Looking at the Kimber Warrior, and the Kimber Covert, but a friend recommended Nighthawk Customs GRP. the Nighthawk retails for almost $1k more, is there really any difference to justify that price? Also any thoughts on Springfield's TRP?
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Suppressors Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
- Thread starter magic647
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Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
This is like comparing a Corvette to a yugo. Go smack yourself.
If you're concerned about price primarily, a custom pistol isn't for you. Just buy something and shoot it.
Unless you have money to burn, buying a custom pistol when you have no clue what you want is just a complete waste of money.
This is like comparing a Corvette to a yugo. Go smack yourself.
If you're concerned about price primarily, a custom pistol isn't for you. Just buy something and shoot it.
Unless you have money to burn, buying a custom pistol when you have no clue what you want is just a complete waste of money.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
Is there really a need for that attitude? Im asking the question to learn, this isn't meant to be a place for dicks like you to find random threads to put people down about their questions so you can feel good about yourself.
Didn't your mother ever teach you, if you have nothing nice to say, keep your damn mouth shut?
Is there really a need for that attitude? Im asking the question to learn, this isn't meant to be a place for dicks like you to find random threads to put people down about their questions so you can feel good about yourself.
Didn't your mother ever teach you, if you have nothing nice to say, keep your damn mouth shut?
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
I have a few Kimbers and a Nighthawk T3 - and yes, it is worth the extra $$.
In my humble opinion, as an owner and user, Kimber has slipped a bit in the past few years, their old "custom shop" stuff was great, their new stuff isn't quite up to the price they ask.
Nighthawk makes a great gun, very tight, very accurate, great attention to detail.
The Nighthawk if you might need it in a life-threatening situation, the Kimber if you just want to screw around at the range and throw lead.
As said above, these 2 aren't in the same league.
I have a few Kimbers and a Nighthawk T3 - and yes, it is worth the extra $$.
In my humble opinion, as an owner and user, Kimber has slipped a bit in the past few years, their old "custom shop" stuff was great, their new stuff isn't quite up to the price they ask.
Nighthawk makes a great gun, very tight, very accurate, great attention to detail.
The Nighthawk if you might need it in a life-threatening situation, the Kimber if you just want to screw around at the range and throw lead.
As said above, these 2 aren't in the same league.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: magic647</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there really a need for that attitude? Im asking the question to learn, this isn't meant to be a place for dicks like you to find random threads to put people down about their questions so you can feel good about yourself.
Didn't your mother ever teach you, if you have nothing nice to say, keep your damn mouth shut?
</div></div>
Good thing I'm not your mother.
A custom pistol is useful for someone who is experienced and knows exactly what bundle of features he wants. He orders the pistol, tells the smith exactly what features he wants and doesn't want, and when it shows up, he doesn't have to modify anything--all the work is done for him.
A factory made pistol like a Kimber is for someone who wants to just go to the store and pick whatever options are offered. A pistolero interested in every minute detail doesn't want a mass-produced pistol.
If you don't know the difference between those two, you want the latter.
Kimber has really slipped in recent years compared to my older ones so I'm not sure I'd buy a new one. But there are plenty of others, including STI (my top choice) and the higher end Springfields like the TRP.
In fact, the Springfield TRP is a whole lot of pistol. If I were shopping on a budget, I'd probably get that, or the STI Lawman, rather than reach into a more expensive pistol.
Or I'd just buy an STI Spartan and have the front strap checkered for $200...because it'd be the same thing.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: magic647</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there really a need for that attitude? Im asking the question to learn, this isn't meant to be a place for dicks like you to find random threads to put people down about their questions so you can feel good about yourself.
Didn't your mother ever teach you, if you have nothing nice to say, keep your damn mouth shut?
</div></div>
Good thing I'm not your mother.
A custom pistol is useful for someone who is experienced and knows exactly what bundle of features he wants. He orders the pistol, tells the smith exactly what features he wants and doesn't want, and when it shows up, he doesn't have to modify anything--all the work is done for him.
A factory made pistol like a Kimber is for someone who wants to just go to the store and pick whatever options are offered. A pistolero interested in every minute detail doesn't want a mass-produced pistol.
If you don't know the difference between those two, you want the latter.
Kimber has really slipped in recent years compared to my older ones so I'm not sure I'd buy a new one. But there are plenty of others, including STI (my top choice) and the higher end Springfields like the TRP.
In fact, the Springfield TRP is a whole lot of pistol. If I were shopping on a budget, I'd probably get that, or the STI Lawman, rather than reach into a more expensive pistol.
Or I'd just buy an STI Spartan and have the front strap checkered for $200...because it'd be the same thing.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
I have a Nighthawk Custom GRP Recon, and its by far the most accurate pistol I own. And compared to my friend's Kimber (I think its a TLE 2), its far and away a better pistol. The machining is better, the finish is better, the trigger is better, and it just shoots better. Plus, if you're interested in a light, I'm pretty sure that buying a GRP gets you a good deal on a Surefire X300. If you have the money and want a great pistol to keep for a long time, get the Nighthawk.
I have a Nighthawk Custom GRP Recon, and its by far the most accurate pistol I own. And compared to my friend's Kimber (I think its a TLE 2), its far and away a better pistol. The machining is better, the finish is better, the trigger is better, and it just shoots better. Plus, if you're interested in a light, I'm pretty sure that buying a GRP gets you a good deal on a Surefire X300. If you have the money and want a great pistol to keep for a long time, get the Nighthawk.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good thing I'm not your mother.</div></div>
Thats the damn truth....I am sure he feels likewise.
I have had good service from several Kimbers I and II and I still would buy a Series I now. That said, I would take a Nighthawk, Wilson Combat, Les Baer, STI, etc any day vs one of the newer Kimbers and they are worth the extra money. You are just not comparing the same class of pistol.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good thing I'm not your mother.</div></div>
Thats the damn truth....I am sure he feels likewise.
I have had good service from several Kimbers I and II and I still would buy a Series I now. That said, I would take a Nighthawk, Wilson Combat, Les Baer, STI, etc any day vs one of the newer Kimbers and they are worth the extra money. You are just not comparing the same class of pistol.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
Check out the post from firemarshall27 on 1911's. That will give you plenty to look at and ponder....IF you want to spend $$$$
DZ did have some good points - I think I sharted after reading the first sentence....
Budget - tough to beat the TRP. You might just get one that a master truly worked over like a good friend did....(trigger that is). Fusion arms? not sure if anyone has one of their units. Rock River Arms if you could find one nowadays. You could've had a Yo-Bo 1* a bit ago for $1600 or so, now they're gone too.
Or - buy a Springer GI or Loaded and have a GSmith do a custom PKG to it to your specs. just something to ponder. Steve Morrison's down time was 2-4 weeks of late....(Mars Guns - great guy to work with..)
Most 1911 Smith's like Springers and Colts. They tend to be the norm, or used to be.
Check out the post from firemarshall27 on 1911's. That will give you plenty to look at and ponder....IF you want to spend $$$$
DZ did have some good points - I think I sharted after reading the first sentence....
Budget - tough to beat the TRP. You might just get one that a master truly worked over like a good friend did....(trigger that is). Fusion arms? not sure if anyone has one of their units. Rock River Arms if you could find one nowadays. You could've had a Yo-Bo 1* a bit ago for $1600 or so, now they're gone too.
Or - buy a Springer GI or Loaded and have a GSmith do a custom PKG to it to your specs. just something to ponder. Steve Morrison's down time was 2-4 weeks of late....(Mars Guns - great guy to work with..)
Most 1911 Smith's like Springers and Colts. They tend to be the norm, or used to be.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
If I recall correctly, some of the employees from Wilson Combat left the company a few years back and formed Nighthawk?
As for the Kimber, I believe they are now built on a series 80 frame/slide set up. More parts to deal with and I do not like the safety system of the 80 series. Kimber went through an embarassing time a few years ago when they built all these external extractor guns and they had to replace all the slides, because they did not run right. Customers demanded a new slide with the standard extractor.
Most highend GSmiths like the 70 sereis to work on. Simple JBM design.
Jerry
If I recall correctly, some of the employees from Wilson Combat left the company a few years back and formed Nighthawk?
As for the Kimber, I believe they are now built on a series 80 frame/slide set up. More parts to deal with and I do not like the safety system of the 80 series. Kimber went through an embarassing time a few years ago when they built all these external extractor guns and they had to replace all the slides, because they did not run right. Customers demanded a new slide with the standard extractor.
Most highend GSmiths like the 70 sereis to work on. Simple JBM design.
Jerry
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
I would look for a used semi-custom (Nighthawk, Ed Brown, Les Baer, Wilson, etc.). You would be surprised the extent to which you can close the gap in price between a new Kimber and used semi-custom.
I have had kimbers, Nighthawks, Browns, and other 1911s (including a full custom Yost). Personally, I'd pass on a new Kimber (their prices have climbed quite a bit over the years and I will spare you the details of my troubles with the Kimbers I had) in favor of a used Baer (one omy favorites) or Nighthawk.
Another option would be to get a less expensive 1911 to start with (STI, S&W, etc.).
I would look for a used semi-custom (Nighthawk, Ed Brown, Les Baer, Wilson, etc.). You would be surprised the extent to which you can close the gap in price between a new Kimber and used semi-custom.
I have had kimbers, Nighthawks, Browns, and other 1911s (including a full custom Yost). Personally, I'd pass on a new Kimber (their prices have climbed quite a bit over the years and I will spare you the details of my troubles with the Kimbers I had) in favor of a used Baer (one omy favorites) or Nighthawk.
Another option would be to get a less expensive 1911 to start with (STI, S&W, etc.).
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
The only thing Custom about a Kimber is the word on the slide, they are full on production weapons with IMHO an inflated price, Nighthawks are hand built customs, when it comes to 1911s options are almost endless, so why not buy a custom pistol if you can afford one.
The only thing Custom about a Kimber is the word on the slide, they are full on production weapons with IMHO an inflated price, Nighthawks are hand built customs, when it comes to 1911s options are almost endless, so why not buy a custom pistol if you can afford one.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
I have never owned a Night Hawk but I own a couple of early Kimbers. The early Kimber were solid, no nonsense, well built pistols. That doesn't ring true today. Kimber uses so many MIM parts that I would not have a KII pistol.
Go with a custom. It can be those mentioned above but I will thow out the Ed Brown name too. Ed has been building them for a very long time and he knows what he is doing.
Also, the idea to shop around for a used one is great. You can save a ton of cash that way.
I have never owned a Night Hawk but I own a couple of early Kimbers. The early Kimber were solid, no nonsense, well built pistols. That doesn't ring true today. Kimber uses so many MIM parts that I would not have a KII pistol.
Go with a custom. It can be those mentioned above but I will thow out the Ed Brown name too. Ed has been building them for a very long time and he knows what he is doing.
Also, the idea to shop around for a used one is great. You can save a ton of cash that way.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: magic647</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looking at the Kimber Warrior, and the Kimber Covert, but a friend recommended Nighthawk Customs GRP. the Nighthawk retails for almost $1k more, is there really any difference to justify that price? Also any thoughts on Springfield's TRP? </div></div>
I used to have the same question. After working here for 4 years the answer is yes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: magic647</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looking at the Kimber Warrior, and the Kimber Covert, but a friend recommended Nighthawk Customs GRP. the Nighthawk retails for almost $1k more, is there really any difference to justify that price? Also any thoughts on Springfield's TRP? </div></div>
I used to have the same question. After working here for 4 years the answer is yes.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
Having used both nighthawks and kimber's customer service lets just say I'd buy another nighthawk, kimber couldn't pay me to own another one of their guns after two bad experiences.
That aside, there are a lot of happy kimber owners, and some of their guns run really well, some of them don't and the customer service reports from kimber are not impressive. That said, there are also customers that have problems with nighthawk, wilson, brown, baer etc. So they can and do all screw them up now and then. The hope is the more you pay the less often they screw up and the better it's handled. Also frankly the nighthawk should be better, it's twice the price. Is it twice the gun over a kimber, that's subjective, a lot of 1911's over the $1000 price point are reliable and well fit. After that the differences are more subtle there's a diminishing returns factor. The difference between a $500 1911 and a $1500 1911 is pretty significant, the different between a $1500 1911 and a $2500 1911 less so on average anyway.
The TRP used to be one of the best deals out there when it was priced in the $1100-1200 range, not sure what they can be found for online but locally they are selling in the $1700 range which is starting to get into the used prices if you keep your eye out for a wilson cqb/brown etc. So I personally wouldn't buy a TRP for $1700, but in the 1300-1400 range it's a pretty nice unit out of the box.
Like others have said, handle a lot of them, see what you like, shoot them if you can. They all handle a bit different, some have different trigger guard cuts and grip safeties and cuts. Brown for me is particularly noticeably different compared to wilson/nighthawk. Find what you really want, and don't worry about resale, even if you have to have something built or tweaked. Nighthawk is really good about taking one of their base models and doing custom mods at the customers request.
Having used both nighthawks and kimber's customer service lets just say I'd buy another nighthawk, kimber couldn't pay me to own another one of their guns after two bad experiences.
That aside, there are a lot of happy kimber owners, and some of their guns run really well, some of them don't and the customer service reports from kimber are not impressive. That said, there are also customers that have problems with nighthawk, wilson, brown, baer etc. So they can and do all screw them up now and then. The hope is the more you pay the less often they screw up and the better it's handled. Also frankly the nighthawk should be better, it's twice the price. Is it twice the gun over a kimber, that's subjective, a lot of 1911's over the $1000 price point are reliable and well fit. After that the differences are more subtle there's a diminishing returns factor. The difference between a $500 1911 and a $1500 1911 is pretty significant, the different between a $1500 1911 and a $2500 1911 less so on average anyway.
The TRP used to be one of the best deals out there when it was priced in the $1100-1200 range, not sure what they can be found for online but locally they are selling in the $1700 range which is starting to get into the used prices if you keep your eye out for a wilson cqb/brown etc. So I personally wouldn't buy a TRP for $1700, but in the 1300-1400 range it's a pretty nice unit out of the box.
Like others have said, handle a lot of them, see what you like, shoot them if you can. They all handle a bit different, some have different trigger guard cuts and grip safeties and cuts. Brown for me is particularly noticeably different compared to wilson/nighthawk. Find what you really want, and don't worry about resale, even if you have to have something built or tweaked. Nighthawk is really good about taking one of their base models and doing custom mods at the customers request.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
Not to be a dick, but if you have to ask, you're probably not yet ready for a custom gun such as the Nighthawk. I'm not intending to demean you in any way or anything like that.
The plain fact of the matter is, until you've spent enough time, shooting/ killing/ competing or whatever, with a given tool to know what benefits you and what doesn't, then there isn't much point in spending the dough on a Nighthawk or any other custom gun.
That said, what you will get out of a Nighthawk over a Kimber is:
-Possibly more accuracy (I've seen some damned accurate box stock Kimbers.)
-Dehorning without the gun looking like it was stuffed in a tumbler for 16 times longer than it needed.
-Slide fit that typically feels better than ball bearings
-Awesome customer service
-Gun built to your specs
-Non MIM parts, very important to many serious aficianados
-A stainless barrel (as I recall) where most Kimber's are carbon steel and prone to corrosion/rust
-A trigger that someone actually paid attention to before sending the gun out.
And that's most of what I can think of at the moment.
I'd say someone is ready for a custom when they can consistently use all of the accuracy a production gun has to offer AND can appreciate the custom firearm for what it is, a physical embodiment of one of hell of a lot work.
The final telling point is when you can pick them both up and actually feel and see the differences. Then, you are truly ready grasshopper.
Until then, spend the extra dough on ammo and training so you can get good enough to appreciate a custom gun.
Not to be a dick, but if you have to ask, you're probably not yet ready for a custom gun such as the Nighthawk. I'm not intending to demean you in any way or anything like that.
The plain fact of the matter is, until you've spent enough time, shooting/ killing/ competing or whatever, with a given tool to know what benefits you and what doesn't, then there isn't much point in spending the dough on a Nighthawk or any other custom gun.
That said, what you will get out of a Nighthawk over a Kimber is:
-Possibly more accuracy (I've seen some damned accurate box stock Kimbers.)
-Dehorning without the gun looking like it was stuffed in a tumbler for 16 times longer than it needed.
-Slide fit that typically feels better than ball bearings
-Awesome customer service
-Gun built to your specs
-Non MIM parts, very important to many serious aficianados
-A stainless barrel (as I recall) where most Kimber's are carbon steel and prone to corrosion/rust
-A trigger that someone actually paid attention to before sending the gun out.
And that's most of what I can think of at the moment.
I'd say someone is ready for a custom when they can consistently use all of the accuracy a production gun has to offer AND can appreciate the custom firearm for what it is, a physical embodiment of one of hell of a lot work.
The final telling point is when you can pick them both up and actually feel and see the differences. Then, you are truly ready grasshopper.
Until then, spend the extra dough on ammo and training so you can get good enough to appreciate a custom gun.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 338LM_IMP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am banned so good by all.</div></div> We could care less... See yah!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 338LM_IMP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am banned so good by all.</div></div> We could care less... See yah!
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
The Nighthawk is a clear choice over a Kimber. You are clearly ready for a custom pistol!
There are other choices that stand out over the Kimber but all cost much more than a Kimber. Buy the best quality and you don't need to look back.
The Nighthawk is a clear choice over a Kimber. You are clearly ready for a custom pistol!
There are other choices that stand out over the Kimber but all cost much more than a Kimber. Buy the best quality and you don't need to look back.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
Thanks all for the input. I appreciate all the honesty. Right now I am leaning towards the Springfield TRP, but I still am considering the GRP. Based on what I heard/read about Kimber, it just isnt what it used to be.
Thanks again.
Thanks all for the input. I appreciate all the honesty. Right now I am leaning towards the Springfield TRP, but I still am considering the GRP. Based on what I heard/read about Kimber, it just isnt what it used to be.
Thanks again.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
I carry a Springfield Armory Champion Operator for a off duty weapon. It's a model below the TRP. Its a hell of a gun especially at the deal I got it at, for $600.00. The NIght Hawk is however even better. I have not had a chance to shoot one, but I have been able to drool while holding one. While at my local gun shop I have heard a few negatives about Kimbers and thier customer service. I have heard nothing but postive about Springfield Armory customer service and you can bet Night Hawk will also take car of you post purchase. Buy once cry once, let us know what you end up with.
I carry a Springfield Armory Champion Operator for a off duty weapon. It's a model below the TRP. Its a hell of a gun especially at the deal I got it at, for $600.00. The NIght Hawk is however even better. I have not had a chance to shoot one, but I have been able to drool while holding one. While at my local gun shop I have heard a few negatives about Kimbers and thier customer service. I have heard nothing but postive about Springfield Armory customer service and you can bet Night Hawk will also take car of you post purchase. Buy once cry once, let us know what you end up with.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: magic647</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks all for the input. I appreciate all the honesty. Right now I am leaning towards the Springfield TRP, but I still am considering the GRP. Based on what I heard/read about Kimber, it just isnt what it used to be.
Thanks again.
</div></div>
Remember, Asking us how we like each pistol is like asking us how our shoes will fit your feet.
I shoot a thousand rds a month and have consolidated my pistols to Glocks and Kimbers. I have had about a dozen Kimbers in my Day and received good service from them all. Some I had to tune a bit, which is admittedly frustrating, but often times necessary. I now carry either the Ultra or Pro Super Carry. Series one guns, no firing pin stop. I think any of the Custom gun makers has sent out a gun that needed touched up. All of them.
I am however in the market for a railed 1911 as are you and I am currently looking at the Kimber Gold Combat RL. A pricey gun, yes with MIM parts, but they can be replaced if need be. I may also buy a Kimber TLE II and upgrade it. What I am looking for is a frame with the rail.
I would ask if you really need a gun with a rail or just want one? My point is, custom pistols are like custom golf clubs. You have to smack a lot of balls with the off the shelf clubs before you know what to ask the Master to do to your custom gun.
Spend a grand or so on a Kimber (Hell or on a TRP if they make one with a rail I just do not know). Shoot the piss out of it and see what customization you really need and THEN spend your money. Until then, IMHO, you are a new driver with a NASCAR and no idea of how to get the most performance out of what you paid for.
Downzero cannot help himself. But under all that arrogance he exudes to hide whatever fears he has, he normally has some cogent comments to make.
I really wish you guys would stop bickering here. It is, well, you know, I have said it before.....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: magic647</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks all for the input. I appreciate all the honesty. Right now I am leaning towards the Springfield TRP, but I still am considering the GRP. Based on what I heard/read about Kimber, it just isnt what it used to be.
Thanks again.
</div></div>
Remember, Asking us how we like each pistol is like asking us how our shoes will fit your feet.
I shoot a thousand rds a month and have consolidated my pistols to Glocks and Kimbers. I have had about a dozen Kimbers in my Day and received good service from them all. Some I had to tune a bit, which is admittedly frustrating, but often times necessary. I now carry either the Ultra or Pro Super Carry. Series one guns, no firing pin stop. I think any of the Custom gun makers has sent out a gun that needed touched up. All of them.
I am however in the market for a railed 1911 as are you and I am currently looking at the Kimber Gold Combat RL. A pricey gun, yes with MIM parts, but they can be replaced if need be. I may also buy a Kimber TLE II and upgrade it. What I am looking for is a frame with the rail.
I would ask if you really need a gun with a rail or just want one? My point is, custom pistols are like custom golf clubs. You have to smack a lot of balls with the off the shelf clubs before you know what to ask the Master to do to your custom gun.
Spend a grand or so on a Kimber (Hell or on a TRP if they make one with a rail I just do not know). Shoot the piss out of it and see what customization you really need and THEN spend your money. Until then, IMHO, you are a new driver with a NASCAR and no idea of how to get the most performance out of what you paid for.
Downzero cannot help himself. But under all that arrogance he exudes to hide whatever fears he has, he normally has some cogent comments to make.
I really wish you guys would stop bickering here. It is, well, you know, I have said it before.....
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
There is a TRP with a rail. It has a bull barrel. It's called the "TRP Operator."
The TRP (any TRP) has machine-cut, 20 LPI front strap checkering that tends to be very sharp. This is a feature that I personally really like (my Kimber has 30 LPI and it's sharp, but it could be sharper---I like a good grip).
Ten years ago, a "Kimber vs. custom gun" thread would have been a great discussion. In the 90s, Kimber brought things to the market that totally changed how 1911s are sold today. They showed the gun market that you can get what are usually "custom" features on a mass-produced gun. They also showed us the caveats of some manufacturing process. This allowed the custom gunsmiths to claim that there parts were superior (bar stock parts, no MIM, etc), whereas it allowed Kimber to offer a nice gun with the goodies (beavertail, checkering, magwells, rails, adjustable sights, etc.) at a price only a few hundred more than a GI style 1911.
Nowadays, plenty of manufacturers, even Taurus, are offering these features on $6-800 guns. Thank Kimber for that.
It is surprising to me that companies like Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, etc., sell so many guns. Mostly they go to rich people who are collectors and want a nice gun, and that's fine. But a guy like most of the people posting in this thread, if he was going to spend $3000 on a pistol, would want it 100% custom, where he picked the parts--all of the parts. Wilson/Ed Brown etc., sell a lot of guns to people who have no clue what they want, and would honestly be better off buying a Springfield Loaded, or maybe a TRP if they had to spend a few hundred more, or even a Taurus for that matter. For them, having a more "refined" gun does nothing but subtract from their bank account.
I do think it's a shame that companies like Kimber and Springfield (and even more so, S&W) don't offer a few options on their guns through some sort of custom ordering process that doesn't add a lot of price to the gun. I think there's a huge market out there selling to shooters who don't want to pay for and don't need a full-custom gun, but want the option to spec their sights, beavertail, want some factory trigger work etc. Because local gunsmiths can have a lukewarm reputation, too, it'd be on a product that they could warranty from the factory.
I know my list of features that I want on a 1911 are all pretty common, but to get that bundle on a pistol from the factory, you're looking at $13-1400, plus a swap of at least the front sights and grips.
An STI Spartan with the front strap checkered 20 LPI, a full trigger job done including squaring/shortening the hammer hooks, cutting the sear relief angle, etc., a Dawson front sight and magwell, ISMI springs, a good set of sharp grips, and a hard chrome finish would be pretty unbeatable, and probably last 50,000+ rounds before it'd need anything.
For competition shooting outside of the more mainstream divisions, the guns need to be more well-fitted to the shooter (slides lightened, weight added or removed, etc., sometimes even a shorter or longer gun) so those will never be made cookie-cutter. Single stack division, on the other hand, is really straight forward, and it's a shame that we don't see more. Competition shooting is exploding, though, and as it does, I think more shooters who don't compete will see the benefits of many of the features that those of us who do compete, demand from our guns.
There is a TRP with a rail. It has a bull barrel. It's called the "TRP Operator."
The TRP (any TRP) has machine-cut, 20 LPI front strap checkering that tends to be very sharp. This is a feature that I personally really like (my Kimber has 30 LPI and it's sharp, but it could be sharper---I like a good grip).
Ten years ago, a "Kimber vs. custom gun" thread would have been a great discussion. In the 90s, Kimber brought things to the market that totally changed how 1911s are sold today. They showed the gun market that you can get what are usually "custom" features on a mass-produced gun. They also showed us the caveats of some manufacturing process. This allowed the custom gunsmiths to claim that there parts were superior (bar stock parts, no MIM, etc), whereas it allowed Kimber to offer a nice gun with the goodies (beavertail, checkering, magwells, rails, adjustable sights, etc.) at a price only a few hundred more than a GI style 1911.
Nowadays, plenty of manufacturers, even Taurus, are offering these features on $6-800 guns. Thank Kimber for that.
It is surprising to me that companies like Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, etc., sell so many guns. Mostly they go to rich people who are collectors and want a nice gun, and that's fine. But a guy like most of the people posting in this thread, if he was going to spend $3000 on a pistol, would want it 100% custom, where he picked the parts--all of the parts. Wilson/Ed Brown etc., sell a lot of guns to people who have no clue what they want, and would honestly be better off buying a Springfield Loaded, or maybe a TRP if they had to spend a few hundred more, or even a Taurus for that matter. For them, having a more "refined" gun does nothing but subtract from their bank account.
I do think it's a shame that companies like Kimber and Springfield (and even more so, S&W) don't offer a few options on their guns through some sort of custom ordering process that doesn't add a lot of price to the gun. I think there's a huge market out there selling to shooters who don't want to pay for and don't need a full-custom gun, but want the option to spec their sights, beavertail, want some factory trigger work etc. Because local gunsmiths can have a lukewarm reputation, too, it'd be on a product that they could warranty from the factory.
I know my list of features that I want on a 1911 are all pretty common, but to get that bundle on a pistol from the factory, you're looking at $13-1400, plus a swap of at least the front sights and grips.
An STI Spartan with the front strap checkered 20 LPI, a full trigger job done including squaring/shortening the hammer hooks, cutting the sear relief angle, etc., a Dawson front sight and magwell, ISMI springs, a good set of sharp grips, and a hard chrome finish would be pretty unbeatable, and probably last 50,000+ rounds before it'd need anything.
For competition shooting outside of the more mainstream divisions, the guns need to be more well-fitted to the shooter (slides lightened, weight added or removed, etc., sometimes even a shorter or longer gun) so those will never be made cookie-cutter. Single stack division, on the other hand, is really straight forward, and it's a shame that we don't see more. Competition shooting is exploding, though, and as it does, I think more shooters who don't compete will see the benefits of many of the features that those of us who do compete, demand from our guns.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
I would never tell someone new to 1911s to start with a something like a nighthawk
Why?
Because they are so expensive and for that kind of money you should know.. I mean really know what you want. Get a Springfied or Kimber or whatever first.. Keep it for a while, shoot it a few dozen times, know the animal first. Learn what you like about it and what you don't. Then, and if, you think you should go to something else go for it.
I've had 5 1911s, a while ago I was concidering a custom. Then I came accross a TRP Operator and honestly I felt and still feel no need to step up from there. I just agree with the gun so well I can't even think of a way I would change it.
My 2 cents
I would never tell someone new to 1911s to start with a something like a nighthawk
Why?
Because they are so expensive and for that kind of money you should know.. I mean really know what you want. Get a Springfied or Kimber or whatever first.. Keep it for a while, shoot it a few dozen times, know the animal first. Learn what you like about it and what you don't. Then, and if, you think you should go to something else go for it.
I've had 5 1911s, a while ago I was concidering a custom. Then I came accross a TRP Operator and honestly I felt and still feel no need to step up from there. I just agree with the gun so well I can't even think of a way I would change it.
My 2 cents
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
Kimber's are quite descent handguns; built for quite some time now..
NH Customs are <span style="font-style: italic">in a different league</span> then the Kimber's certainly...
Yes there are vast differences between the 2 & it'd be <span style="font-style: italic">quite</span> likely to sink allot of additional funds into the Kimber once you handle another
of the higher end 1911's like the NHC for instance.
I myself am an Ed Brown guy from way back, I don't personally care so much for factory built 1911's w/ large & over-bearing font's/ names/
logo's emblazoned on the slides... Well.. I DO have a Mushy part in my head though for Colt's... Hmmm...
All this however, is just <span style="font-style: italic">my</span> humble & personal opinions in the matter.
Kimber's are quite descent handguns; built for quite some time now..
NH Customs are <span style="font-style: italic">in a different league</span> then the Kimber's certainly...
Yes there are vast differences between the 2 & it'd be <span style="font-style: italic">quite</span> likely to sink allot of additional funds into the Kimber once you handle another
of the higher end 1911's like the NHC for instance.
I myself am an Ed Brown guy from way back, I don't personally care so much for factory built 1911's w/ large & over-bearing font's/ names/
logo's emblazoned on the slides... Well.. I DO have a Mushy part in my head though for Colt's... Hmmm...
All this however, is just <span style="font-style: italic">my</span> humble & personal opinions in the matter.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gunfixer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well.. I DO have a Mushy part in my head though for Colt's... Hmmm...
All this however, is just <span style="font-style: italic">my</span> humble & personal opinions in the matter. </div></div>
Good to know I'm not the only one. Also partial to slides marked just 1911-A1 as in the case of the Springfield Mil-Spec and some of the short lived Rock River production.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gunfixer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well.. I DO have a Mushy part in my head though for Colt's... Hmmm...
All this however, is just <span style="font-style: italic">my</span> humble & personal opinions in the matter. </div></div>
Good to know I'm not the only one. Also partial to slides marked just 1911-A1 as in the case of the Springfield Mil-Spec and some of the short lived Rock River production.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
While I agree that someone shouldn't jump from no 1911 experience into a high end 1911, I don't think putting 1000's of rounds through a bone stock base 1911 is going to tell the user what features they want in a $2500 1911. It may make them appreciate the higher quality better, but you have to use a feature to know it's what you want. Sadly with most high end custom handguns/rifles/scopes etc. you have to buy and try to figure it out.
We see that advice a lot for tactical rifles or scopes as well, someone will ask about getting a high end scope or custom rifle and guys will tell them to shoot a base model until they figure out what features they want.
The problem is if you aren't shooting a gun with those features you have no idea if you will like them or not and many times even if you run across one at the range and the owner is nice enough to let you try it out, a couple mags through it won't tell you if you like the fit/features etc. I do agree that if you have no experience with a platform like the 1911 it's better to get experience in it before trying to buy high end or custom, but it won't tell you how you like features that don't come on the gun you are shooting. That's part of the reason why guys go through several high end versions before settling on what they want.
If you don't have a magwell on your 1911, you have no idea if you'll like it, same is true for a bobtail, ambi safety, high grip cuts, etc. etc. While it's true someone with no 1911 experience can't appreciate some of the finer details of a high end 1911 just putting a lot of rounds through a bone stock one doesn't mean your first high end or custom 1911 will be exactly what you want.
While I agree that someone shouldn't jump from no 1911 experience into a high end 1911, I don't think putting 1000's of rounds through a bone stock base 1911 is going to tell the user what features they want in a $2500 1911. It may make them appreciate the higher quality better, but you have to use a feature to know it's what you want. Sadly with most high end custom handguns/rifles/scopes etc. you have to buy and try to figure it out.
We see that advice a lot for tactical rifles or scopes as well, someone will ask about getting a high end scope or custom rifle and guys will tell them to shoot a base model until they figure out what features they want.
The problem is if you aren't shooting a gun with those features you have no idea if you will like them or not and many times even if you run across one at the range and the owner is nice enough to let you try it out, a couple mags through it won't tell you if you like the fit/features etc. I do agree that if you have no experience with a platform like the 1911 it's better to get experience in it before trying to buy high end or custom, but it won't tell you how you like features that don't come on the gun you are shooting. That's part of the reason why guys go through several high end versions before settling on what they want.
If you don't have a magwell on your 1911, you have no idea if you'll like it, same is true for a bobtail, ambi safety, high grip cuts, etc. etc. While it's true someone with no 1911 experience can't appreciate some of the finer details of a high end 1911 just putting a lot of rounds through a bone stock one doesn't mean your first high end or custom 1911 will be exactly what you want.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
I dont always agree with buying something cheap first cause if he can afford the NH at first and is willing to pay the price just get it and he wont have to upgrade later. Also I think higher end stuff is easier to sell cause there are not as many for sale as long as he is not trying to sell it for retail
I dont always agree with buying something cheap first cause if he can afford the NH at first and is willing to pay the price just get it and he wont have to upgrade later. Also I think higher end stuff is easier to sell cause there are not as many for sale as long as he is not trying to sell it for retail
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
My first 1911, after owning SIG's, Glocks, and XD's, is an STI 2011 5" Tactical tweaked out by Brazos Custom.
I, personally, wouldn't consider getting into the 1911 arena any other way. Why settle, just save up and get what YOU want.
I wasn't familiar with the "Buy once, cry once" theory when I ordered it, but it sure does seem appropriate.
My first 1911, after owning SIG's, Glocks, and XD's, is an STI 2011 5" Tactical tweaked out by Brazos Custom.
I, personally, wouldn't consider getting into the 1911 arena any other way. Why settle, just save up and get what YOU want.
I wasn't familiar with the "Buy once, cry once" theory when I ordered it, but it sure does seem appropriate.
Re: Kimber vs Nighthawk Custom
If you want checkering on front strap, get the TRP. IF not, save even MORE money, and get a Loaded Operator!! Cheap front checkering can be had by either a) purchasing skateboard grip-tape and sticking it on. b) purchasing a fits-under-grips textured add-on, I believ Wilson makes it???
If you have money to burn up, by all means get a Nighthawk. Take care of it it'll be an investment. BUT. . . . I think you'd be better served getting let us say a TRP, good holster, mag holder(s), a bunch of extra magazines, and then take a combat handgun course for 2-3 days with the ammo to boot. Then, learn the weapon platform, the nuances, the pros-n-cons through YOUR experience with it. After a year or so, you'll determine if the 1911 is your end-all be-all sidearm and then get a Nighthawk(also a dram of mine!) or try a new weapon platform such as Sig, Glock, Beretta, etc.
Springfield, Nighthawk are both great. I've owned the Springfields, great. I've shot Wilson and N.H., and WOW!!! it's like a machinist's wet-dream! Steel on steel has never been fitted so beautifully!!
Best of luck!
If you want checkering on front strap, get the TRP. IF not, save even MORE money, and get a Loaded Operator!! Cheap front checkering can be had by either a) purchasing skateboard grip-tape and sticking it on. b) purchasing a fits-under-grips textured add-on, I believ Wilson makes it???
If you have money to burn up, by all means get a Nighthawk. Take care of it it'll be an investment. BUT. . . . I think you'd be better served getting let us say a TRP, good holster, mag holder(s), a bunch of extra magazines, and then take a combat handgun course for 2-3 days with the ammo to boot. Then, learn the weapon platform, the nuances, the pros-n-cons through YOUR experience with it. After a year or so, you'll determine if the 1911 is your end-all be-all sidearm and then get a Nighthawk(also a dram of mine!) or try a new weapon platform such as Sig, Glock, Beretta, etc.
Springfield, Nighthawk are both great. I've owned the Springfields, great. I've shot Wilson and N.H., and WOW!!! it's like a machinist's wet-dream! Steel on steel has never been fitted so beautifully!!
Best of luck!
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