Kestrel model help

[Genius.]

I'm in the market for a Kestrel, I know the 4500 is the cats ass, but is it truly needed?

For one, I'm all about buying once and crying once, I have learned my lesson in that regard. On the same note, I don't like spending money on things that I don't need.

I do know I don't need the Bluetooth option, nor do I need the night vision option, I'm not planning to shoot at night.

So is the 4000 or 4500 model worth buying, or could I save a few bucks and go with a lesser model, and if so, what model?

 

[07zx6r]

Re: Kestrel model help

very curious also..looking forward to some experienced answers.

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Re: Kestrel model help

Hmm, I would say depends on what you want to do with it...

If you want to run the Horus software on it - you have to get the much more expensive 4500 version (with or w/o bluetooth). If you don't care about Density Altitude (DA), you don't need the 4000 or up models. If you want DA calculated, you need at least the 4000. Here is a good page with does a comparison at the manufacturers homepage:

http://www.nkhome.com/kestrel/index.php

PS. On the bluetooth - its only really useful if you want to do the following:

1. communicate with a non Apple device (android, PC etc) - you can display or transfer data from the Kestrel to other devices
2. have the Horus version and want to upload the Horus gunlist and Ballists info
3. Don't want to use the slightly cheaper wired interface to do the above

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Re: Kestrel model help

I think most general consensus is that if your using it to do ballistic calculations, the DA is very nice to have, so most folks go with the 4000 or better. If your going to do all your calculations manually or your ballistics solution doesn't use DA, you would just need Altitude, Baro and Temp which the least expensive version that has all of these is the 2500.

 

[pmy]

Re: Kestrel model help

I was looking at them myself the other day, and it looked like the only major function that the 4500 provided over the 4000 was determining wind direction.

I can tell that from tossing some grass in the air, right? It's only wind direction where you're standing anyway, not between you and the target.

Is there anything else the 4500 does that the 4000 doesn't that I might have missed?

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Re: Kestrel model help

the 4500 has all of the wind direction features - like crosswind calculation etc... Also the digital compass which is used for calculating the wind direction.

So, if you are using the clockface style wind direction or relative angle (like 90 degrees), you can get by without it - especially if your not using it with a hand held ballistics calculator that wants wind direction in compass style (FTE Ballistics can use angle from user like 90 degree etc).

So there aren't a lot of extra features in the 4500 over the 4000.

Also, not that it matters a whole lot, but Kestrel does annoyingly only offer certain colors with certain features - for example the tan 4000 is only available with NV which really isn't a costly option (I think like $10 or something) but it kind of annoying...

 

[07zx6r]

Re: Kestrel model help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pmy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there anything else the 4500 does that the 4000 doesn't that I might have missed?</div></div>

I am pretty sure that the 4500 has a sleep function that helps preserve the battery life.

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Re: Kestrel model help

Kestrel 4500 Features
•Waterproof and floats
•Time and date
•Easy- to-read backlit display
•Data Logger (automatic and manual)
•Customizable data storage - 2900 data points
•Minimum, Maximum and Average values
•Multi-Function 3-line display
•Humidity sensor can be recalibrated in the field with our Relative Humidity Calibration Kit.
•Exterior temperature, humidity, and pressure sensors for fast and accurate readings
•Customize screens to display user-selected measurements
•Graph and recall trends
•User-replaceable impeller
•Flip-top impeller cover allows use of other functions while protecting the impeller
•Data charting
•Upload to a computer (with optional interface)
•Five languages (English, French, Spanish, German, and Italian)
•US Patent Nos. 5,783,753 and 5,939,645 and 6,257,074
•5-year warranty
•Assembled in the USA


Kestrel 4000 Features
•Waterproof and floats
•Easy to read, backlit display
•Time and date
•Exterior temperature, humidity, and pressure sensors for fast and accurate readings
•Humidity sensor can be recalibrated in the field with our Relative Humidity Calibration Kit.
•Minimum, maximum, and average values
•Automatically store measurements, even when the unit is turned off
•Manually store measurements with the press of a button
•Customizable data storage - 4000 data points
•Graph and recall trends
•Customize screens to display user-selected measurements
•Data charting
•Data upload (with optional interface)
•Five languages (English, French, Spanish, German, and Italian)
•User-replaceable impeller
•Flip-top impeller cover allows use of other functions while protecting the impeller
•US Patent Nos. 5,783,753 and 5,939,645 and 6,257,074
•All instruments and accessories are completely assembled in the USA
•5-year warranty

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Re: Kestrel model help

Thats just a copy past from the namufacturers page, I don't know about the sleep function I will have to read my manual - though I think your right, I just don't know if its specific to the model or sofware version...

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Re: Kestrel model help

ahh found it

Its called Auto Shutdown. On models 4000 and up, you can select how long before it autmatically shuts down 15, 60 or never (after no keypresses), where the models under 4000 are statically set to shutdown after no keypresses for 45 min.

http://www.nkhome.com/kestrel/kestrel-4000/features.php

 

[roggom]

Re: Kestrel model help

I dont use horus or any pda, just my 2500 and a FDAC. I use the pressure altitude and the graph to calculate DA, then slide the card. You can also use the info in JBM or other programs.

Since I shoot at various altitudes and temps from 32 to 100, DA is very important at long range.

Here is a link to manual DA.

http://www.arcanamavens.com/LBSFiles/Shooting/Downloads/ManualDA/

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Re: Kestrel model help

roggom -- do you think it would be faster to get DA from the Kestrel and then use the FDAC? Essentially, what pros/cons do you see calculating the DA vs having it provided by your Kestrel - is it just a price thing or are there other reasons?

 

[Genius.]

Re: Kestrel model help

So short of the 4000 and 4500 model being able to figure out DA I could get by with a lesser model?

Thanks for the help guys.

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Re: Kestrel model help

I think thats the biggest difference, though there are some other differences, it just really depends on what all you want to do with it. Best bet would be to go through the steps you need for calculating your firing solution, and write down what all you need. Once you get that list, check to see which Kestrel model supplies that, and there is your minimum device. Read the other features on up, and see if any float your boat, or make life easier.

 

[Bugaboo]

Re: Kestrel model help

I was in the same situation a year ago. I was leaning towards the 4000 model, but at a competition several guys told me to cough up the extra money and get the 4500 with Horus - "You will not regret it".

I followed the advice and I am very happy. I shoot so-called "tactical matches" and sometimes I have to get firing solution for up-to 10 targets in a short time. The Kestrel can do 5 targets at the same time and I can use hold-over and hold-under method to engage all 10 targets. I found the combination very helpful learning-tool.

Other guys have the 4000 model and I see them do the same thing with lot more effort, especially when the time is short. As a beginner, I can use the time to prepare better for the stage. Also I found out the Kestrel-Horus combo provides me a good starting position to learn to adjust for wind on the way to the target. In other words: I have a basic solution for minimal and maximal wind value on the firing line and I can focus on what the wind does along the way. At matches the people are not always willing to share information, they don't want to help the competition.

Simply: when I just reviewed the characteristics of the instruments, I didn't realize the full potential of the thing. It turns cold bore shots into cold bore hits.

 

[Genius.]

Re: Kestrel model help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HeroFish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think thats the biggest difference, though there are some other differences, it just really depends on what all you want to do with it. Best bet would be to go through the steps you need for calculating your firing solution, and write down what all you need. Once you get that list, check to see which Kestrel model supplies that, and there is your minimum device. Read the other features on up, and see if any float your boat, or make life easier. </div></div>
Fewq
I'm just getting into long range shooting and beginning to stretch my legs so I'm not 100% sure what I will be needing. One thing I know for sure is I won't be shooting past 800.

 

[roggom]

Re: Kestrel model help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HeroFish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">roggom -- do you think it would be faster to get DA from the Kestrel and then use the FDAC? Essentially, what pros/cons do you see calculating the DA vs having it provided by your Kestrel - is it just a price thing or are there other reasons? </div></div>

Hero, for me, the fdac provides my firing solution, very simple and no batteries. If I change calibers I can get more cards. I use it with a 308W and 178's. So the 2500 works for me. Living in CO , you know that you can shoot in the morning and the temps can be in the 60's, by noon it can hit 100. So the 2500 gives me temp, pressure, and pressure altitude and wind speed. I dont need cross wind, as I feel this is basic marksmanship to know wind values.

I just like to keep it simple, notebook, pen, my kestral 2500 and FDAC. For other solutions, I use G7 then go to the field and validate.

Many guys go out and tote around a pack full of "buy now cry now" goodies, but do not have the basics of wind calls, posture, ranging etc. These are usually the ones holding up your competition stages.

If myself or anyone is really going to shoot comps or protect their six, then the 4500NV/Atrag would be a no brainer.

 

[Swift]

Re: Kestrel model help

If you need DA and wind direction, you need the 4500. If you need DA, you only need the 4000. If you want basic measurements like speed, temp, altitude, etc you can get away with one of their more wallet friendly models. Personally, I like density altitude so I use a 4000 but it's only to cut out a few steps.

 

[Genius.]

Re: Kestrel model help

Thanks for the help.

Now will a good ballistics program on my phone be able to figure out the DA for me if I plug all the numbers from my Kestrel into it?

 

[dbateman]

Re: Kestrel model help

Ok so not to long ago I was in the same boat as you what I decided I would do is get the 4500NV, now I only really want the DA and wind speed but I thought that it isn't much more than the 4000 and I will most likely learn to use the other functions.

 

[evilcoon]

Re: Kestrel model help

Any word on the iphone app Kestrel combo?

 

[Genius.]

Re: Kestrel model help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evilcoon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any word on the iphone app Kestrel combo? </div></div>

Now that would be a model I could use

 

[Autark]

Re: Kestrel model help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: biggenius29</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evilcoon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any word on the iphone app Kestrel combo? </div></div>

Now that would be a model I could use </div></div>

Same here, I'm sure a lot of people would jump on that. Apple is kind of fickle, though.

 

[Swift]

Re: Kestrel model help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evilcoon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any word on the iphone app Kestrel combo? </div></div>

You would be better off buying a Kestrel 1000 for $75. iphones are just phones, not a fix-all or a miraculous shapeshifter, and will never replace dedicated hardware or software.

Yall need to lower the expectations of your precious iphones; it's maddening how many things people are trying to port over to their mobile devices instead of using proper, proven, dedicated gear.
Remember, soldiers were using bolt guns with deadly accuracy when Steve Jobs was a crust on his daddy's boxers; too many guys get a false sense of security because they think their phone has all the answers and have to gobble up a few slices of humble pie once they get on the firing line.

If anything, we should be talking about moving forward, i.e DARPA's doppler system or new Kestrel models because once it's dedicated hardware, porting it to the iphone is merely an unnecessary step backwards for the sake of convenience to accommodate the sofa sniper at home.

 

[dbateman]

Re: Kestrel model help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THEBEARRRRRRJEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evilcoon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any word on the iphone app Kestrel combo? </div></div>

You would be better off buying a Kestrel 1000 for $75. iphones are just phones, not a fix-all or a miraculous shapeshifter, and will never replace dedicated hardware or software.

Yall need to lower the expectations of your precious iphones; it's maddening how many things people are trying to port over to their mobile devices instead of using proper, proven, dedicated gear.
Remember, soldiers were using bolt guns with deadly accuracy when Steve Jobs was a crust on his daddy's boxers; too many guys get a false sense of security because they think their phone has all the answers and have to gobble up a few slices of humble pie once they get on the firing line.

If anything, we should be talking about moving forward, i.e DARPA's doppler system or new Kestrel models because once it's dedicated hardware, porting it to the iphone is merely an unnecessary step backwards for the sake of convenience to accommodate the sofa sniper at home. </div></div>



I couldn't agree more with what you said.

Just buying a kestral is a pretty big step up for me I don't even have a ballistics program or a pda, I still use my data books and thats really all I need.

Ballistic programs are good but I think a lot of people are missing out on learning to gather data at different enviromentals.

Having said that I will look at getting some kind of program in the future.

As far as iphones go I have one and hate it as soon as I brake it I'm going back to HTC.

 

[Boydo]

Re: Kestrel model help

im glad this thread popped up. had similar questions. i too dont know which kestrel to get

 

[pawater]

Re: Kestrel model help

+1 on that

 

[CleanMoostang]

Re: Kestrel model help

I just picked up a Kestrel 4000 but I guess its an older one, has NK stamped at the bottom instead of Kestrel, is it up to par?

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Re: Kestrel model help

OK, so first off, I will say that some of this is from research, as I don't own nor use all these methods. There also may be errors, but what I have tried to do is identify the cheapest Kestrel unit that has everything needed to perform the type of calculations in the scenario. Of course there can be more detail like MV added, but I am just trying to cover the basics. Feel free to correct where you see errors if you use a particular method.

Also, as in most everything else here, this really really depends on what type of shooting you will be doing. If your always shooting at the same range at known distance, your needs will be very different than someone shooting under time pressure at a competition where there targets are at unknown distances.

1. Manual Method to use DA with FDAC cards for your load (no humidity)

Requirements: Altitude (GPS or phone), Temperature + Wind (Kestrel 2000 $179), FDAC ($40), Range + Angle

Process: Obtain variables. Use chart on FDAC to calculate DA. Slide card to correct DA for ammunition, use dope based on range and angle to calcuate sight adjustments or hold offs

Pros: Less Expensive, Fast
Cons: Less precise input provide less accurate solutions (mostly important for longer distances), covers only some ammunition types



2. Dope pages plus Kestrel (no humidity)

Requirements: Altitude (GPS or phone), Temperature + Wind (Kestrel 2000 $179), Range + Angle, Printed dope pages

Process: Obtain Variables. Preprint Range Cards with a range of inputs that will cover your location. Reference the correct variables on those range cards for your ammunition to obtain a firing solution.

Pros: Less Expensive
Cons: Error Prone, Slow


3. Kestrel plus ballistics app (no humidity)

Requirements: Altitude (GPS or phone), Temperature and Pressure (Kestrel 2000 $179), app (?) [FTE example]

Process: Obtain Variables. Input the temperature, altitude, pressure and angle then select your load to get firing solution.

Pros: Moderately Expensive, Fairly accurate
Cons: Doesn't include humidity in DA calculation, Error prone, somewhat slow


4. Kestrel plus ballistics app with humidity

Essentially same as above, but using more expensive Kestrel (3000 $199) which provides Relative Humidity and Altitude, which is a more accurate DA calculation.


5. Kestrel with Horus Software

Requirements: Kestrel with Horus ($619) + Angle + Range

Process: Select load in Kestrel using current env data. Select firing soltuion based on range/angle

Pros: Fast and Accurate, less error prone
Cons: More costly

6. Kestrel with PDA with FFS

Seems the most expensive, but arguably the most accurate?
Kestrel 4500($440) + PDA ($800?) + FFS software ($350) + terrapin LRF ($1900)

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Re: Kestrel model help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CleanMoostang</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just picked up a Kestrel 4000 but I guess its an older one, has NK stamped at the bottom instead of Kestrel, is it up to par? </div></div>

Put in the serial # at https://www.nkportal.com/ra/snlookuppub.php

There is a 5 year warranty from date of manufacture. If its still in warranty, I would suggest sending it in for a software update, or at least calling them to see about updating the software to the current version.

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Re: Kestrel model help

Also - if you think your main requirements are:

1. less than 1400 yards
2. unknown distances
3. varying field conditions

You may want to consider the G7 BR2 ($1500) vs. Kestrel Horus ($700) + Leica 1600 ($700). The G7 gets most of what the Kestrel has (no humidity or wind) in one device.

If your shooting longer distances, I suggest using best of breed devices separately.

 

[Papagallos]

Re: Kestrel model help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HeroFish</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CleanMoostang</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just picked up a Kestrel 4000 but I guess its an older one, has NK stamped at the bottom instead of Kestrel, is it up to par? </div></div>

Put in the serial # at https://www.nkportal.com/ra/snlookuppub.php

There is a 5 year warranty from date of manufacture. If its still in warranty, I would suggest sending it in for a software update, or at least calling them to see about updating the software to the current version. </div></div>

I just bought one off a SH member. The Kestrel 4000 was manufactured on 09/2010 and the warranty ends on 09/2015. Would I need to update the software?

 

[Bugaboo]

Re: Kestrel model help

I've been in the same position and went through pretty much the same options. In the end I went for the option 5 - Kestrel with Horus + Range and Angle (Leica 1600)

I decided to go for Option 5 because I've seen the Kestrels with and without the Horus at matches and when you're shooting up to 1000m, it is the best solution. For me it is a learning tool - a Coach I can put into my pocket. It doesn't solve everything, but I have solid base from which to learn. I've spent more money on the devices, but I believe I am using my ammunition more efficiently to learn.

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Re: Kestrel model help

Ok - about older version running older software etc. The best thing to do is call the manufacturer at 610-447-1555. Hit the option for tech support then talk to Rachel. They offer a tune-up service (for a fee) which gives you a new impeller and battery door, along with updated software (I believe) as well as re-calibrating the unit. If this was used a lot, or your just getting a used one, I would suggest this service so you know the unit is correctly calibrated.

Otherwise, if the software is working, there really isn't a need to have it updated to the newer versions. Not all devices are capable of being updated as well - so if its really old, you may be stuck with what you have.

In either case above, you need to call that number to get an RA before you send it to them, so call Rachel and ask about what options you have (given your serial number).

-- alternatively, you can try to check the unit against good known instruments to verify if its in calibration or not...

 

[NOMAD]

Re: Kestrel model help

Your only looking at $60 more for the 4500 and once you get it you really dont need anything else unless you want to run the Horus ballistics. I have had a 4500 for many years and it has done everything i have ever needed. Meters http://www.impactdatabooks.com/Tools_s/128.htm

 

[CleanMoostang]

Re: Kestrel model help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NOMAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your only looking at $60 more for the 4500 and once you get it you really dont need anything else unless you want to run the Horus ballistics. I have had a 4500 for many years and it has done everything i have ever needed. Meters http://www.impactdatabooks.com/Tools_s/128.htm

</div></div>

The 4K model you have on your website is the same one I bought off a guy, currently getting shipped. Just didnt know if it was up to par with the new version who have 4000 stamped on the bottom instead above the display.

ETA - According to a NK representative, only difference is looks.

 

[Weaselthis]

Tag for future reference

 

[mikeltee]

All you need is range once the new Applied Ballistics models come in. Then you can leave all that other stuff at home. Nothing else makes it so simple. Well maybe the new 3500$ Geovids. All you need is wind for them. I do believe they calculate off the G7 profile as well. My setup will be the new Horus with the new Bushnell mile binos both of which are due in June.

 

[billetman]

I think the bluetooth is well worth it if you shop around you can get a 4500bt for 320.00. the less I need to enter into an app the better when you are out in the field. I have no regrets.

 

[Will Fennell]

The Kestral 3500 gives me all the data I can get, and still use the same battery as my NF F1. You know, the battery that doesn't leak and ruin your kestrel 4500 like the AAA's do.....

 

[dean253]

The handiest two things I use on my Kestrel are the DA & the crosswind features. If you don't currently use DA it is worth looking into. It seems to simplify things when making your range cards.