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Killing a 40x value

#51
Re: Killing a 40x value

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Master_Blaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I just bought a pristine USMC marked 40x. I paid 1000 for it. I took it over to the gunsmith who refused to thread it cause it was so nice saying it would kill the value. Will it really hurt the value that bad? I have a suppressor I want to put on it for quiet practice.</div></div>

Yes, it will hurt the 'collectability value' of that rifle, seriously. If you are worried about it losing value, then don't do it. It's your gun though, and if you want to take a valuable rifle and devalue it to suit your purposes then so be it. I know that there are a lot less expensive ways to get exactly
what you want.

I'm not a collector by any means. But, for money purposes you would have to see the viability of that rifle's value. I would take another action that didn't cost near that much and build from the ground up. You more than likely will come out ahead financially on that as well.
 
#52
Re: Killing a 40x value

I'd figure 15-1800 in the end.
The real collectors will come in the last 15min.
Maybe higher
I'll watch the bidding war right here - nice rifle and
I'd bet the winner will never shoot it - pity
 
#53
Re: Killing a 40x value

I've never thought of competition guns as particularly collectible, and unless your pristine equals NIB, I doubt many high-dollar collectors would be interested.

I don't know how much more you'd get for a pristine USMC 40X, but I can't imagine it'd be that much more than what you paid for it.

I'd make it into whatever I want and never look back.
 
#54
Re: Killing a 40x value

I'm not sure what pristine is but for the gun its self if it is a USMC there are only a lil bit under 2700 of them that were ordered from Remington. With a rifle from the 50s that translates to at least 5% or more that no longer exist in the original condition and even less that are in the 90-98% area. A rifle that is 90% or better with blueing and stock being in good shape should bring 11-1500 with no issue. It should hold that value or go higher with time. That limited number is why the smith wouldn't do it. From the looks of things there are plenty of guys that would part with their good shooting rifles and trade (probably some with money to boot) so that you can make your plans happen and they can get a nice piece of history.

For the guys who aren't collectors and have no clue what they are talking about by saying just do it anyway please do your homework before giving advice.
 
#56
Re: Killing a 40x value

The preceding post has some interesting wisdom to it.

IMHO, it's your rifle. If it were mine, I wouldn't even be posting about it. Nobody else's business.

While there's some potential for crafting a sow's ear out of a silk purse; that is by no means a certainty. Whatever you make will be unique, the real question is whether it will be an improvment, too. Only you can answer that question. No other opinions really count.

Greg
 
#57
Re: Killing a 40x value

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigWill214</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the guys who aren't collectors and have no clue what they are talking about by saying just do it anyway please do your homework before giving advice. </div></div>
Shooters shoot, collectors collect. This isn't a $3M Gullwing Mercedes. Its a $1K gun... hell, call it a $2K gun, so the f what? Have you priced out a custom built rifle lately or even an accuraized Rem?

Barrel swap and stock swap... guess what? Still original. Swap them back and its worth the same. If your smith can't swap a stock or a barrel without damage, its time for another smith anyway.
 
#58
Re: Killing a 40x value

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RicosRevenge</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigWill214</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the guys who aren't collectors and have no clue what they are talking about by saying just do it anyway please do your homework before giving advice. </div></div>
Shooters shoot, collectors collect. This isn't a $3M Gullwing Mercedes. Its a $1K gun... hell, call it a $2K gun, so the f what? Have you priced out a custom built rifle lately or even an accuraized Rem?

Barrel swap and stock swap... guess what? Still original. Swap them back and its worth the same. If your smith can't swap a stock or a barrel without damage, its time for another smith anyway.
</div></div>


You hit it on the head there. Its like the new 40xb on gunbroker i was bidding on it went for 1675. but once its been shot its a 1200 dollar gun.a collector paid 1675 for it. if i would have got it i would have shot it.
 
#59
Re: Killing a 40x value

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RicosRevenge</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigWill214</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the guys who aren't collectors and have no clue what they are talking about by saying just do it anyway please do your homework before giving advice. </div></div>
Shooters shoot, collectors collect. This isn't a $3M Gullwing Mercedes. Its a $1K gun... hell, call it a $2K gun, so the f what? Have you priced out a custom built rifle lately or even an accuraized Rem?

Barrel swap and stock swap... guess what? Still original. Swap them back and its worth the same. If your smith can't swap a stock or a barrel without damage, its time for another smith anyway.


</div></div>
Here is the thing he isn't looking at a simple swap. He is looking to chop the barrel for threads for a suppressor. I would say a mod like that would be no different than when I found the pre64 264 of mine was reblued. It seriously cut the value of the gun. Sure you can cut it back and recrown it but now you are selling to a more specific crowd. The collectors would be out and you are left with a certain variety of shooters.

I have recently put together a custom rifle, yes. It easily went 4k. There again if I go to sell it there is a specific crowd that would be interested and collectors are not it. It's all pretty straight forward when you think about it. Its one way to determine if a new gun shop will be successful or not. If they cater to the public no problem but if it's their own interests they will probably fail.

 
#60
Re: Killing a 40x value

Damn, I haven't thought my 40x and xb were worth that much yet.

Can you still get a barreled action from CMP? I was tempted to get one and build it up in a McM.

I don't blame the smith. Turning down work as a smith is not a bad idea if he thinks the work will reflect poorly on his reputation as a gunsmith. Frankly more smiths should turn down work for shoddy silly requests. (not that yours is this, just in general)
I'm glad he was up front with you and leveled with you that the work would devalue your property. A fair amount of guys would just do the work without discussing it. I've seen other smiths do work on old guns and fail to return older sights and parts that are in demand by guys looking to restore guns. To me that's unconscionable without a frank arrangement for same.
 
#62
Re: Killing a 40x value

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigWill214</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is the thing he isn't looking at a simple swap. He is looking to chop the barrel for threads for a suppressor. I would say a mod like that would be no different than when I found the pre64 264 of mine was reblued. It seriously cut the value of the gun. Sure you can cut it back and recrown it but now you are selling to a more specific crowd. The collectors would be out and you are left with a certain variety of shooters.

I have recently put together a custom rifle, yes. It easily went 4k. There again if I go to sell it there is a specific crowd that would be interested and collectors are not it. It's all pretty straight forward when you think about it. Its one way to determine if a new gun shop will be successful or not. If they cater to the public no problem but if it's their own interests they will probably fail.

</div></div>
Thanks for the clarification! I think we got past cutting the barrel. Barrel cutting on a 40X Heavy Barrel creates more issues than de-value. The 40X was designed with a "choke point" in the last few inches of the barrel. Generally, when you cut the barrel it detracts significantly the accuracy. A few have had success with cutting, but more than a few have taken a tack driver and made a shotgun. Hence the reason for swapping barrels to get the desired length and to have a threaded barrel.
 
#63
Re: Killing a 40x value

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RicosRevenge</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigWill214</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is the thing he isn't looking at a simple swap. He is looking to chop the barrel for threads for a suppressor. I would say a mod like that would be no different than when I found the pre64 264 of mine was reblued. It seriously cut the value of the gun. Sure you can cut it back and recrown it but now you are selling to a more specific crowd. The collectors would be out and you are left with a certain variety of shooters.

I have recently put together a custom rifle, yes. It easily went 4k. There again if I go to sell it there is a specific crowd that would be interested and collectors are not it. It's all pretty straight forward when you think about it. Its one way to determine if a new gun shop will be successful or not. If they cater to the public no problem but if it's their own interests they will probably fail.

</div></div>
Thanks for the clarification! I think we got past cutting the barrel. Barrel cutting on a 40X Heavy Barrel creates more issues than de-value. <span style="color: #FF0000">The 40X was designed with a "choke point" in the last few inches of the barrel. </span> Generally, when you cut the barrel it detracts significantly the accuracy. A few have had success with cutting, but more than a few have taken a tack driver and made a shotgun. Hence the reason for swapping barrels to get the desired length and to have a threaded barrel. </div></div>

Got any more info on that? What is a "choke point" in a rifle barrel?
 
#64
Re: Killing a 40x value

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jtb33</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RicosRevenge</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigWill214</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is the thing he isn't looking at a simple swap. He is looking to chop the barrel for threads for a suppressor. I would say a mod like that would be no different than when I found the pre64 264 of mine was reblued. It seriously cut the value of the gun. Sure you can cut it back and recrown it but now you are selling to a more specific crowd. The collectors would be out and you are left with a certain variety of shooters.

I have recently put together a custom rifle, yes. It easily went 4k. There again if I go to sell it there is a specific crowd that would be interested and collectors are not it. It's all pretty straight forward when you think about it. Its one way to determine if a new gun shop will be successful or not. If they cater to the public no problem but if it's their own interests they will probably fail.

</div></div>
Thanks for the clarification! I think we got past cutting the barrel. Barrel cutting on a 40X Heavy Barrel creates more issues than de-value. <span style="color: #FF0000">The 40X was designed with a "choke point" in the last few inches of the barrel. </span> Generally, when you cut the barrel it detracts significantly the accuracy. A few have had success with cutting, but more than a few have taken a tack driver and made a shotgun. Hence the reason for swapping barrels to get the desired length and to have a threaded barrel. </div></div>

Got any more info on that? What is a "choke point" in a rifle barrel? </div></div>

This is a common thing. Some barrels are lapped this way. Ultimately, a barrel that opens at the muzzle will not shoot, period! The bore needs to be perfectly consistent, or slightly choked. With a careful hand, it can usually be felt with a cleaning rod.


IMO: Don't screw up the 40X. Sell it to someone who appreciates it for the small chunk of history it is, value aside.
 
#67
Re: Killing a 40x value

I am a shooter not a collector. Whether its a piece of crap or a sought after firearm I make my own decisions about changes that suit me and me only. You bought it...it's yours. Only one opinion matters.
 
#68
Re: Killing a 40x value

Only one way to find out if it is choked.
Slug the bbl - some had it some did not.
One of mine has one about an inch and a half in.
Also had pitting at 6 o'clock for a big chunk.
My bbl is coming off - If you want a wall hanger buy a picture
put it in a nice frame - you don't even have to keep it oiled.
 
#69
Re: Killing a 40x value

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 750k2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
One of mine has one about an inch and a half in.
</div></div>
Is this in the same range as the front sight mount?

I've been reading up on Kimber barrels lately and found that on many barrels, that they experience choking where the sights blocks are. Kind of like while the machinists were drilling and tapping fpr the sight blocks that there was excessive pressure creating what feels like a choke. The problem with this is that although this creates a choke, it only creates the choke on the top of the barrel; not the remaining circumference of the bore. My theory is that this "single sided choke" now distorts the bullet on the one side as it passes by this point in the barrel and ultimately creates an unpredictable round.

I'd be curious if you notice a difference in the accuracy between your two 40X's. With the one without the choke being more accurate. Well scratch that... that 6 o'clock pitted spot in the bore of the one would nulify the comparisson. Still curious about the tight spot being under the sight block though.
 
#70
Re: Killing a 40x value

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that 6 o'clock pitted spot in the bore of the one would nulify the comparisson.</div></div>
Since I've seen a couple of you mention pitting at 6:00 in the bore, I thought it might be worth mentioning that that is a typical wear pattern in high mileage smallbore rifles. Without seeing it first hand I can't say if it's truly the case, but smallbore rifles show very noticeable erosion at 6:00 that can run near half the bore with the 12:00 portion looking nearly pristine...and they'll still shoot good like that.
 
#71
Re: Killing a 40x value

My smith said it would shoot good for a while with a set back and cut & crown.
Good for a while don't cut it - a rifle that won't shoot exceptional is just a fancy
hammer. I mess with all my stuff til I think they are perfect - which means I have
very few arms that are put aside as done and even they will go for upgrades as
I come up with more screwball ideas - I will never stop building and rebuilding.
Except my Tom Caster .54 Beck flinter - It is PERFECT.
 
#72
Re: Killing a 40x value

Got my CMP bareled action finally. If it shoots amazing, I will leave it alone. If it shoots anything else, I am cutting it down. Will thread either way. I am done shooting unsupressed.

What Im not sure I want to do is mill out the side of the action so a normal safety can operate, essentially making it a rem 700 action. Right now, I dont have a safety on it because I put it in a return stock (put a backup trigger on it and notched it to fit in stock). I am not going to open up/mill/dremel/alter my return stock in any way. So if I am to build a 22 M40A1 clone, I have to have a safety there. On the other hand, I am the only one shooting, and it is a single shot. But it still makes me nervous not having a safety.

Will prob end up milling the action, cutting the barrel, and threading for suppressor at end of day though. Or leave if it shoots amazing.

Regards,
DT
 
#73
Re: Killing a 40x value

I'm kind of surprised that so many people think of the CMP 40Xs as anything more than what they are. They were just rifles purchased by the military as practice rifles. I see plenty of them around for $1000. That seems to be the going rate. I also don't see the historical value. This may just be ignorance on my part, but all it was used for was target practice. What's so historical about that?

I suppose that they are sort of rare because a limited number of them were made, but just because they are rare, doesn't mean that they are that valuable. I guess a collector may appreciate one in good shape and assign his own value to it, but most of the guys that I know that have them sought them out because they were cheaper than a commercial 40X and more readily available. What's really rare is a commercial 40X on the used market.

In any case, if the rifle that we are talking about is in its original form with the number on the bolt matching the serial on the receiver with the original stock, then maybe it may have some value above a "regular" CMP 40X. If it isn't the original bolt and stock, it's just another parts rifle; although it likely shoots lights out like most 40Xs do.

The 40Xs are popular at my range. The guys get them and if they shoot, they drop in a Jewell trigger and leave the rest alone. If it doesn't shoot well enough, they throw a Shilen barrel on it. It's a cheaper route to a benchrest rig than a 54 action Anschutz.
 
#74
Re: Killing a 40x value


I think that the historical part wasn't so much the plain 40X but the ones that were ordered by the USMC. I believe there were roughly 2680 of them that were ordered back in the 50s.
 
#75
Re: Killing a 40x value

I know a little about the 40X rifles and the USMC rifles were made in two lots. Both lots were in the late fifty's and there was less than 3000 made. Orest Michaels, the director for the CMP, has stated that the CMP has sold about 800 of these rifles. You need to know that both Carter and Clinton cut up many 22's when president including 40X's. No one knows how many were destroyed. A mint condition USMC will bring 1800 to 2200 dollars to a collector. An excellent condition rifle is 1300 to 1500. Very few are mint condition as the Marines use most everything they get their hands on. The OP could sell sell his rifle and buy two standard barrel US marked rifles with the money or a US rifle and nice scope or a US rifle and have a smith do the gun work you want with the money. USMC rifles are rare and will increase in value as the CMP is now out of the 40X game. For that matter all Military 40X 22s will now increase in value as the CMP only expects to receive small quantities of 22's now from the Army and those will be a mixture of various types and may only be sold on their Auction page. And for you guys that are flaming the Gun Smith. He has a right to refuse work from anyone and a duty to inform a owner that he may be doing damage to a historical weapon. If the owner still wants to have the work done then he/she has been informed of the consequences. The statement the gun smith has to do the work because you want him to is just retarded. Reminds me of a Mark Twain saving: "The world don't owe you anything, the world was here first". No free man owes you shit or is bond to your will.
 
#76
Re: Killing a 40x value

personally I believe the gunsmith did the right thing. It could be personal or a smart business decision.

Unless he knows you, he doesn't know that you won't try to sue him for diminishing the valuse of the firearm...it happens. This has happend to me/the company I worked for. Even though the customer was told the work would kill any future collectors value, he didn't care...wanted done what he wanted done. Well, the value was dropped and we're getting letters from the attorney, reports to the BBB, I think even an inquary from the States Attorney General. Yea, some people are just...well, you know the type.

I'd suggest keeping the gun as a shooter/collector of your own. If you feel the need to modify it, sell it and get a 700.

You could rebarrel it but that too would diminish the value.

in the end, it's up to you. If the gunsmith doesn't want to do the job, so what, he has that right and shouldn't be faulted for it. Just find someone else.
 
#77
Re: Killing a 40x value

if your not going to part with it then go for it. but just dont kick your self in the butt when you go to sell it and no one wants to pay what you have got into it
 
#78
Re: Killing a 40x value

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: seanh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you feel the need to modify it, sell it and get a 700.

You could rebarrel it but that too would diminish the value.</div></div>
Huh? Did Remmy come out with a .22LR 700 (obviously besides the 40XB)? And barring jacking up the barrel, how would re-barreling diminish the value if it can be put back to original?
 
#79
Re: Killing a 40x value

Master Blaster I might have a solution to your small problem. I have A Goverment 40XB in Average shape I will trade you and add some boot. This way you can build what you want and still have some funds for accessories. The gun I am talking about is currently in the Rifles for sale section.
 
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