Keyhole issue

[Spaztikhi]

I just purchased a new Ruger American Predator 6.5 Creedmoor. Using Hornady Precision Hunter EDL-X 143 gr. 1st shot 100 yards (sighting scope) 3/8 plywood. Left a perfect boat shaped hole. Wondered if it was shooting really low and skipped off the ground causing it to tumble. 2nd shot 65 yards, raised higher, bullet went higher but again a boat shaped hole. I have read that this load does well in other 1 in 8 barrels. I have a friend that is going to check out the rifling and head spacing because he too thinks it is the gun and not the ammo. I am having a hard time with at 2700fps 65 to 100 yards this is turning completely sideways in this short distance. We are going to try different loads as well but I'm not expecting different results. Any suggestions or guidance is appreciated

 

[Odindad]

Check your headstamp on the brass. I have seen the wrong caliber in a new box of ammo before. How is the recoil? If it is very mild that could also be an indicator of undersized projectiles. You may have got 6mm creedmoor by mistake.

 

[Spaztikhi]

Check your headstamp on the brass. I have seen the wrong caliber in a new box of ammo before. How is the recoil? If it is very mild that could also be an indicator of undersized projectiles. You may have got 6mm creedmoor by mistake.

I had checked that right after the first shot and it says 6.5 Creedmoor on the box and the casing. Is it possible to press the the incorrect bullet in the correct casing?

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

I had checked that right after the first shot and it says 6.5 Creedmoor on the box and the casing. Is it possible to press the the incorrect bullet in the correct casing?

It's possible I suppose. Highly unlikely, but worth a check. If you have a calipers or a micrometer, you can measure the bullets.
Or pull the bolt from your rifle and see if the bullet will easily slide in the muzzle end. Don't force anything as if it's 6mm, it'll slide in with no effort. Don't force a 6.5mm bullet in there.

 

[hollowoutadime]

It would be pretty odd to have a factory ammo with a 6mm bullet in 6.5 brass as it would fall out or be overly crimped, but stranger things have....

Is there a brake or suppressor on it that might be adversely affecting accuracy? If a bullet grazes a muzzle device, that sort of thing can happen. (this would do it if the threads aren't done correctly)

Good picture, btw. Keyholed perfectly.

 

[kindabitey]

Take any muzzle device (if you have one) off, and shoot at 20 yds to see if it still does it. If not, most likely skipping off the ground.

 

[hollowoutadime]

Take any muzzle device (if you have one) off, and shoot at 20 yds to see if it still does it. If not, most likely skipping off the ground.

Good call.
Zero your scope to about 2" above that point of impact, that will put you close at 60-100 yds and you won't be skipping (if that were the case)

 

[Forward543]

Check muzzle for loose brake, or defect in the crown.

 

[SN13]

On a positive note, it's a beautiful boat shaped hole.

 

[Spaztikhi]

It would be pretty odd to have a factory ammo with a 6mm bullet in 6.5 brass as it would fall out or be overly crimped, but stranger things have....

Is there a brake or suppressor on it that might be adversely affecting accuracy? If a bullet grazes a muzzle device, that sort of thing can happen. (this would do it if the threads aren't done correctly)

Good picture, btw. Keyholed perfectly.

No brake or suppressor. Bad barrel or incorrectly stamped (marked 6.5CM when its actually something else. I live by Murphy's law! Itching to sight it in and shoot it since I just bought it, looks like Ruger does not pay return shipping, 2 to 4 week turn around, lost in mail Hahahaha

 

[Spaztikhi]

Good call.
Zero your scope to about 2" above that point of impact, that will put you close at 60-100 yds and you won't be skipping (if that were the case)

The second shot (left side mid) was taken at 65 yards aiming at the upper left corner. I did this because I too thought it might be skipping, so aiming at the top, and reduced distance would have eliminated bounce (100 yards bottom right contact vs 65 yards mid left contact)

 

[b6graham]

what does bore sighting show you?

any chance there's no rifling in the barrel?

 

[Spaztikhi]

what does bore sighting show you?

any chance there's no rifling in the barrel?

Rifling present with visible copper residue from bullet

 

[6.5SH]

Able to elevate your firing position to a table or tailgate?

 

[Lange Carabine]

It would be pretty odd to have a factory ammo with a 6mm bullet in 6.5 brass as it would fall out or be overly crimped, but stranger things have....

Is there a brake or suppressor on it that might be adversely affecting accuracy? If a bullet grazes a muzzle device, that sort of thing can happen. (this would do it if the threads aren't done correctly)

Good picture, btw. Keyholed perfectly.

Somewhere around here I have a 7mm-08 headstamped 243 Win cartridge that came out of a box of Remington 7mm-08 factory loaded ammo.
Not a single blemish other than the incorrect headstamp.

 

[Snuby642]

Las time I saw a keyhole like that was a 220 sub shot through a 1/10 twist instead of 1/7.

Not sure I would shoot it till checked out thoroughly by a competent gunsmith.

Another set of independant eyes, not to say anything about your skills.

Did you get a normal ammount of recoil? Can you pull one of the bullets and measure charge or put it back in the case for a visual reference?

 

[Spaztikhi]

Able to elevate your firing position to a table or tailgate?

Sorry I left out that bit of crucial info.1" thick plywood laying across the bed of the Polaris Ranger, Caldwell tack driver bag. I would say the gun was 3 to 3.5 feet off of the ground when these were shot

 

[Spaztikhi]

Las time I saw a keyhole like that was a 220 sub shot through a 1/10 twist instead of 1/7.

Not sure I would shoot it till checked out thoroughly by a competent gunsmith.

Another set of independant eyes, not to say anything about your skills.

Did you get a normal ammount of recoil? Can you pull one of the bullets and measure charge or put it back in the case for a visual reference?

Being checked out now. Never shot a 6.5 before so nothing to compare recoil. I'm definitely not an expert, so all the help is appreciated.

 

[Baron23]

The second shot (left side mid) was taken at 65 yards aiming at the upper left corner. I did this because I too thought it might be skipping, so aiming at the top, and reduced distance would have eliminated bounce (100 yards bottom right contact vs 65 yards mid left contact)
View attachment 7397646

Wow, I wouldn't shoot it either until I found out what is causing this major malfunction.

I'm betting its the rifle....but I have been known to be wrong....many times! haha

Sorry, not making light of your situation. I think the suggestion of having a decent gunsmith look at it is a good one...or send it back to Ruger.

Question, have you tried any other 6.5 CM in it and if so, what joy?

 

[Snuby642]

I reload, i have started to use progressive presses for bulk 223 loads. (Used to be pistol only).

I have made some mistakes in the middle of load development including but not limited to,
Run out of primers, (mess)
Run out of powder ( pull bullets, mess)
And a primer not seated fully causing a ftf (embarrassed).
When you quit changing things and run them it is eisier.

That being said I'm human.

So if an ammo manufacturer sent out a box with some half filled cases I would understand .
Most will make it right with some email time.

If any one you know has a puller it would be easy to see if case was less than say shoulder start high at least.

I would do that before going to a local gs and with wait times what they are go to local for a check before sending into factory.

Also retrive a spent case or two for evaluation.

I have never had a malfunction on any ruger that was not self inflicted.

 

[hollowoutadime]

Since you're not familiar with the caliber.
Buy another box of bullets, different brand. Look at the two loaded cartridges, brass should be the same dimensions.

 

[kcsmith]

Can you hang of piece of paper or cardboard close to the barrel to see if its tumbling upon exit?

Can you retrieve the bullet and Is the bullet jacket intact ?

Burr on the crown maybe ?

Im no expert either , but will be folllwing this thread.

 

[Lange Carabine]

Slug the bore, should be .256" across the lands and .264" groove assuming grooves are .004" deep.

 

[brianf]

Slug the bore, should be .256" across the lands and .264" groove assuming grooves are .004" deep.

the OP doesnt even reload and you want him to slug a bore??

 

[Lange Carabine]

the OP doesnt even reload and you want him to slug a bore??

Uhm, are you suggesting that since the OP doesnt reload he's somehow too inept to do anything else?
And I dont recall saying the OP had to do it himself, I merely recommended having it done.

 

[Billl223]

The first thing I would do is make sure the bullet is not skipping. Set up a 2' x 2' paper target at 25 yards and shoot at the middle. Once you know where the impact is adjust "0" then try longer ranges.

 

[Spaztikhi]

the OP doesnt even reload and you want him to slug a bore??

It's all good gentlemen! A little rundown. I have always been around and owned firearms, the people that I hung with until 2000, had reloading equipment and helped me alot with handgun and 22-250 reloading and enjoyed the heck out of trying different loads and what I had to do to dial it in. In 2000 I moved to Florida, and let it slip, and took on other interests. I have moved back home, my friends have both passed away and I'm on my own. I know that factory loads have come along way, and for now factory loads will work for me. I won't be trying to punch anything past 500 yards let alone competing for the king of 2 miles. I I'm sure I will get this figured out, just aggravating. Okay I guess a little inept. Slugging?

 

[FALex]

Slugging the barrel? LOL!!! Sorry man, but this is a Ruger American. Your time would be better served getting an RMA from Ruger and sending it back to them with an explanation of your issue (assuming you've diagnosed the more obvious concerns about bullet skipping, crown deformations, or brake/suppressor/etc hanging off the muzzle).

I don't even know if I would bother slugging a barrel at anytime nowadays. Most companies are relatively happy to make sure the end users are happy. Even on a custom job, I'd still send the barrel back. It's not like they can't tell if it's been shot out or not.

 

[Spaztikhi]

The first thing I would do is make sure the bullet is not skipping. Set up a 2' x 2' paper target at 25 yards and shoot at the middle. Once you know where the impact is adjust "0" then try longer ranges.

I have it at a local gunsmith right now and he is checking it out. If it gets a clean bill of health, then we try different loads. The rifle was set up 3.5' off of the ground, aiming at a point 24" off the ground at a distance of 65 yards. The bullet would have to hit the ground 10 yards before the board, to impact it 1/2 way up the board. In my thinking, there would have to be visible issue with the barrel? I also looked after both shots and saw no visible marks on the ground.

 

[Lange Carabine]

Bore slugging: an old school way of determining bore dimensions/defects, the traditional method involves driving a greased soft lead "slug" slightly larger the groove diameter the entire length of the bore. Think loading a muzzle loader. A bit tedious with smaller calibers but doable nonetheless.
Once the slug is removed from the bore it can then be measured to determine bore dimensions, i.e. land(rifling) and groove diameters.
A defective barrel may have a bore that tapers slightly from one end to the other(if it happens to be larger on the muzzle end bullets may keyhole) or it may have a tight spot. Slugging will only tell you the dimensions of the smallest portion of the bore.
If theres a tight spot the bullet will get swaged down as it passes and will be a loose fit the rest of the way. This may result in bullets keyholing if it's loose enough to jump the rifling.
You will feel the resistance change suddenly if theres a tight spot. Otherwise, after an inch or so of starting the friction should be consistent as the slug is tapped along the length of the bore with a wood or soft brass/aluminum rod. If it gradually "loosens up" and gets to the point where it can pushed along with little or no force this could, but not always, indicate a tapered bore. Tool marks can shave off lead along the way causing friction to be reduced or eliminated.

 

[Lange Carabine]

Slugging the barrel? LOL!!! Sorry man, but this is a Ruger American. Your time would be better served getting an RMA from Ruger and sending it back to them with an explanation of your issue (assuming you've diagnosed the more obvious concerns about bullet skipping, crown deformations, or brake/suppressor/etc hanging off the muzzle).

I don't even know if I would bother slugging a barrel at anytime nowadays. Most companies are relatively happy to make sure the end users are happy. Even on a custom job, I'd still send the barrel back. It's not like they can't tell if it's been shot out or not.

Yeah, I reckon you're right. In this modern day and age where everything is disposable theres no longer any interest or incentive in determining the root cause of a problem. Why waste you're time sorting it out, just send it back and get another one and hope it's better than the first one.

 

[Spaztikhi]

Slugging the barrel? LOL!!! Sorry man, but this is a Ruger American. Your time would be better served getting an RMA from Ruger and sending it back to them with an explanation of your issue (assuming you've diagnosed the more obvious concerns about bullet skipping, crown deformations, or brake/suppressor/etc hanging off the muzzle).

I don't even know if I would bother slugging a barrel at anytime nowadays. Most companies are relatively happy to make sure the end users are happy. Even on a custom job, I'd still send the barrel back. It's not like they can't tell if it's been shot out or not.
Sat on hold for 50 min. W

Bore slugging: an old school way of determining bore dimensions/defects, the traditional method involves driving a greased soft lead "slug" slightly larger the groove diameter the entire length of the bore. Think loading a muzzle loader. A bit tedious with smaller calibers but doable nonetheless.
Once the slug is removed from the bore it can then be measured to determine bore dimensions, i.e. land(rifling) and groove diameters.
A defective barrel may have a bore that tapers slightly from one end to the other(if it happens to be larger on the muzzle end bullets may keyhole) or it may have a tight spot. Slugging will only tell you the dimensions of the smallest portion of the bore.
If theres a tight spot the bullet will get swaged down as it passes and will be a loose fit the rest of the way. This may result in bullets keyholing if it's loose enough to jump the rifling.
You will feel the resistance change suddenly if theres a tight spot. Otherwise, after an inch or so of starting the friction should be consistent as the slug is tapped along the length of the bore with a wood or soft brass/aluminum rod. If it gradually "loosens up" and gets to the point where it can pushed along with little or no force this could, but not always, indicate a tapered bore. Tool marks can shave off lead along the way causing friction to be reduced or eliminated.

Thank you for explaining! Just received return contact from Ruger requesting the rifle be returned to the factory for inspection. We will see what happens. Thank you all for talking the time to help. Will keep you posted

 

[FuddLuck]

Hopefully Ruger can solve the mystery. Will be a real kick in the gut to get a letter claiming they can’t find any issues.

 

[Holliday]

Ok I recently had a S&W barrel replaced on a 2013 1911. When I called them it was in the shipping room, on its way back with a clean bill of health. I got a supervisor on the phone and made my case.....

Had the same thing happen with Bushmaster years back. The moral of the story is do not trust. Trust is just an excuse to come here and bitch about how they did nothing.

Track this rifle, get them on the phone and make friends with someone in authority while making the case that you are not just some wing-nut that can’t shoot. You are also not someone who is just going quietly into the night.......

 

[kcsmith]

A manufacturer may not reveal what the problem was leaving us all in the dust.

 

[308pirate]

Was your scope boresighted? Have you tried shooting that thing at 25 - 50 yards?

Why 65 yards? That's an odball distance to zero in a rifle. Nothing about this makes sense, including what you're doing.

 

[Spaztikhi]

Was your scope boresighted? Have you tried shooting that thing at 25 - 50 yards?

Why 65 yards? That's an odball distance to zero in a rifle. Nothing about this makes sense, including what you're doing.

Bore sighted (crude but always got me close enough for a start) sighting through barrel on a fixed point at 25 yards, adjust scope accordingly. Second question, was not trying to zero in. Keyhole at 100, moved closer and aimed higher because at that time I was thinking the first shot skipped off of the ground. I did not try at 25 yards because its a 6.5 Creedmoor, 25 yards for that gun would be like setting a target at 3 feet to sight in a 22, so why not set it at 100. Looking back, I hit a 24" x 24" board with a bullet doing the hokey pokey at 100 yards, and could have easily zeroed it in. At 25 the bullet hole would have looked normal because it have had less distance to spin. My thinking anyway. Humor me and explain " Nothing about this makes sense, including what you're doing" because guidance from someone who know everything might be what I am looking for.

 

[Lange Carabine]

If the bullet is full profile keyholing at 65 yds, the hole wont look "normal" at 25 yds. It will be noticeably elongated.

 

[308pirate]

I did not try at 25 yards because its a 6.5 Creedmoor, 25 yards for that gun would be like setting a target at 3 feet to sight in a 22, so why not set it at 100. Looking back, I hit a 24" x 24" board with a bullet doing the hokey pokey at 100 yards, and could have easily zeroed it in. At 25 the bullet hole would have looked normal because it have had less distance to spin. My thinking anyway.

The first thing everyone does when they have a keyholing issue is to investigate at what distance the keyholing begins.

 

[Spaztikhi]

If the bullet is full profile keyholing at 65 yds, the hole wont look "normal" at 25 yds. It will be noticeably elongated.

At 100 it was full profile keyhole, 65 partial and noticeable, at 25 I believe it will be barely noticeable. I guess what I need to do is start at 25 using different loads and then step out to 50 and repeat. I have not had time this week between rain and work. If switching loads solves the problem, Great! If not, I would say it has to be the rifle. I am a little leary after others have said I should not shoot it until it is checked out.

 

[FuddLuck]

If safety is of concern, I would err or the side of caution and hold off shooting until it’s been inspected by the factory. Better safe than sorry, especially considering it’s probably a few weeks difference.

 

[Spaztikhi]

It's possible I suppose. Highly unlikely, but worth a check. If you have a calipers or a micrometer, you can measure the bullets.
Or pull the bolt from your rifle and see if the bullet will easily slide in the muzzle end. Don't force anything as if it's 6mm, it'll slide in with no effort. Don't force a 6.5mm bullet in there.

One of the guys that work for me has taken the gun and bullets to a gunsmith / friend. Gun has not been checked yet but I was told the bullets specs are correct, amount of powder correct, case correct and no visible primer issue.

 

[308pirate]

At 100 it was full profile keyhole, 65 partial and noticeable, at 25 I believe it will be barely noticeable.

I've had to solve far more complex technical issues a multitude of times in my professional life.

Something I learned a hell of a long time ago is to let go of the phrases "that can't be it" or "there's no way that could happen" or "doing x won't show us anything" and similar thinking that narrows your ability to solve the problem.

Learn from what I'm telling you or not. I don't GAF either way.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

Something I learned a hell of a long time ago is to let go of the phrases "that can't be it" or "there's no way that could happen" or "doing x won't show us anything" and similar thinking that narrows your ability to solve the problem.

The amount of times I’ve heard “oh, it’ll be the (insert name here)” and monkeys just start swapping out perfectly serviceable parts with no troubleshooting or confirming of defective components simply astounds me.

They’ll then stand there scratching their heads and mumbling about how “well that usually fixes the problem, what do we do now?”.

Those fuckers are the very same ones that will make smart ass remarks and laugh at anyone actually fault finding and heaven help you if those kind of cunts find you with a torque wrench or service manual.........

 

[Travelor]

Friends don't let friends buy Rugers.

 

[Lange Carabine]

At 100 it was full profile keyhole, 65 partial and noticeable, at 25 I believe it will be barely noticeable. I guess what I need to do is start at 25 using different loads and then step out to 50 and repeat. I have not had time this week between rain and work. If switching loads solves the problem, Great! If not, I would say it has to be the rifle. I am

Friends don't let friends buy Rugers.

This isnt the first time I've heard of bullet stability issues with 6.5mm Ruger rifles.
About 15 years ago a friend bought one of the Ruger 77 carbines( I forget what Ruger called it) with the laminated wood stock and 16" pencil barrel in .260 Rem.
Never did get that thing to shoot worth a flip with any bullet over 100gr. He was a handloader and I believe he tried just about every powder/bullet combination available at the time. It just would not stabilize 120gr or heavier.
I had a Remington 700 VL with a 1-9 twist bbl in .260 when it first it first came out. It shot really well with bullet weights up to 129gr FB and ok with 140's but anything heavier it wouldn't stabilize.

 

[308pirate]

The amount of times I’ve heard “oh, it’ll be the (insert name here)” and monkeys just start swapping out perfectly serviceable parts with no troubleshooting or confirming of defective components simply astounds me.

They’ll then stand there scratching their heads and mumbling about how “well that usually fixes the problem, what do we do now?”.

Those fuckers are the very same ones that will make smart ass remarks and laugh at anyone actually fault finding and heaven help you if those kind of cunts find you with a torque wrench or service manual.........

My long lost brother!!!

 

[Holliday]

I've had to solve far more complex technical issues a multitude of times in my professional life.

Something I learned a hell of a long time ago is to let go of the phrases "that can't be it" or "there's no way that could happen" or "doing x won't show us anything" and similar thinking that narrows your ability to solve the problem.

Learn from what I'm telling you or not. I don't GAF either way.

I do tech support every day for motorcycle fuel solutions I designed and sell. Most are diy-ers and believe me that is better than mechanics w/ 30 year experience any day.

I always tell folks to think in very simple terms and whatever you are sure it isn’t, triple check that. I have had three customers with not enough gas in their tank this year. They never think to go to reserve. “ The bike starts and then it dies. I can’t figure out what’s wrong. I’ve checked everything “

 

[308pirate]

I have had three customers with not enough gas in their tank this year. They never think to go to reserve. “ The bike starts and then it dies. I can’t figure out what’s wrong. I’ve checked everything

Good thing they're riding bikes and not flying airplanes............

 

[Spaztikhi]

I've had to solve far more complex technical issues a multitude of times in my professional life.

Something I learned a hell of a long time ago is to let go of the phrases "that can't be it" or "there's no way that could happen" or "doing x won't show us anything" and similar thinking that narrows your ability to solve the problem.

Learn from what I'm telling you or not. I don't GAF either way.

No I am listening. You know more about this than I do. I was just thinking that when I dropped in distance, aimed higher to eliminate bounce and it still hit sideways, why shoot at a shorter distance. Sorry I thought you were pointing out that you think I'm a moron, when I have already stated that I am not as knowledgeable as most on here, and was asking for suggestions and pointers. Its all good