Hunting & Fishing Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman

[Ronws]

Just up front, I will be the dumbest guy here with the least experience and knowledge. So, feel free to ignore my observations and my feelings will not be hurt and I know this is an old thread. I think it is still important because it is still being discussed.

There is a video by one of the guys at Federal Ammunition talking about hydrostatic shock and wound channels. That after you get past a certain velocity, you create a permanent wound channel.

And I notice that people shooting arrows at a fraction of bullet speeds kill deer and elk, and even moose, all the time. Even if the broadhead is so many grains, it would have done not enough if it glanced off the shoulder blade. With archery, you must absolutely hit the 'Vital Vee" explained by the Ranch Fairy on youtube. And that is shot placement,

I have seen Rob Arrington at deermeatfordinner bring down a canadian moose at distance with his Howa 1500 in 6.5 Creedmoor shooting Hornady 143 grain ELD-X.

I have seen Ron Spomer shoot an elk with his 7 mm Rem Mag and it took three shots to bring the beast down.

Someone I know harvested an Aoudad Sheep with a .300 Win Mag and he advocates hunting whitetail with a .300 Win Mag and thinks anyone shooting less than that is foolish.

All these different sizes, weights, and muzzle velocities. And the common element is shot placement. The better shot placement is, I think, the deciding factor. If it was hydrostatic shock alone, I could hunt whitetail with my M4A3 shooting 55 grain 5.56 at 3450 fps. Instead, I hunt whitetail with .308 Win and would consider it also good for mule deer, maybe elk, if my shot placement is good.

I think hydrostatic shock is a contributing factor but I am not so sure that it is creating the same damage as the actual impact of bullet and bullet fragments.

And I could be totally wrong. I am just going from what I have seen, more than theory. What bullet did what.

I also think the amount of work done by the bullet in the body is key. Just as Elmer Keith would say. If you get a bullet zipping through before having time to expand, you often lose a harvest.

 

[JAS-SH]

Just ran into this post and decided to comment.

I’ve read about this topic a lot, and from a lot of very educated people on the subject. What I’ve learned, the bottom line, is that killing animals, us included, can be done in many ways, some more humane than others. And there is no mystery, nor magic that changes that at this point in time.

If humane is what we are after we need to define that. First, death is the cessation of all electrical activity in the brain. The quicker that happens the more humane. The quickest of all is blunt force trauma to the brain – think sledgehammer. A close second is blunt force trauma to the whole body (including the brain), as in getting hit by a fast-moving semi.

Trauma to the brain by bullets is sometimes not quick – there are many examples of that, and survivors, i.e., Jim Brady. Most all other methods involve asphyxiation of the brain, which stops all electrical activity, but it takes longer, sometimes much longer.

Small projectiles as those used in man portable arms can accomplish this “quickness” but it is difficult to do with certainty. And to complicate things we use these firearms to kill everything from 1-pound varmints at hundreds of yards to 8-ton elephants at 25 paces. So, you can readily see that there is no one size/kind projectile, nor one theory that fits all situations.

In the case of the 8-ton elephant at 25 paces you best make sure to use a firearm and projectile that can make brain electrical activity cease immediately – quick follow up shots being sometimes necessary and always recommended. This activity takes a completely different bullet and a completely different approach than say shooting a member of the Cervidae family at over 100 yards.

Humanely terminating a deer sized animal via a bullet to the brain at over 100 paces, a smallish head that is constantly moving, is not easy at all. So, the tried-and-true alternative is to perforate BOTH lungs. Bigger target, more stationary than the head. But death takes longer - brain activity still ceases by asphyxiation (of the brain).

Differences in bullet size, construction, velocity, and energy exist for a reason. And by the way, this temporary cavity that the OP speaks about does not accelerate death (examples are too many to cite here – you can start with humans in the world wars), shock is distinctly possible, but not necessarily quick death.

Furthermore, a temporary cavity can be created by any size and shape bullet. The cavity is created by kinetic energy as in 1/2MV2. Increasing velocity – which is squared by the way, has practically no mass of consequence. So, it’s a lot more practical when carrying human portable arms to increase the velocity to gain energy. Increasing velocity works to our advantage for all projectiles, not to create a temporary cavity but to increase penetration and produce a flatter trajectory.

But there are limits. No one wants to stand up and shoulder fire a high velocity 20mm round. Still, there are those 8-ton elephants in the room that require large calibers, and hard, heavy metal with huge meplats - period. And that’s one of the many reasons why they are hunted up close and personal. Those projectiles don’t go very far in a flat trajectory and lose energy quicker.

There is one other method for humanely terminating deer size game that is very quick, albeit not as quick as a well-placed and low probability head shot. A shot through both bones at the shoulder joints (scapula) will impact the brachial plexus. A shot there will go through all the nerve bundles and major arteries leading to the brain, also using bone shrapnel to boot. No blood flow to the brain means asphyxiation and by adding an electrical short circuit from nerve damage the animal drops right then and there. Quite humane. Again, not nearly as easy as a lung shot, especially at longer distances, and a projectile capable of going through both bones must be used. On the negative side it also wastes meat.

So there, that’s how it works. There is no mystery, no magic to it.

JAS-SH

 

[Ronws]

Just ran into this post and decided to comment.

I’ve read about this topic a lot, and from a lot of very educated people on the subject. What I’ve learned, the bottom line, is that killing animals, us included, can be done in many ways, some more humane than others. And there is no mystery, nor magic that changes that at this point in time.

If humane is what we are after we need to define that. First, death is the cessation of all electrical activity in the brain. The quicker that happens the more humane. The quickest of all is blunt force trauma to the brain – think sledgehammer. A close second is blunt force trauma to the whole body (including the brain), as in getting hit by a fast-moving semi.

Trauma to the brain by bullets is sometimes not quick – there are many examples of that, and survivors, i.e., Jim Brady. Most all other methods involve asphyxiation of the brain, which stops all electrical activity, but it takes longer, sometimes much longer.

Small projectiles as those used in man portable arms can accomplish this “quickness” but it is difficult to do with certainty. And to complicate things we use these firearms to kill everything from 1-pound varmints at hundreds of yards to 8-ton elephants at 25 paces. So, you can readily see that there is no one size/kind projectile, nor one theory that fits all situations.

In the case of the 8-ton elephant at 25 paces you best make sure to use a firearm and projectile that can make brain electrical activity cease immediately – quick follow up shots being sometimes necessary and always recommended. This activity takes a completely different bullet and a completely different approach than say shooting a member of the Cervidae family at over 100 yards.

Humanely terminating a deer sized animal via a bullet to the brain at over 100 paces, a smallish head that is constantly moving, is not easy at all. So, the tried-and-true alternative is to perforate BOTH lungs. Bigger target, more stationary than the head. But death takes longer - brain activity still ceases by asphyxiation (of the brain).

Differences in bullet size, construction, velocity, and energy exist for a reason. And by the way, this temporary cavity that the OP speaks about does not accelerate death (examples are too many to cite here – you can start with humans in the world wars), shock is distinctly possible, but not necessarily quick death.

Furthermore, a temporary cavity can be created by any size and shape bullet. The cavity is created by kinetic energy as in 1/2MV2. Increasing velocity – which is squared by the way, has practically no mass of consequence. So, it’s a lot more practical when carrying human portable arms to increase the velocity to gain energy. Increasing velocity works to our advantage for all projectiles, not to create a temporary cavity but to increase penetration and produce a flatter trajectory.

But there are limits. No one wants to stand up and shoulder fire a high velocity 20mm round. Still, there are those 8-ton elephants in the room that require large calibers, and hard, heavy metal with huge meplats - period. And that’s one of the many reasons why they are hunted up close and personal. Those projectiles don’t go very far in a flat trajectory and lose energy quicker.

There is one other method for humanely terminating deer size game that is very quick, albeit not as quick as a well-placed and low probability head shot. A shot through both bones at the shoulder joints (scapula) will impact the brachial plexus. A shot there will go through all the nerve bundles and major arteries leading to the brain, also using bone shrapnel to boot. No blood flow to the brain means asphyxiation and by adding an electrical short circuit from nerve damage the animal drops right then and there. Quite humane. Again, not nearly as easy as a lung shot, especially at longer distances, and a projectile capable of going through both bones must be used. On the negative side it also wastes meat.

So there, that’s how it works. There is no mystery, no magic to it.

JAS-SH

I am so glad you said that. Again, I have not had rifles very long. I have shot hand guns over the years since 1974 when I was still a kid. I have fished salt water and fresh water since before then. Only in the last couple of years have I had the chance and ability to get into hunting, specifically whitetail deer, which is my main objective. I grew up around the military but never served because of a medical disqualification. And so, I have never been an "operator" or a sniper (with a specific MOS) or a DM in a unit. But I grew up around people in the armed forces. Funny thing, my first step-father was in the Navy and I had a military id when I was 9 years old so that I could go aboard the USS Ogden. Off in the weeds there, sorry.

I know a number of people advocate the heart and lung shot. Take the shoulder and run a line down. Then pick a spot halfway between the scapula and the brisket line and that is your zone.

However, as you said, death comes from cessation of brain function, even with a heart and lung shot. What happens is that the blood is no longer oxygenated and the brain dies. And I agree, the most humane death is either a brain shot or brachial plexus shot, near the top of the scapula. Either one but especially the brachial plexus shot ends the functioning of the deer. I have seen so many videos where someone did shoot through the bottom of both lung lobes and the heart and the deer ran 100 yards on the last oxygenated supply.

Someone I know shot an Aoudad Sheep with a .300 Win Mag, right in the boiler maker. And that big horn turn toward him and started charging and he racked another round. By the time he was in battery, the sheep dropped. But it ran a bit over 30 yards on the last surge of blood.

But every deer shot in the brachial plexus drops right where it is because not only has the nerve center been stopped, the physical structure of at least one shoulder has been destroyed. This is really handy if you are hunting near a private property to which you have no access and cannot afford for the deer to jump the fence and get away.

Some might say you could lose some back strap or the flat iron steak. I say, having gone through tough times with no venison that some back strap is better than no back strap. I don't think any one is going to disagree with me.

 

[JAS-SH]

I am so glad you said that. Again, I have not had rifles very long. I have shot hand guns over the years since 1974 when I was still a kid. I have fished salt water and fresh water since before then. Only in the last couple of years have I had the chance and ability to get into hunting, specifically whitetail deer, which is my main objective. I grew up around the military but never served because of a medical disqualification. And so, I have never been an "operator" or a sniper (with a specific MOS) or a DM in a unit. But I grew up around people in the armed forces. Funny thing, my first step-father was in the Navy and I had a military id when I was 9 years old so that I could go aboard the USS Ogden. Off in the weeds there, sorry.

I know a number of people advocate the heart and lung shot. Take the shoulder and run a line down. Then pick a spot halfway between the scapula and the brisket line and that is your zone.

However, as you said, death comes from cessation of brain function, even with a heart and lung shot. What happens is that the blood is no longer oxygenated and the brain dies. And I agree, the most humane death is either a brain shot or brachial plexus shot, near the top of the scapula. Either one but especially the brachial plexus shot ends the functioning of the deer. I have seen so many videos where someone did shoot through the bottom of both lung lobes and the heart and the deer ran 100 yards on the last oxygenated supply.

Someone I know shot an Aoudad Sheep with a .300 Win Mag, right in the boiler maker. And that big horn turn toward him and started charging and he racked another round. By the time he was in battery, the sheep dropped. But it ran a bit over 30 yards on the last surge of blood.

But every deer shot in the brachial plexus drops right where it is because not only has the nerve center been stopped, the physical structure of at least one shoulder has been destroyed. This is really handy if you are hunting near a private property to which you have no access and cannot afford for the deer to jump the fence and get away.

Some might say you could lose some back strap or the flat iron steak. I say, having gone through tough times with no venison that some back strap is better than no back strap. I don't think any one is going to disagree with me.

Thanks. The brachial plexus is still a much smaller target than the lungs though. I believe that shot should not be attempted unless sure that it can be made. And made with a bullet that can easily break through bone with minimal deflection. The bullet and bone fragments have to impact very close to the vertebrae to be successful. It's is also an area where the temporary cavity would be pretty much useless. Natural selection has made the brachial plexus a very well protected area, with good reason!

Here's a pic of the target, with the lungs also shown for comparison:

All the best,

JAS-SH

 

[Ronws]

I totally agree. I have (.308 Win) Federal Premium Accubond Nosler 165 grain, Federal Fusion 165 grain, and Armscor HPBT 168 grain all performing the same with same rifle. I get different and loose results with Federal Nontypical Whitetail and Hornady SST. So, I stick with the first three. My barrel is a 1:12 twist. Averaging 1/2 MOA. Actual measurements at 100 yards on paper, 1/4 inch was the smallest and 3/4 was the largest. I had a one inch shot and I know that was me, not the rifle. And it does this regardless of heat. So, I say it is functionally a 1 MOA rifle with me shooting it.

Where I hunt is public land and it is very overgrown and primeval. Average open distance is 50 yards. Through the trees, a smidge more. I was out there on the 6th (opening day for the north section) and I tried my laser range finder but it was dinging off of closer plant leaves. So, I ranged with my reticle. A tree that I knew had about a 3 inch wide trunk. My scope is FFP. I measured 4 MOA. (3*95.5)/4 = 72 ish yards, which looked right, visually. And it is functional to range off a landmark. With my 100 yards zero, I can dial up 3 clicks for 50 yards or leave it on zero for 75 to 100 yards. So, my rifle and I are accurate enough, at 100 yards and less to make that shot.