Keeping the reticle on target

S

Scratchthejeepguy

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Mar 27, 2013
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#1
How do you guys do it? What I've been doing is getting the reticle on target, then as I breathe... I move the reticle to as close as I can to target, but just off it, and as I exhale, it slowly moves on top of the target and right as it does, I press the trigger.

Is this the best way or can you guys hold it on target without it moving at all?

BTW... I'm using a pack up front and a sandbag under the rear stock, .308 R700, XLR, 6-24x50 FFP, Jewell, with handloads and am getting around .5 MOA at 100 yards.
 
#2
Keeping the reticle on target

First, if you're shooting .5 MOA with that technique you need to be teaching me, not asking me. Second, don't muscle the rifle to the target and don't break the shot without stopping your breathing. And yes, the reticle will move vertically as you breathe.
 
#3
Graham said:
First, if you're shooting .5 MOA with that technique you need to be teaching me, not asking me. Second, don't muscle the rifle to the target and don't break the shot without stopping your breathing. And yes, the reticle will move vertically as you breathe.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the compliment.... I think that was a compliment.... And I'm not sure what you mean by "muscle the rifle to the target"

I don't stop my breathing, but rather on slow exhale, I try to break the shot near the middle of the exhale. I move the reticle, Lower than the target, knowing that when I exhale, the reticle will slowly move upwards. (Maybe that's what you mean by "muscling the rifle")
I keep a little pressure on the trigger as it moves up, then apply the rest of the pressure right as the reticle covers the target. My trigger is set to around 14 oz. I have a pistol grip, and I try to keep the same, firm, complete, grip on it... but loose enough that my pulse doesn't cause any movement, and that I'm relaxed with it, so my muscles don't start to shake. I also try to be aware of the same pressure on the grip every time.

So are you saying my method of shooting is a bad way to shoot? It sounds like you think I'm getting good results, so should I keep using this method, or should I change now while I'm still new at it. I hope I explained it good enough, but I'm still very new to the precision shooting game and want to learn the right way as soon as I can.

Can you explain how you shoot?
 
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#4
Keeping the reticle on target

You are getting good results with a bad method and a very light trigger.

I am not going to be able to show you how to do it by describing it in a post. There are are a number of good threads on this topic, one of them has links to demonstrations by Jacob and Frank on Youtube.

Then, if you have more questions have a look at the Rifles Only Fundamentals video, Disk One.
 
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#5
It shouldn't be moving that much, and timing the shot like that is not ideal. If you jack the magnification up, you will see that you cannot hold the rifle perfectly still, but accepting a wobble and timing the shot are two different things. Not sure what's wrong with your position, but something is, and it can be corrected. When you do, I'll bet you get more consistent results. Timing the shot is akin to muscling the rifle - a violation of a good NPA.
 
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#6
damoncali said:
It shouldn't be moving that much, and timing the shot like that is not idea. If you jack the magnification up, you will see that you cannot hold the rifle perfectly still, but accepting a wobble and timing the shot are two different things. Not sure what's wrong with your position, but something is, and it can be corrected. When you do, I'll bet you get more consistent results. Timing the shot is akin to muscling the rifle - a violation of a good NPA.
Click to expand...

^^This!

JeepGuy, What is ment by muscling the gun is that you are trying to time a shot when you crosshair is on point, meaning your trying to move the crosshair at the last minute. What should be don't....IMO is what we call "respiratory pause" meaning after you inhale, you exhale about half way and then stop and hold the breath steadying the crosshair.

a little hard to describe in writing. :)
 
#7
Using a pack is a bad idea... in 1985 when the USMC Sniper rifle didn't have the correct front sling swivel, you used a pack. It's now 2013, and we have this thing called a bipod, it's metal, attached to your rifle. It keeps it from settling like a pack does. It's much more stable. Packs are a field expedient method when no other option applies.

More than likely you are doing a variety of things wrong (clearly) but there are a lot of good bad shooters out there who adapt to that. So you can attempt to do things right or you can continue to adapt to less than ideal methods. Which will yield some success as long as you don't fall outside your adapted comfort zone.

You have a Fundamentals of Marksmanship Problem, your NPA is the first problem, a bit of breathing as you are focused on it, and then you have a Trigger Control issue pulling the sights off the target and I would bet $100 a Follow through issue too. The light trigger is masking some of it, but certainly if you had a competent instructor watch you, all that would become clear. With a bipod and rear bag the rifle should not be influenced by your actions as the shooter.

For Natural Point of Aim, point the rifle to the target and then line up behind the rifle. Once in place, place the crosshairs on the target and close your eyes. Go through several breathing cycles with your eyes closed then open them. If your reticle has drifted off the target, you have to move the rifle and your body as one unit, not muscling it with your shoulder or arms. repeat until the reticle stays where you left it.

Trigger Control is pressing the trigger straight to the rear without disturbing the lay of the sights. That is usually done by using proper body mechanics of the hand, or a 90 degree trigger finger with the trigger shoe in the pad of the finger. The second knuckle at a 90 degree angle to the bore.

Follow through, both mechanically and mentally. Hold the trigger to the rear until the recoil pulse is over, and keep the reticle on target during the shot. You should see the results of your shot through the scope, the zen moment is seeing the bullet make a hole at 100 yards.

Don't focus on your breathing, just break at the bottom of your natural respiratory pause, do not hold it. Just continue to breath as normal. If you are running and out of breath, you can focus on your breathing to control it in order to break at the bottom, otherwise just breath normal. We breath naturally, there is no reason to change it, you don't have to explain it in your head to your body it knows better than you do.
 
#8
I found that dry firing at home helped me out a ton. Setup on the floor of your house and focus on something in the back yard or up on the hill side, and practice your breathing and dry firing.
 
#9
Keeping the reticle on target

Quinc said:
I found that dry firing at home helped me out a ton. Setup on the floor of your house and focus on something in the back yard or up on the hill side, and practice your breathing and dry firing.
Click to expand...
But you've got to do it right to start with, otherwise you are practicing bad habits.
 
#11
#12
Graham said:
I wouldn't bother with that one until you know enough to separate fact from fiction. It's a lot of money to spend to get a Larue/Horus sales pitch instead of a solid instructional grounding. Spend the high price tag on some Horus or Larue stuff instead.
Click to expand...

he's right, I bootlegged it over the weekend and there were so many things wrong with it that it's ridiculous! I swear to god if I hear the words "Horus reticle" one more time i'm gonna flip. lol
 
#13
Thanks guys. I have an Atlas bipod, but I've heard that shooting off a front sand bag, rest or pack is the most ideal rest for the front, and I was developing my load so that's what I used. I now have a good load...(I think) of 44.0gr of Varget and 165 A-Max's so now I'll start using the bipod. I know about preloading it and understand the theory of it too.

I'll try all of your tips everyone, and special thanks to lowlight for taking the time to explain a little about breaking at the bottom of my normal breathing. Along with all your other tips.

I have some work to do.

I'd love to watch some videos on this stuff. Where do I get the "rifles only fundamentals" video series? Is that the Jacob Bynum video? Anyone have a copy they want to rent me?
 
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#17
Quinc said:
Don't mean to hyjack the thread, but what didn't you like about it?
Click to expand...

There was a lot, more than I can think of right now. I met a guy at the range on Friday and during our conversation the subject of this video (Magpul art of the precision rifle) came up. I was basically told that it was a waste and not to bother with my time. Well, for shits and grins I decided that night to see if I could find a bootlegged copy online...which I did. Since it was free I watched it over the weekend. The guy was right, it's nothing fancy and i'm glad I didn't spend the $50 to buy it. As Graham said, it is nothing but an infomercial about Horus reticles and La Rue tactical. I especially got a laugh out of the fact they were trying to argue that a .308 is an effective bullet out to a mile.

The guy teaching the courses seemed to know his stuff but they didn't even cover half of the fundamentals. They covered NPA briefly and that was it.

Same guy referred me to a Rifles Only dvd that is supossedly better. I have yet to watch any of the Rifles Only videos but from what I've heard and Read they are top notch.
 
#18
Keeping the reticle on target

Allow me to reiterate a prevailing opinion here on this Site:

Todd Hodnett used to be Cowboy Doc, a civilian SASS shooter. He was, and is, is a good shot and a friendly, gregarious fellow.

He competed in a minor sniper match back in the day, won, and next thing you know he was being represented as a 'sniper' champion. Well, I suppose it wasn't a completely untruthful claim, but it was misleading because there was no such thing as a sniper championship.

He also went once to Rifles Only and took a class from Jacob. Then he got a job with Horus. Now he sells Horus to the military, and supports the sales with instruction for them on how to use Horus reticles.

Todd teaches some of Jacob's method on the Magpul video. My issue with him doing that, among many other things wrong with that video, is that he teaches Jacob's method incorrectly.

When it was ready for release, that video was so fucked-up that Magpul called-in Caylen to unfuck it: Caylen was a sniper. He was also an instructor at the Marine scout sniper school. He doesn't talk about it much, but he's an experienced and decorated combat veteran who was wounded while selflessly rescuing fellow Marines from effective enemy fire. Caylen is not a salesman. He is an experienced military instructor. He's the real thing. If you ever get a chance to take a course from Caylen you won't be disappointed.
 
#19
For $10 a month you can join the SH Online Training Lessons which has the Fundamental Parts of the Day One DVD in it... a lot less money than buying the complete DVDs from anyone.

If you want the videos off line and want to get the DVD you can get a discount code in the Online Training Section for the SH DVD.

Here are some teasers for the Online Training found on YouTube

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/nqxNBl4FLDA?list=UUwHsnyWOaQNtrGjJKsTgegg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/z6zGwyiMxso" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/MY8rwJYX8pg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

These are just an example of the lessons found in the Online Training Section, there is no past lesson cost, it's $10 a month with access to everything. We add new videos each month.
 
#21
When I shot small bore in college, breathing was taught as Inhale, Exhale, Inhale, 1/2 exhale - Hold, Shoot, breath again.

I saw a UK Discovery where they looked at the mechanics of Olympic rifle shooters. They put an IR laser on the rifle and looked the movement of the laser spot on the target. They noticed that they saw the dot move up and down with heartbeat, but stop just before the shot was fired. So they put an EKG on the shooters and found they were actually pausing their heartbeat as they fired the shot. Pretty hard core. :)
 
#22
After you ran 500 yards or more, where is 1/2 way in your breathing cycle ?

Breathing has been adjusted from what was taught in the past, to breaking at the bottom of the natural respiratory pause as no matter way, we all have a pause and it is in the same place regardless if you are relaxed or breathing heavy. Also, it's noted that under stress, nobody knows how long they are actually holding their breath for, and they will hold it for extended periods of time, causing even more problems. We have no concept of time, and we are not very good multi-tasker, so the idea you can concrete on your fundamentals and your breath control has been debunked.

We are not swimming underwater, there is no reason to hold your breath at all... period, not even for 3 to 5 seconds, 3 to 5 quickly turns into 15 to 30.
 
#23
This was a very informative thread on several points. I shot today and found myself holding my breath, so a lot of this made perfect sense. The tid bit about the Magpul video was pretty interesting too, I borrowed the set from a friend and watched part of the first disk and it did seem a little infomercial-ish. Lowlight, thanks for the reminder about the on line training, I will be signing up ASAP.still need to find the right range/club here in Connecticut, bit that's a whole other problem. Thanks for all the good info.
 
#26
Graham said:
When it was ready for release, that video was so fucked-up that Magpul called-in Caylen to unfuck it: Caylen was a sniper. He was also an instructor at the Marine scout sniper school. He doesn't talk about it much, but he's an experienced and decorated combat veteran who was wounded while selflessly rescuing fellow Marines from effective enemy fire. Caylen is not a salesman. He is an experienced military instructor. He's the real thing. If you ever get a chance to take a course from Caylen you won't be disappointed.
Click to expand...

+100 on this. As an instructor, Caylen is great. His parts of the Magpul set are the only parts that are really worth watching IMHO. Even though I run a Horus reticle and really like it, the sales pitch on the videos is a bit much.
 
#27
I get very little movement in the reticle. I use a bi-pod and then my hand for the rear rest. I practice a lot with this technique and it works very well. The only thing holding me back from long range excellence is reading the wind. So just keep practicing and you will get it. I also second the recommendations from Frank and his awesome videos available for $10/month. I find Frank's recommendations and teachings to be spot on and very helpful.

Good luck and keep shooting!
 
#28
Graham said:
I guarantee you that Olympic Biathlon shooters are not stopping their heart to fire a shot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

These were Olympic small bore shooters.

But you might be surprised. It was not a long pause, you could only see it if you looked at the EKG trace, where there was a bit more space between the two heartbeats around the shot.
 
#29
Lowlight said:
After you ran 500 yards or more, where is 1/2 way in your breathing cycle ?

Breathing has been adjusted from what was taught in the past, to breaking at the bottom of the natural respiratory pause as no matter way, we all have a pause and it is in the same place regardless if you are relaxed or breathing heavy. Also, it's noted that under stress, nobody knows how long they are actually holding their breath for, and they will hold it for extended periods of time, causing even more problems. We have no concept of time, and we are not very good multi-tasker, so the idea you can concrete on your fundamentals and your breath control has been debunked.

We are not swimming underwater, there is no reason to hold your breath at all... period, not even for 3 to 5 seconds, 3 to 5 quickly turns into 15 to 30.
Click to expand...

Interesting.

And yes, it was a LONG time ago that I shot small bore on the rifle team in college. :)
 
#30
Lowlight said:
After you ran 500 yards or more, where is 1/2 way in your breathing cycle ?

Breathing has been adjusted from what was taught in the past, to breaking at the bottom of the natural respiratory pause as no matter way, we all have a pause and it is in the same place regardless if you are relaxed or breathing heavy. Also, it's noted that under stress, nobody knows how long they are actually holding their breath for, and they will hold it for extended periods of time, causing even more problems. We have no concept of time, and we are not very good multi-tasker, so the idea you can concrete on your fundamentals and your breath control has been debunked.

We are not swimming underwater, there is no reason to hold your breath at all... period, not even for 3 to 5 seconds, 3 to 5 quickly turns into 15 to 30.
Click to expand...

As a Marine infantryman in the early 90's I was taught the 'hold your breath on exhale' method. The bottom of the breath cycle method makes much more sense so I'll be adjusting my practice. Hard to believe I missed it after all this time. Might have to look into the online video series..

So are there any active duty Marines that would care to advise if this is the current method of teaching infantry marksmanship or if they are still teaching the hold your breath method?
 
#31
axshon said:
As a Marine infantryman in the early 90's I was taught the 'hold your breath on exhale' method. The bottom of the breath cycle method makes much more sense so I'll be adjusting my practice. Hard to believe I missed it after all this time. Might have to look into the online video series..

So are there any active duty Marines that would care to advise if this is the current method of teaching infantry marksmanship or if they are still teaching the hold your breath method?
Click to expand...

I joined last night and watched a few while hunting today, good stuff.
 
#32
axshon said:
As a Marine infantryman in the early 90's I was taught the 'hold your breath on exhale' method. The bottom of the breath cycle method makes much more sense so I'll be adjusting my practice. Hard to believe I missed it after all this time. Might have to look into the online video series..

So are there any active duty Marines that would care to advise if this is the current method of teaching infantry marksmanship or if they are still teaching the hold your breath method?
Click to expand...
Your coach/PMI threw you off by pushing BRASS-F a bit too literal, but we were teaching the natural respiratory pause method throughout the 90's as well.
 
#33
Redmanss said:
Your coach/PMI threw you off by pushing BRASS-F a bit too literal, but we were teaching the natural respiratory pause method throughout the 90's as well.
Click to expand...

That's... just.. I don't even know what to say. I feel so misled...

Seriously though, thanks for the note. It could also be that I was young and dumb and not a very good listener!

Semper Fi
 
#35
Lowlight said:
...the zen moment is seeing the bullet make a hole at 100 yards.
Click to expand...

Lowlight - Thanks to you, now every single time I pull the trigger, I have this saying floating through my head. Not a bad thing to have in there. I've seen it a few times, now I'm just on a mission to see it more and more with less effort. ;-)
 
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