into the chamber and then hit a bolt release. Gun is a target gun, there are no safeties. You then mounted the gun and pulled the trigger. When you let go of the trigger the gun fired. If you had to stop this action at any point after you pulled the trigger, you had to maintain the trigger pull, remove gun from shoulder, let go of the fore end and using your left hand, manipulate the bolt to open the action and eject the round. Lots of opportunity to step on your private parts.
All that said, they are magic on the trap line. Something like 15 less muscles required to fire the gun. I wouldn't want one on my bolt action though. Not anymore.
He had better go to church EARLY on Sunday... because he owes Mr Murphy a BIG time favor! Wow.
Well, Deadshot, in point of fact, I am young, 71 years young.
And no, when it comes to safety, I try not to screw up.
We share the same age and concern for safety. Face it though. Not many people try to screw up. It remains a fact of life that $%^! still happens.
When I go to the range I find it amazing how many of the "youngsters" like you and I, that have been shooting all our lives, seem to have the most problems however. Nothing more dangerous than complacency.
As it was said earlier, there are two kinds of shooters when it comes to "accidents". Those who've had one and those who haven't -------yet. I think sometimes that accidents like this one are supposed to happen from time to time in order to remind us ALL that we need to be on our toes.
Well I kinda feel the same way, when using an instrument of death that involves high pressure explosive agents in a crowded or public area you really need to notch your game up a bit, if not to protect yourself but those innocent around you. Key here is to take your time, pay attention to what you are doing with the basics, not letting your mind wander because you are thinking about the load you are testing.
This is a good thread. Complacency is a killer. Everyone is susceptible to it, and it is our job to remain vigilant.
In 20+ years, I have never had an accident or a negligent discharge (although I came close once with a 2 oz BR trigger - I was on target, looking through the scope, and about to fire though, so I'm not sure that counts.)
But...
Have I ever shot a rifle without visually inspecting the bore? Guilty.
Have I ever knocked out a stuck round with a cleaning rod in the middle of a match (already under a little stress), and not visually inspected the bore before continuing? Guilty.
Have I ever seen someone doing the same and not spent the extra few seconds to verify that they wouldn't blow themselves up? Guilty.
These are areas that I will improve on, thanks to threads like this.
The above recommendation to put a piece of cardboard on the cleaning rod is brilliant - simple and effective. I'll be doing that.
Other things I do.
-I check every handload three times for powder. Once visually, once audibly (shaking the case as I put it into the ammo box), and once by weight (I grab a few at a time and make sure the total weight is consistent - it takes a second or two). That might be excessive, but I've never had a squib. Never is a good number. It's not so much the squib, as the next one that matters...
-I learned to speak up. I was more reserved when I was younger, but grew out of it when I had a rifle inadvertently pointed at me at the range. Speak up. Politely and firmly.
-I give people space when they're shooting. There is a time and a place to BS - and it's well behind the range. You don't want to be someone else's distraction that causes them to leave the cleaning rod in the rifle or a round in the chamber.
In 20+ years, I have never had an accident or a negligent discharge (although I came close once with a 2 oz BR trigger - I was on target, looking through the scope, and about to fire though, so I'm not sure that counts.)
But...
Have I ever shot a rifle without visually inspecting the bore? Guilty.
Have I ever knocked out a stuck round with a cleaning rod in the middle of a match (already under a little stress), and not visually inspected the bore before continuing? Guilty.
Have I ever seen someone doing the same and not spent the extra few seconds to verify that they wouldn't blow themselves up? Guilty.
These are areas that I will improve on, thanks to threads like this.
The above recommendation to put a piece of cardboard on the cleaning rod is brilliant - simple and effective. I'll be doing that.
Other things I do.
-I check every handload three times for powder. Once visually, once audibly (shaking the case as I put it into the ammo box), and once by weight (I grab a few at a time and make sure the total weight is consistent - it takes a second or two). That might be excessive, but I've never had a squib. Never is a good number. It's not so much the squib, as the next one that matters...
-I learned to speak up. I was more reserved when I was younger, but grew out of it when I had a rifle inadvertently pointed at me at the range. Speak up. Politely and firmly.
-I give people space when they're shooting. There is a time and a place to BS - and it's well behind the range. You don't want to be someone else's distraction that causes them to leave the cleaning rod in the rifle or a round in the chamber.
I think there are mostly two types of shooters; those who have had an unintended consequence and those who will. That's my kind of safe assumption.
I respect the admonitions that accidents should never happen, but damned of they don't anyway. Rather than looking down my own nose, I prefer to learn from whatever experiences, mine or others', that I can.
I think that there are two levels of self protection that can be useful here.
The first is to keep a mental eye out for threats to safety from ourselves and others. The other is to modify our behavior so that even if an unintended consequence occurs, it does so that the outcome is innocuous.
An example would be to observe safe trigger discipline with religious attention, while simultaneously making sure the muzzle is always pointed in a safe manner.
Greg
I respect the admonitions that accidents should never happen, but damned of they don't anyway. Rather than looking down my own nose, I prefer to learn from whatever experiences, mine or others', that I can.
I think that there are two levels of self protection that can be useful here.
The first is to keep a mental eye out for threats to safety from ourselves and others. The other is to modify our behavior so that even if an unintended consequence occurs, it does so that the outcome is innocuous.
An example would be to observe safe trigger discipline with religious attention, while simultaneously making sure the muzzle is always pointed in a safe manner.
Greg
I find that once is the safest way to do it. Drop and weigh the charge, pour in case, and seat bullet immediately. Filling a "block" of cases may be the most expedient but it's also a bunch of filled cases sitting there open to all kinds of errors. Spilled powder, a "wet sneeze", and who knows, even a bug or two.
I find it better to just do the three part operation in a single continuous step. Safer too. Any time lost by not filling the block of cases is more than made up in not having to look, shake, or weigh (which has it's own limitations).
That's what I do. However, I'm not sure it's best, and that is why I triple check. I have accidentally picked up an empty case and gone to seat a bullet on top of nothing before. I caught myself by looking in the case before seating. But that makes you wonder. I was distracted enough to pick up the wrong case. Might I also have been distracted enough to skip the visual check? In that case, no. It's never happened to me - I've never gone to shake a case and not heard the powder inside. But it makes me think that a second check is wise.
There is one thing about filling a block that strikes me as safer, though. If you only have 50 cases out, and you put them all in the block and then load them all with powder, you can easily visually inspect every case very quickly and it will be impossible to seat a bullet on an empty case. I just get nervous about spilling them, but I'm thinking about going this route in the future - it just seems like less can go wrong. Spilling powder is inconvenient, not unsafe.
I haven't come up with a good way to check Dillon rounds (outside of pistol, which I can still check visually), which is part of the reason I don't load rifles on Dillons. I know they have a powder check die, but do they work on .223? Maybe I'll rig one up of my own if it doesn't.
I load on a Dillon 550 and have loaded a empty before on three occasions over the last 15 years. The rounds had the primer fire but the bullet remained seated. I left them chambered and counted to 10 in the event of a hang fire, finding only the full cartridge ejected, leaving nothing in the breach.
Nice thing about the bolt guns; it's not exactly a back breaker to pull the bolt and look through the bore.
Nice thing about the bolt guns; it's not exactly a back breaker to pull the bolt and look through the bore.
1. Seating a bullet on an empty case is a PITA but it won't cause a Ka-Boom like an excessive charge can. If you extract an empty case after a squib definitely want to check the bore but I've found that the two times that's happened to me (in 40 years) the bullet didn't even leave the case neck (rifle).
2. I don't see charging a whole block of cases as safer than charge/seating one at a time. You have a whole lot of charged cases sitting there with nothing covering them. Get an urgent call of nature and leave 1/3 of the way through finishing the process and you've had them out of your sight and control for the duration of your "bladder gladder time". That alone is a safety concern to me although my wife is the only other one in the house. Have you ever had "fumble fingers"? Ever gone to pick up a case, fumbled it, and spilled powder? What might happen if you did that from the block of charged cases? Where would the spilled powder go? Open cases are a good possibility. Ignore and you've got one or more cases with an incorrect charge. Being safe you'd most likely go back and dump all the unfinished cases. One is dangerous and the other is a PITA.
3. The powder check for Dillon works fine on .223 cases. I load thousands of rounds of .223 for my AR's on a Dillon 650. I consider this an essential tool for any progressive operation where you are moving at a fair rate of speed. Any issues with powder from overcharge to no charge will send a clear warning. Won't tell you if your charge weight is "off" but it will warn you if it's unsafe. I also have a light on my seating station that lets me actually look into the case as I set a bullet on it.
For my Bolt Action .223 I just follow the charge one/seat one, place finished round in the box. system.
Just remember, having 50 cases charged with powder just sitting in a block without bullets is 50 cases that are exposed to anything that might fall into them. A dropped primer (live or spent), spilled powder from a "juggled" case, moisture if you have super high humidity (or even from a wet sneeze), or anything else that can fall out of the air. Does it happen a lot? Probably not. I just don't want it to happen "once".
I have yet to figure out why it is "more expedient."
If I am using a normal powder measure with a ball powder, I pick up a case, charge it with powder, seat a bullet.
If I am using my ChargeMaster, I pick up a case and the funnel, wait for the CM to finish, drop the charge, seat the bullet.
Not sure how using a loading block would be better.
Those were my thoughts, a resizing problem. My Springfield M1A supermatch will only function reliably if I crunch the brass to hit the bottom of the drop gauge. Never had trouble with a savage that I didn't cause, I've had sticky bolt lift on loads that I knew were mild but I had only been neck sizing. Then again I've never had the desire for a 338LM either.
Absolutely! Reduced case volume.
Rumor also has it that the cockroach survives the trip downrange.
Mount a mirror on your Dillion so you see the top of a case after you drop the powder. Have to adjust sight line depending on your set up but it works. I also polish the inside of the powder die and bar because RL15 would hang up once and awhile and that helped. Dryer sheet on the powder hopper too. Ran thousands of rounds through my 550.
Good stuff and these incidents are reminders to all of us as muscle memory and our own brains are our worse enemy. Glad the person wasn't seriously hurt and we all learn from it. The rifle loses this time...
Good stuff and these incidents are reminders to all of us as muscle memory and our own brains are our worse enemy. Glad the person wasn't seriously hurt and we all learn from it. The rifle loses this time...
Could you imagine if that was a DTA and you had a chunk go through your face?! I prefer keeping my face away from the chamber section of a barrel, accidents CAN and DO happen.
