KAC rifles worth the money?

[Cobracutter]

and this thread went down the shitter. As i was saying, fan boys of every flavor will talk down on anything they don't own to make themselves feel better on their purchase. Why not enjoy what you bought and shoot it till the barrel melts and not feel the need to justify it with some mystifying explanation on nuclear engineers formulating its design by the position of the planets and its correlation with space and time. WHO GIVES A FUCK. You like your KAC, dpms, lmt, larue etc more power to ya I refuse to stand by and have people say that one is the ONLY way to go, your dillusional and need medication. Just like there is no perfect answer to bolt guns, pistols, etc. "worth" the money is a relative question on how much you want to spend, return on investment, and resale and how much your worried about each one. Now you can all go back to drooling over your spotless guns in your gunsafe that somehow you think make you any closer to a tier one operator.

No one said there is only one way to go. You of all people know weapons are tools and you use the right tool for the mission (or job for us dirty civies).
When ignorant and new shooters come here asking advice on what to buy, and most of them don't have pockets full of cash allowing them to try everything out, its only prudent to offer them quality advice.

Some of the shit being recomended, is shit. Its is a poor choice with verifiable data to back it up. Either poor parts, poor assembly, poor design or Poor value compared to the rest of the market (or any combination of). They have been run hard by guys who know what they are doing, and have come up short. Take a look at Pat Rodger's review in SWAT and his posting after it came out. While he said nothing derogitory about the company personaly(LWRC), and even said he liked the guns, they choked and failed at a much higher rate than known quanities (BCM, Colt, DD). They required multiple trips back to the factory for repair. Parts are not easy to come by. They are propitary. Hey Since Im the KAC fanboy now... KAC parts may be pripitary... but they wont fucking break. And in the chance your super expensive E3 bolt breaks (Which I have yet to see or even read about), you can run a normal bolt. On top of this.... you end up with more recoil and a heavier gun. Then in the end, the product is priced 50%-100% over the best guns on the market. If you are fine with all that... then go to town and get your a LWRC, show to your friends, and come onto the internet and brag about your 3/4" 250 groups with it.

You can go to Quiet Proffesionals or SOCNET or talk with some turned on guys and get some really fucking bad weapon advice from guys who are cut from a differnt cloth. I'm not saying that is you, but you also know there are plenty of guys on the teams and in group who don't know fuck all about weaponry and shoot what they are given. Having a Tab or a Trident doesn't make some guy Larry Vickers or Kyle Defoor.

And I for one would love to hear about your experinces with the SCAR, if your not restricted due to NDA's. But that is a conversation for another thread/day.

 

[VJJPunisher]

I'm a hipoint fanboy, kac ain't got shit a hipoint carbine. Lick my balls

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

cobra you drop me a pm and when i get some time i'll respond with more details. i'm leaving this thread at that.

 

[Mr_Happyface]

WAIT A SECOND...

SR15 Mod 2??

What is this all about? Couldn't find anything online about it.




I have a mod 1 and love it, sold all of my other ARs and bought two of them. They are the best, no question.

 

[Delta4-3]

Noooo don't go, it's just now getting good!

 

[Delta4-3]

I'm going to head to Walmart now guys. When I get back I'll tell you what brand of truck to buy. All the rest will fall apart as soon as you leave the lot, and SEAL team 27 uses the one like mine, so that's awesome. (haven't heard of team 27? Freakin OPSEC yo!) raaaaarrrrrrr! Break your spark plugs on a stump! Raaaarrrrrrrrr, growl, raaarrrrr!

guy on a buffalo - Google Search

You have to watch all four episodes if you never have, they're awesome.

 

[K_4c]

No one said there is only one way to go. You of all people know weapons are tools and you use the right tool for the mission (or job for us dirty civies).
When ignorant and new shooters come here asking advice on what to buy, and most of them don't have pockets full of cash allowing them to try everything out, its only prudent to offer them quality advice.

Some of the shit being recomended, is shit. Its is a poor choice with verifiable data to back it up. Either poor parts, poor assembly, poor design or Poor value compared to the rest of the market (or any combination of). They have been run hard by guys who know what they are doing, and have come up short. Take a look at Pat Rodger's review in SWAT and his posting after it came out. While he said nothing derogitory about the company personaly(LWRC), and even said he liked the guns, they choked and failed at a much higher rate than known quanities (BCM, Colt, DD). They required multiple trips back to the factory for repair. Parts are not easy to come by. They are propitary. Hey Since Im the KAC fanboy now... KAC parts may be pripitary... but they wont fucking break. And in the chance your super expensive E3 bolt breaks (Which I have yet to see or even read about), you can run a normal bolt. On top of this.... you end up with more recoil and a heavier gun. Then in the end, the product is priced 50%-100% over the best guns on the market. If you are fine with all that... then go to town and get your a LWRC, show to your friends, and come onto the internet and brag about your 3/4" 250 groups with it.

You can go to Quiet Proffesionals or SOCNET or talk with some turned on guys and get some really fucking bad weapon advice from guys who are cut from a differnt cloth. I'm not saying that is you, but you also know there are plenty of guys on the teams and in group who don't know fuck all about weaponry and shoot what they are given. Having a Tab or a Trident doesn't make some guy Larry Vickers or Kyle Defoor.

And I for one would love to hear about your experinces with the SCAR, if your not restricted due to NDA's. But that is a conversation for another thread/day.

I had a scar-16.... sold it 3 days later. Recoil impulse was comparable to an AK-47 IMO.... Not a fan, nothing really impressed me about it.

 

[scatsob]

I actually didn't mind the 16s I owned and thought the recoil was fantastic, no where near the numerous ak's I have owned (my knowledge base is more ak oriented having built a few myself).

 

[Delta4-3]

We're done already? Well darn. My day is shot.

 

[poison123]

We're done already? Well darn. My day is shot.

Don't worry.....we'll start again in a new thread in a day or 3.

 

[Regalkismet]

About what made those list of firearms more worth the cost than the others.

Take for instance a custom rem700 vs the AX. First are we talking about a trued rem700 action or aftermarket clone action like the Defiance or Surgeon?

If your talking about a trued remmy....ya if you build one up in a AX stock and essentially mimic everything you can vs the true AX. Your looking at roughly a 2000 - 2500 dollar difference between the two. Is the AI REALLY worth that over the remmy, nope. I've shot nothing but AI's for 4 years I'm a huge fanboy, but I'll be the first say that unless your jumping out of plane or whatever on a 2 way range, then no there's no real advantage, the AI has over the trued Remmy. Its personnel preference plain and simple.

If you want the KAC just buy it. No one is gonna give you shit because its what "YOU" wanted. Shoot it, don't shoot it...it doesn't matter. Where you will get crucified is if you start trying to give advice out about how awesome it is and you don't actually do anything on it.

I don't know cobracutters background, but he comes off as a asshole in virtually every thread on this forum.

I know bigjoe's background....and listen to his opinion and value it. But I still end up going against him on a lot of things just to get my own experience with it.


If the KAC is what you want get it, don't try collect opinions to justify it to yourself on here. Majority of the people on this site are completely full of shit and like others have mentioned, have never shot their rifles enough to truly warrant a good barrel cleaning let alone a rebarrel.

Guys please don't respond to Cobracutters abusive profanity laced responses demeaning anyone who disagrees with him. It just encourages his rants and nothing anyone says will convince him otherwise if it is contrary to his opinion. He just about ruined my thread asking about opinions on the LWRC SPR once again demeaning posters who disagree with him. The only thing I have ever agreed with him is the SR 15 is a great platform
Here is a link to my thread. As Yogi Berra said it is deja vu all over again.

Link to my thread. Note the same prone abusive rant once again.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...op-gun-supply-reputation-comments-please.html
Does the word hate monger come to mind?

I agree..... Turdcutter has a history of stinking up this forum.

 

[2680fps]

I just finished the process of buying an ER and making a 110. What I didn't know going into it was that the barrel threading is next to impossible. KAC makes a proprietary barrel nut and the wrench to remove the nut and the URX rail are $500 each so no one has them. I sent my upper around the country to some of the best shops (mile high shooting, ect) they all said they could do it but ultimately couldn't. Finally got hooked up with boltcarrier.com (Ayan) and he actually bought all of the wrenches to facilitate. Plus he only specializes in KAC and is right up the road from them. Short of it, he was able to remove the barrel, get it threaded and complete my M110 build. Very nice job.

Great rifles, I own both sr-15 and sr-25's and they are the best I have owned. The fit, finish and engineering that is built into them are top notch.

Good luck.

 

[scatsob]

Pictures please .

I just finished the process of buying an ER and making a 110. What I didn't know going into it was that the barrel threading is next to impossible. KAC makes a proprietary barrel nut and the wrench to remove the nut and the URX rail are $500 each so no one has them. I sent my upper around the country to some of the best shops (mile high shooting, ect) they all said they could do it but ultimately couldn't. Finally got hooked up with boltcarrier.com (Ayan) and he actually bought all of the wrenches to facilitate. Plus he only specializes in KAC and is right up the road from them. Short of it, he was able to remove the barrel, get it threaded and complete my M110 build. Very nice job.

Great rifles, I own both sr-15 and sr-25's and they are the best I have owned. The fit, finish and engineering that is built into them are top notch.

Good luck.

 

[Cobracutter]

I had a scar-16.... sold it 3 days later. Recoil impulse was comparable to an AK-47 IMO.... Not a fan, nothing really impressed me about it.

I was talking about the 17. I'm not really a fan of the 16, it doesn't really bring much to the table compared to the Block 2 SOPMOD. This was the reason JSOC dropped the 16 in favor of the 17.

 

[Mr_Happyface]

Let's hear about this SR15 Mod 2!!!!!!!

 

[Cobracutter]

Let's hear about this SR15 Mod 2!!!!!!!

I was just making the point of why people would sell their SR-15's..... Like when the E3 Came out, or when the Mod 1 replaced the Mod 0 (Although I would love to find a mod 0, I love the look and they way they feel).

You don't see them on the secondary market for a reason.

 

[shane45]

Price and Value are not synonymouse. The things that I might place a value on may hold no value to others. Many things can drive the value bus. The convesation starts to get muddy when you start to factor in diminished returns. Or the conversation can easily go south when you try and factor in the price of pride of ownership. But shooters, especially real shooters, tend to place more value on results than the item its self. And this is where the price and the consideration of diminished returns comes into play. I guess the point is that value is all over the map, and so it will be likely impossible for everyone to agree on that topic.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

I tried to say that. But people who have never used them in poor conditions, like we have, will tell you you're wrong. Some KAC stuff is great,but most of it is not a true value. I have all kinds of stuff that's not the best of the best, but I bought it because I'm American and I wanted it....good enough.

Question - (and understand I am of the opinion that ALL .308 ARs are prone to be fussy) when you say ' But people who have never used them in poor conditions, like we have, will tell you you're wrong. - what other .308 systems have you been allowed to field in large numbers? We're they really any better?

I have had 2 GAPs, a DPMS and a KAC. I don't field them, but I shoot them in all kinds of weather in the middle of the woods and I'm not exactly a neat freak. Cold weather and a dirty BCG / chamber seems to be the absolute worst. They all are pretty accurate (some more than others) all have been sensitive about maintenance, lube viscosity, mags, and lord help you if you push a primer and it winds up in your trigger mechanism. Round about way to saying - they have ALL taken a dump on me. However, I just can not help but think that if any were fielded, the conditions of the field would cripple most any sample routinely.

Also for those that are keeping score - my KAC has a gitchy and fairly heavy trigger, as well as the worst upper to lower fit that I have seen on the 20+ gas guns that I have or have had. That said, it has been the least fussy about mags, shot from positions other than prone, and it shoots well.

IMHO the best KAC is a gently used one at a great price. I don't see myself ever paying full boat for one.

 

[Delta4-3]

^^^^^^^^^Mike sir,
The only Semi .308's I used in combat were variations of the M14 with various optics and the M110.
I have put all of the .308's mentioned here, and others, through the ringer during either R&D and/or procurement testing though.
After being a dealer, I don't care for the way DPMS does its dealers, but it is surprising how they stack up against the higher end ones.
Just to clarify, the SR15 and SR25 are worlds apart in my experience. But the main issues Ive seen with the KAC .308's are extractor breakage, trigger issues, and lack of accuracy on some. Are they terrible? no. I just personally feel like there are options that are a better value, in respect to what I look for. I am an expert by no means though, and my opinion is not any higher than anyone else's in this thread.

To answer your original question, I think better determines what the goal you are trying to achieve is. I just never felt the KAC outshined any other platform, especially when considering the premium. For any of the applications I would use a semi auto, precision .308 for (Baghdad is a good example, medium engagement ranges, with a lot of targets) , I would take an LMT, GAP, possibly JP, or others. I think there are a lot of equals in this field when you factor in reliability and accuracy.

When I really want something to perform a task the way I want it to, I build it myself. And that could be anything from assembling parts to achieve the goal, or building most of the rifle including machining the receiver(s), turning a barrel, making a gas block and making or modifying a tube, making my own buffer to match my gas volume and duration, etc.

I know it doesn't fully answer the question, but I don't think there is just one "best" unless you have a very exacting set of parameters.

 

[Delta4-3]

Price and Value are not synonymouse. The things that I might place a value on may hold no value to others. Many things can drive the value bus. The convesation starts to get muddy when you start to factor in diminished returns. Or the conversation can easily go south when you try and factor in the price of pride of ownership. But shooters, especially real shooters, tend to place more value on results than the item its self. And this is where the price and the consideration of diminished returns comes into play. I guess the point is that value is all over the map, and so it will be likely impossible for everyone to agree on that topic.

Well said Shane.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Expound on DPMS vs high end offerings

^^^^^^^^^Mike sir,
The only Semi .308's I used in combat were variations of the M14 with various optics and the M110.
I have put all of the .308's mentioned here, and others, through the ringer during either R&D and/or procurement testing though.
After being a dealer, I don't care for the way DPMS does its dealers, but it is surprising how they stack up against the higher end ones.
Just to clarify, the SR15 and SR25 are worlds apart in my experience. But the main issues Ive seen with the KAC .308's are extractor breakage, trigger issues, and lack of accuracy on some. Are they terrible? no. I just personally feel like there are options that are a better value, in respect to what I look for. I am an expert by no means though, and my opinion is not any higher than anyone else's in this thread.

To answer your original question, I think better determines what the goal you are trying to achieve is. I just never felt the KAC outshined any other platform, especially when considering the premium. For any of the applications I would use a semi auto, precision .308 for (Baghdad is a good example, medium engagement ranges, with a lot of targets) , I would take an LMT, GAP, possibly JP, or others. I think there are a lot of equals in this field when you factor in reliability and accuracy.

When I really want something to perform a task the way I want it to, I build it myself. And that could be anything from assembling parts to achieve the goal, or building most of the rifle including machining the receiver(s), turning a barrel, making a gas block and making or modifying a tube, making my own buffer to match my gas volume and duration, etc.

I know it doesn't fully answer the question, but I don't think there is just one "best" unless you have a very exacting set of parameters.

Delta 4-3,

Tell us more about how DPMS stacks up against higher priced offerings. As an ex dealer & trigger puller, u have a unique insight that counts far more than opinion of most people on here.

 

[hlee]

Delta 4-3,

Tell us more about how DPMS stacks up against higher priced offerings. As an ex dealer & trigger puller, u have a unique insight that counts far more than opinion of most people on here.

Check out the results of Elfster's 6 group, 5 round, 100 yard shootouts- at least for an accuracy comparison...

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Check out the results of Elfster's 6 group, 5 round, 100 yard shootouts- at least for an accuracy comparison...

I wouldn't take the results of different shooters as a standard for accuracy of a platform. Some people are great behind a trigger, some are ok, and some people just plain suck. Results of different rifles with different shooters say nothing.

 

[Shooter0311]

How did the op's thread get turned into a dpms thread?

 

[Cobracutter]

Question - (and understand I am of the opinion that ALL .308 ARs are prone to be fussy) when you say ' But people who have never used them in poor conditions, like we have, will tell you you're wrong. - what other .308 systems have you been allowed to field in large numbers? We're they really any better?

I have had 2 GAPs, a DPMS and a KAC. I don't field them, but I shoot them in all kinds of weather in the middle of the woods and I'm not exactly a neat freak. Cold weather and a dirty BCG / chamber seems to be the absolute worst. They all are pretty accurate (some more than others) all have been sensitive about maintenance, lube viscosity, mags, and lord help you if you push a primer and it winds up in your trigger mechanism. Round about way to saying - they have ALL taken a dump on me. However, I just can not help but think that if any were fielded, the conditions of the field would cripple most any sample routinely.

Also for those that are keeping score - my KAC has a gitchy and fairly heavy trigger, as well as the worst upper to lower fit that I have seen on the 20+ gas guns that I have or have had. That said, it has been the least fussy about mags, shot from positions other than prone, and it shoots well.

IMHO the best KAC is a gently used one at a great price. I don't see myself ever paying full boat for one.

Mike, do you have an older SR-25 with the Older trigger? Heres a piece of triva:

The old Sr-25/Mk11 triggers were pretty bad. They were unreliable (known to break) and would go down. Guys who were issued them (almost socom exlusivley back then) would replace the KAC with the Origional Gieselle Hi Speed trigger. That reputation really started with those guys who fielded them early (along with shooters who also competed highpower and AMU shooters) and took off.

Since then , KAC has redesigned their 2 stage, and it is EVERY bit as good as any geiselle I have ever shot or own. They probally arent worth the cost premium over a Hi Speed, but they are just as good. I have been really impressed by the new triggers on my mod 1s.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

Circa 2010 / 2011 gun