Sidearms & Scatterguns Kimber Royal II

[paulL01]

Hi guys,
Just wandering if anyone here owns one or has owned one and, what's yalls opinion of them?
I would imagine that like most run of the mill 1911's or about any hammer fired semi auto pistol there's prolly gonna a be a little bit or substantial amount of creep in the trigger ( any creep for me is substantial lol)
Or does Kimber make a creep free 1911?
At any rate, I really appreciate any info I can get gang. Thanx much in advance

 

[Odysseus1911]

Don't buy anything made by Kimber. Do some reading; the reasons why will become obvious fairly quick.

For Kimber money, the brand you want is Dan Wesson. You can search the entire internet and you will not find a single negative review or a single unhappy owner.

As far as a zero creep trigger, you may get lucky with an assembly line gun, but even with a DW, most likely, it'll have a tiny touch of creep. It's light years better than the best trigger on any other semi-auto platform, so it doesn't bother most people. But if you want a perfect trigger, save up for a Wilson Combat/Nighthawk/Ed Brown, or send your gun to a well-reviewed 1911 smith for a trigger job.

Good luck in your search!

 

[Aftermath]

Kimber....
I have an Ultra Crimson Carry II. It's a decent pistol but it has a plastic mainspring housing. It's also a real PITA to even field strip without their special little tool or a paper clip. I own a Remington Rand 1911A1 National Match marked for the USArmy, a couple of SIG 1911's (LOVE), a few old ParaOrdnances in various magazine capacity and barrel length and a Colt Officer model. Only the fucking Kimber requires a tool other than the ten God gave me to field strip.
I own a Kimber Mountain Ascent in 280 Ackley Improved. It is the least accurate rifle in the stable and I have some vintage stuff!

Kimber....
The most over-rated firearm on Earth.

 

[paulL01]

Wow. Thanx fellas
Kimber has gotten that bad eh?
Well, I totally agree that I'd take a Dan Wesson for the same money.

 

[diggler1833]

Having owned a Kimber and still owning a Dan Wesson, the DW is by far better...but entry level Kimbers are far less expensive than entry level DWs. It is a bit more apples to oranges there. However if I remember correctly, the Royal II is just a plain Jane Kimber with better finish...you still get all of the wonderful MIM parts and plastic MSH Kimber is famous for.

Trying to stay with a beautiful blue finish, its going to be hard to find anything that isn't considerably more expensive than the Royal II. Some Colts are done well, but owning five of their custom shop 1911s ill say that the DW is fit better and built without MIM parts unlike the Colts. Colt seems to have their MIM game on point so to say...but when that price tag starts reaching over $1,500 I expect a little more for a gun I'm going to keep. Most of my Colts are investments.

If you can do without the beautiful blue finish, Finding something like a Dan Wesson Heritage or Pointman will give you everything else that you're looking for, along with a huge smile. They really are great for the money.

 

[Odysseus1911]

Or you could do what I did for my wife's EDC: She picked out a Colt Combat Elite. I scrapped the internals and replaced everything with parts from Wilson Combat's Bulletproof line (forged tool steel parts). I used a Harrison Design Tru-Radius sear jig, a trigger track stone, and some other goodies to get the trigger pull perfect, but you don't have to do any of that as the trigger pull was already night and day better than factory just from dropping the new parts in. Total investment was somewhere around $1500-1600.

 

[paulL01]

Or you could do what I did for my wife's EDC: She picked out a Colt Combat Elite. I scrapped the internals and replaced everything with parts from Wilson Combat's Bulletproof line (forged tool steel parts). I used a Harrison Design Tru-Radius sear jig, a trigger track stone, and some other goodies to get the trigger pull perfect, but you don't have to do any of that as the trigger pull was already night and day better than factory just from dropping the new parts in. Total investment was somewhere around $1500-1600.View attachment 7617904

Wow. Thats very nice.
Thank you.

 

[CK1.0]

Kimber's aren't really 1911's. Swartz safety = no bueno.

Swartz and 80's Series both should be avoided IMO.

Besides a number of other reasons, I look at it this way: why bother buying one of, if not, THE most iconic handguns ever made if it's been altered from it's original/intended design and isn't really the "real thing" anymore...

JMHO but you can find a Dan Wesson or plenty of other good 70-Series 1911's that could use a good home... and if their triggers aren't exactly as you like, with a 70's Series you can change it easily and make it just as you desire.

BTW/FWIW, dollar for dollar your money will not go further for a good 1911 than with an older STI (before they turned into Staccato and got all tacticool bruh)... if/when you can find them they're worth a hard look.

 

[diggler1833]

Or you could do what I did for my wife's EDC: She picked out a Colt Combat Elite. I scrapped the internals and replaced everything with parts from Wilson Combat's Bulletproof line (forged tool steel parts). I used a Harrison Design Tru-Radius sear jig, a trigger track stone, and some other goodies to get the trigger pull perfect, but you don't have to do any of that as the trigger pull was already night and day better than factory just from dropping the new parts in. Total investment was somewhere around $1500-1600.View attachment 7617904

The fact that your wife chose to carry a full size 1911 wins cool points. My wife's EDC is just taking me along...

I love the two tone guns. I've been trying to find a two tone Colt SCG that has the front strap checkering, but haven't had any luck. If I didn't just buy a NIB Diamondback in 22LR (Colt) this week I'd be putting in an order for a Les Baer Concept III. I like the fact that I can take out the idiot mark when I inevitably put it there. I'll get one by the end of the year.

 

[paulL01]

A lot of love for DW
But, what about a Springfield TRP?
Does it compare with DW?

 

[Heretoimproveforhunting]

i got out of my kimbers, to get a single ed brown. have never looked back. as others have mentioned save up and go for a higher end offering

 

[Odysseus1911]

A lot of love for DW
But, what about a Springfield TRP?
Does it compare with DW?

It's a decent gun. And certainly a good bit better than Springfield's standard offerings, but I don't think it's quite to the level of DW, honestly.

Just to be thorough, I would class 1911 manufacturer quality like this:

Bottom tier (avoid)
Rock Island
Para
Magnum Research
anything made in third world countries

Tier 4 (decent quality assembly line guns)
Colt
Springfield
S&W
Remington

Tier 3
Dan Wesson (assembly line but nearly semi-custom fit/finish)
Les Baer (technically semi-custom)

Tier 2 (semi-custom)
Wilson Combat
Nighthawk
Ed Brown
Guncrafter

Tier 1
Full house custom build by a renown smith

This is just my opinion as a 1911 hobbyist.

 

[Choid]

Kimber's aren't really 1911's. Swartz safety = no bueno.

Swartz and 80's Series both should be avoided IMO.

Besides a number of other reasons, I look at it this way: why bother buying one of, if not, THE most iconic handguns ever made if it's been altered from it's original/intended design and isn't really the "real thing" anymore...

JMHO but you can find a Dan Wesson or plenty of other good 70-Series 1911's that could use a good home... and if their triggers aren't exactly as you like, with a 70's Series you can change it easily and make it just as you desire.

BTW/FWIW, dollar for dollar your money will not go further for a good 1911 than with an older STI (before they turned into Staccato and got all tacticool bruh)... if/when you can find them they're worth a hard look.

In general, this is correct. I had a Jason Burton Series 80 gun, that was beautiful, but even he could not massage that particular example into anything I really liked shooting. On the other hand, I have a gun John Harrison built with a Series 80, and it is phenomenal. As good as most of the Series 70s I have. And a Garthwaite that is somewhere in between. The point being, that it seems that some Series 80 guns can be made great, and others not so much. Each of the above smiths certainly did their best to get a great trigger. On the other hand, every series 70, or pre series 80, pistol I have had built, but a wide range of smiths including the guys above, has a great trigger. I can explain to you the difference between the mechanisms, and why 80s should suck, but not why only some do.

I definitely cosign the above about Wilson parts, though be careful because the safeties are both geared around their weird radius. Harrison parts are great as well. You can basically drop them in any modern FGC and have a custom feeling pistol. I do disagree about a little of the ranking above. Colt and Springfield are both far better than S&W and Remington, especially as base guns.

 

[Odysseus1911]

I do disagree about a little of the ranking above. Colt and Springfield are both far better than S&W and Remington, especially as base guns.

I agree with that, although I don't think Remington or S&W are really bad enough to go into the bottom tier nor are Colt and SA good enough to be classed with DW.

 

[Choid]

I agree with that, although I don't think Remington or S&W are really bad enough to go into the bottom tier nor are Colt and SA good enough to be classed with DW.

Yeah, it is mainly their suitability as base guns that separates them. Can't imagine asking a guy like Ted Yost to customize a Remington 1911. Colt Series 70 are actually really good guns these days, they just have zero features that anybody wants. The Wiley Clapp guns are pretty nice straight out of the box, but yeah, not as good as DW.

 

[Choid]

I have to say these threads make me nostalgic for shooting my 1911s. I stopped loading for them when the small primer cases came into circulation, as it was just too much of a pain in the ass, and I never really liked 9mm 1911s as much, so I would load for 9, for other pistols, and buy 45. Now I can barely bring myself to shoot my stash of 45. lol. Good talk, though.

 

[diggler1833]

A lot of love for DW
But, what about a Springfield TRP?
Does it compare with DW?

I think it's close, but not quite there. I'm also only speaking with about 200 rounds through a TRP Operator under my belt, so take my comparison with a grain of salt.

The DW is going to cycle smoother off the bat...sort of like a close second that has a couple thousand rounds through it. Accuracy wise I don't think you'll see a difference...and if you do then its time to upgrade to a $4K + 1911 because you're a hell of a shot (occasonal lemons excluded).

I don't own a TRP, but can't see why anyone would crap on one for the price point they're at. IMO, the TRP Operator is very close in fit/finish to a Colt M45A1 CQBP out of the custom shop...maybe the Colt is a touch more accurate with a bit more barrel fitting, but I am not going to notice shooting outside of a Ransom rest.

My two Colt O1070CQBP CS pistols have triggers 'fitted' that would make you think they weren't.

 

[paulL01]

My pet peeve is creep in a trigger.
I just cannot tolerate it.
Once you have a good trigger with no creep, it's impossible not to notice creep on another pistol. And, it's absolutely surprising the number of people that don't know the difference between take up and creep.

 

[CK1.0]

My pet peeve is creep in a trigger.
I just cannot tolerate it.
Once you have a good trigger with no creep, it's impossible not to notice creep on another pistol. And, it's absolutely surprising the number of people that don't know the difference between take up and creep.

Yep, once you become a trigger snob there's no going back... and usually leads to owning at least one sweet 1911.

Really, any well made 70-series 1911 can be made to be badass as far as trigger is concerned, fire-control is completely replaceable. Doesn't have to be expensive either: I put together a $400 Rock Island Armory Tactical with $130 EGW/Koenig fire-control/hammer and NOS STI trigger for a buddy of mine a couple years ago and without really doing anything it had a beautiful glass-rod 2lb trigger and was about as nice of a shooting 1911 as anything out there at any price.

Honestly, the fire control that comes on most middle-of-the-road 1911's kind of sucks, even on some $1200-1500 guns. A good hammer and sear, and then having the patience to keep taking them apart and reassembling them again until you've got the sear-spring bent just right goes a long way and is a lot of the magic.

 

[paulL01]

Man, I really like the DW ECP 45 Auto
But it's just crazy.....nothing out there. Found one on GB and, it's like $1769 Buy it now.
I think these went for $1550 before you know what.
Goodness, think I just need to cool my jets for right now.

 

[Choid]

As long as the pins are in the right place, which they almost always are, a good trigger kit, Harrison, Cylinder and Slide etc, and a C&S light sear spring, and you pretty much don't need to do any work. In fact, many of the big name smiths I've been around literally drop trigger groups in these days. Some don't, but a lot do. It is hard to justify not when edm trigger packs are so consistent, safe and good.

 

[CK1.0]

This is the way:

 

[Odysseus1911]

So, drop in trigger modules for 1911s are now a thing. From Nighthawk:

 

[Cascade Hemi]

My pet peeve is creep in a trigger.
I just cannot tolerate it.
Once you have a good trigger with no creep, it's impossible not to notice creep on another pistol. And, it's absolutely surprising the number of people that don't know the difference between take up and creep.

This tends to be what I hear from people that don't shoot much pistol. You should be able to clear a 7 yard dot drill with a stock Glock. Your tuned trigger, for the most part, is worthless on the clock.

 

[Choid]

This tends to be what I hear from people that don't shoot much pistol. You should be able to clear a 7 yard dot drill with a stock Glock. Your tuned trigger, for the most part, is worthless on the clock.

Well, you don't fuck a face either, but pretty faces are a whole lot nicer to fuck.

 

[Odysseus1911]

This tends to be what I hear from people that don't shoot much pistol.

I've heard it more often from people who shoot pistol a lot than from novices.

You should be able to clear a 7 yard dot drill with a stock Glock.

Yeah, you should. Cause that drill is beginner level difficulty.

Your tuned trigger, for the most part, is worthless on the clock.

Spoken like someone who's never owned anything nicer than a stock glock. I've put close to 6 thousand rounds through my Wilson alone, and I compete in speed steel, falling plate, and IDPA. You couldn't be more wrong.

Invest in something with a nice trigger, put a thousand rounds through it doing drills, and then get the timer out. I think you'll be surprised.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I've heard it more often from people who shoot pistol a lot than from novices.



Yeah, you should. Cause that drill is beginner level difficulty.



Spoken like someone who's never owned anything nicer than a stock glock. I've put close to 6 thousand rounds through my Wilson alone, and I compete in speed steel, falling plate, and IDPA. You couldn't be more wrong.

Invest in something with a nice trigger, put a thousand rounds through it doing drills, and then get the timer out. I think you'll be surprised.

I put 40K rounds through my limited gun in two years. A seven yard dot drill is pretty base level, "trigger snobs" generally struggle with it regardless of the gun and none of them are ever novices (according to them).

IDPA is still around? LOL

 

[diggler1833]

This tends to be what I hear from people that don't shoot much pistol. You should be able to clear a 7 yard dot drill with a stock Glock. Your tuned trigger, for the most part, is worthless on the clock.

You make a good point here about fundamentals without actually saying the word. I agree with you in the necessity of proficiency in trigger manipulation, but some people spend 99% of their pistol shooting trying to just enjoy themselves, and a good trigger is no different than a fine whiskey or a cruise in a well tuned sports car.

Don't blast me yet...

As a former service rifle and pistol competitor, I really disliked the loss of camaraderie and enjoyment of shooting as we all focused more on high scores. I also really disliked how every conversation with a fellow shooter turned into an inevitable polite dick measuring contest about how you shot at the last match/best score/capabilities etc... Which is what the last 4-5 posts are turning this thread into after one *cough* directed "you aren't doing it right" statement.

If I want to work on defensive skills, I'll use a carry or HD gun and get a littlework in. The other 90% of my shooting is with my family, or I'm just trying to relax. It sure is nice to use a gun in those situations where I'm not struggling against the design of a firearm to get the best out of it.

To each their own. Best of luck to all.

 

[Odysseus1911]

I put 40K rounds through my limited gun in two years.

So you come into a thread about 1911s to tell people that they should be able to do entry-level drills with a stock Glock and a tuned trigger is worthless on the clock, but you put 20,000 rounds/year through your race gun? Sure, sounds legit.

 

[CK1.0]

While I do agree it's the Indian not the arrow, it's ok to like things that are nice, and sweet triggers are nice.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

You make a good point here about fundamentals without actually saying the word. I agree with you in the necessity of proficiency in trigger manipulation, but some people spend 99% of their pistol shooting trying to just enjoy themselves, and a good trigger is no different than a fine whiskey or a cruise in a well tuned sports car.

Don't blast me yet...

As a former service rifle and pistol competitor, I really disliked the loss of camaraderie and enjoyment of shooting as we all focused more on high scores. I also really disliked how every conversation with a fellow shooter turned into an inevitable polite dick measuring contest about how you shot at the last match/best score/capabilities etc... Which is what the last 4-5 posts are turning this thread into after one *cough* directed "you aren't doing it right" statement.

If I want to work on defensive skills, I'll use a carry or HD gun and get a littlework in. The other 90% of my shooting is with my family, or I'm just trying to relax. It sure is nice to use a gun in those situations where I'm not struggling against the design of a firearm to get the best out of it.

To each their own. Best of luck to all.

We're on the same page.

 

[paulL01]

This tends to be what I hear from people that don't shoot much pistol. You should be able to clear a 7 yard dot drill with a stock Glock. Your tuned trigger, for the most part, is worthless on the clock.

That's actually very funny....
Son, you've probably NEVER shot a PPC Match have you?
Let's see how you do with that shitty glock trigger at the 50 yard line under the CLOCK.
Clear 7 yards..........lol....
Now, I've went and ran my mouth.
But, someone who jumps on a thread like this and pretty much says that someone hasn't shot a lot of pistol and then proceeds to talk about a Glock and 7 yards.......lol, that's just a little too much....
Seriously son, if you really wanna see if you can shoot worth a damn - not talkin about steel plates at 7 yards, go grab a wheel gun and run a PPC course.

 

[paulL01]

Anyways back on topic
Guys, I think I'm gonna buy a Dan Wesson ECP unless yall have a good reason for me not to
I'm also considering a Valkyrie
Thanx fellas, I really appreciate the help

 

[CK1.0]

Anyways back on topic
Guys, I think I'm gonna buy a Dan Wesson ECP unless yall have a good reason for me not to
I'm also considering a Valkyrie
Thanx fellas, I really appreciate the help

ECP has an aluminum frame (Valkyrie too I think)... which isn't necessarily bad, just unnecessary unless you plan on carrying it. Steel frame is more traditional and better if it's going to be more of a range gun vs a carry piece.

1911's with aluminum frames is kind of "a thing" along the same lines as 70-series vs 80-series/swartz... in most ways they're just fine, but in a few ways they are a little suspect. Personally, with an aluminum frame the only thing I'd be worried about would be stripping a grip bushing, it happened to me once and was a bitch, and that was my last aluminum frame 1911.

Last 1911-snob thing I'll add: beware any 1911 shorter than 5"... Due to their design, the shorter a 1911 gets, the less reliable they become... all the springs in the gun (recoil, mainspring, magazine spring) have to be playing nice-nice together or things go to shit quickly, and it gets exponentially harder to maintain that state of "tune" with the shorter guns, the range/window where everything works together well and in concert in those is small. IIRC Browning never designed any of the shorter variants, only the classic 5" Government-sized model. FWIW the commander-sized guns are usually fine, but I'd never tell anyone to go smaller than that even for a range toy, they tend to be annoyingly unreliable even when nothing is on the line.

 

[paulL01]

Thank you, ceekay1

 

[Choid]

ECP has an aluminum frame (Valkyrie too I think)... which isn't necessarily bad, just unnecessary unless you plan on carrying it. Steel frame is more traditional and better if it's going to be more of a range gun vs a carry piece.

1911's with aluminum frames is kind of "a thing" along the same lines as 70-series vs 80-series/swartz... in most ways they're just fine, but in a few ways they are a little suspect. Personally, with an aluminum frame the only thing I'd be worried about would be stripping a grip bushing, it happened to me once and was a bitch, and that was my last aluminum frame 1911.

Last 1911-snob thing I'll add: beware any 1911 shorter than 5"... Due to their design, the shorter a 1911 gets, the less reliable they become... all the springs in the gun (recoil, mainspring, magazine spring) have to be playing nice-nice together or things go to shit quickly, and it gets exponentially harder to maintain that state of "tune" with the shorter guns, the range/window where everything works together well and in concert in those is small. IIRC Browning never designed any of the shorter variants, only the classic 5" Government-sized model. FWIW the commander-sized guns are usually fine, but I'd never tell anyone to go smaller than that even for a range toy, they tend to be annoyingly unreliable even when nothing is on the line.

This really depends. Wilsons are not my favorite guns. They are nice for sure, but not always my cuppa. That said, they seem to have no problem getting the smallest 1911s around to run perfectly. A lot of the problems you mention here have been solved as the 1911 has evolved over the last decade and a half or so. Aluminum framed guns either have ramped barrels, or in 45 they will have a steel feed ramp. They aren't as pleasant to shoot as a steel gun, but they are not delicate like they used to be. I think you can buy a lot of 1911s with much less worry than you could in the past.

 

[CK1.0]

This really depends. Wilsons are not my favorite guns. They are nice for sure, but not always my cuppa. That said, they seem to have no problem getting the smallest 1911s around to run perfectly. A lot of the problems you mention here have been solved as the 1911 has evolved over the last decade and a half or so. Aluminum framed guns either have ramped barrels, or in 45 they will have a steel feed ramp. They aren't as pleasant to shoot as a steel gun, but they are not delicate like they used to be. I think you can buy a lot of 1911s with much less worry than you could in the past.

Yep, it does depend, for what Wilson charges for their guns, they better work. Had a couple, not a fan.

The better makers make it work more often though for sure, but in general they're always a little sketchier than a full-size from what I've seen over the years. I think the thing with the little guys is: when the springs are all fresh, and they're running great, they're great, but if the recoil or magazine springs weaken a little or take a set, they suddenly go to crap.

 

[Choid]

Yep, it does depend, for what Wilson charges for their guns, they better work. Had a couple, not a fan.

The better makers make it work more often though for sure, but in general they're always a little sketchier than a full-size from what I've seen over the years. I think the thing with the little guys is: when the springs are all fresh, and they're running great, they're great, but if the recoil or magazine springs weaken a little or take a set, they suddenly go to crap.

CCO is the smallest I feel comfortable going, and it does have a commander length slide, which is important because the dwell time is the issue. An officer grip is not a problem because the length of the grip does very little. They are comfy to carry.