Krieger vs. Proof Research CF?

[Strykervet]

16" .223 Wylde in an AR. I know Krieger makes a solid cut rifle barrel, heard good things about PF. Both cost about the same. Want the best barrel I can get for this one, if I can get performance and light weight, why not?

If it matters, it'll be another DMR type rifle with a 2-10x or some such and suppressed with a Saker and ASR mount. I'd like it rugged but I ain't gonna be IMT'ing with it or any shit like that. No mag dumps but I may shoot a few mags quickly here or there.

Which would you get and why?

 

[Huskydriver]

16" .223 Wylde in an AR. I know Krieger makes a solid cut rifle barrel, heard good things about PF. Both cost about the same. Want the best barrel I can get for this one, if I can get performance and light weight, why not?

If it matters, it'll be another DMR type rifle with a 2-10x or some such and suppressed with a Saker and ASR mount. I'd like it rugged but I ain't gonna be IMT'ing with it or any shit like that. No mag dumps but I may shoot a few mags quickly here or there.

Which would you get and why?

Kreiger cuz in this application your saving what a couple oz? I would rather know if I needed to launch lead rapid fire I'm not going to delam my carbon sleeve

 

[Strykervet]

Kinda what I figure but I have zero experience with the CF barrels. If they're best suited for use in a bolt gun, I get it. I'm just ignorant regarding 'em at this point.

All I know is apparently there are two different types, one is a CF wrapped light profile SS barrel (which looks to be what PF does?) the other is a vented CF tube with a thin SS sleeve inside, sorta like an aluminum barreled Smith and Wesson .22. I don't know much about either but I can easily tell I'm not interested in the latter for sure.

Krieger is the safe bet for sure, just don't know if it's the only bet.

 

[Huskydriver]

Kinda what I figure but I have zero experience with the CF barrels. If they're best suited for use in a bolt gun, I get it. I'm just ignorant regarding 'em at this point.

All I know is apparently there are two different types, one is a CF wrapped light profile SS barrel (which looks to be what PF does?) the other is a vented CF tube with a thin SS sleeve inside, sorta like an aluminum barreled Smith and Wesson .22. I don't know much about either but I can easily tell I'm not interested in the latter for sure.

Krieger is the safe bet for sure, just don't know if it's the only bet.

I worked for a cf aerospace company for several years. We made cf barrels for other companies and the sleeve with hole technique is nothing more than a gimmick and for looks.

 

[Merle]

Proof also sales stainless cut rifled AR15 barrels. Midway USA has the 18" rlgs variety in stock now for $459 and free shipping.

Proof Research Barrel AR-15 223 Remington (Wylde) 18 Rifle Length 1 8

Proof Research's steel barrels are produced in-house from double-stress relieved 416R stainless steel. This pre-hardened chromium steel is ideally...

www.midwayusa.com

 

[Genin]

I thought proof carbon barrels were full-auto rated/tested, is it not?

 

[Huskydriver]

I thought proof carbon barrels were full-auto rated/tested, is it not?

I don't care what they certify it for.... Simple matter is most aerospace grade high temp resins can only handle 500 degrees before they start to reach their Tg....a couple mag dumps can easily reach this temp

 

[Fishin6061]

I have a Krieger in my factory KAC LPR Mod 2. Compared to my old Mod 1, it’s a little picky but once I found a load it likes wow. I shot this at 550 over the weekend.

 

[Strykervet]

I think I'll give 'em a call but I wanted to see what you guys with them had to say first.

So I guess the biggest issue is delam then? I mean, both can be shot out fast if you abuse them for sure.

I figure I'll use it about like I used any other SDM rifle --lots of precision shooting with some CQ shit mixed in. El presidente drills. Snap drills. No spendex, no mag dumps. But not really counting or timing or taking temps either. But yeah, I could see myself going through a couple mags relatively quickly, albeit not nearly as fast as I could. I don't know if this makes any sense quantitatively.

But if Krieger and Lilja are good enough for the military in the same or similar roles, it should be fine for me. The only real issue is whether or not the CF would be as good or better.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I think I'll give 'em a call but I wanted to see what you guys with them had to say first.

So I guess the biggest issue is delam then? I mean, both can be shot out fast if you abuse them for sure.

I figure I'll use it about like I used any other SDM rifle --lots of precision shooting with some CQ shit mixed in. El presidente drills. Snap drills. No spendex, no mag dumps. But not really counting or timing or taking temps either. But yeah, I could see myself going through a couple mags relatively quickly, albeit not nearly as fast as I could. I don't know if this makes any sense quantitatively.

But if Krieger and Lilja are good enough for the military in the same or similar roles, it should be fine for me. The only real issue is whether or not the CF would be as good or better.

The carbon is going to walk after 10 rounds, just the nature of the beast. Personally I'd compare apples to apples and be looking at the SS Proof barrels. Proof apparently made some button rifled barrels and they're still out there (way cheaper like $300 for complete AR barrel) so watch out for those and make sure you're not getting one of those. Comparing the SS Proof the the Krieger, both are ultra high quality cut rifled barrels. There's no way you could go wrong with either of them. I had a KAC LPR which had a Krieger and it was a hammer. I've had several Proofs and they're the same, Proofs also tend to be pretty fast but I think that's just the nature of the beast with most 4 groove barrels.

I'd get the Proof for the savings, I just ordered one for $390 shipped the other day.

For the price of the Kriegers I'd get Craddock Bartlein or Rock Creek to get it the way I want it. For $250+ over what you can get the Proofs for though, I'll settle for off the shelf specs.

 

[Strykervet]

So I got the 13" Mlok URX4 tube yesterday, just need a barrel and a gas block to make it a rifle now. I figure I'll probably stick with the Krieger then since I know it and since I'm trying to build a slightly higher end rifle than the Recce rifle I have built around the Lilja Navy barrel (which ain't gonna be an easy endeavor at all, it's damn nice).

Figure I'll flute the lighter profile of the two offered and that'll bring the weight down (do they do dimple fluting, anyone know?). Kinda wonder if this is when I maybe should get the benchtop milling machine I sorta been saving for and DIY that? It doesn't seem that hard to do at all.

 

[Strykervet]

Okay, so another question about PR CF bbl.'s: I plan on either buying a Tac 338 one day (if the prices are still $5xxx) or possibly building one using a Surgeon action, possibly McMillan stock and PF CF barrel. Would this be a proper application of one of these barrels? It'll sport an Elite Iron can FWIW... Any problems with using one of these CF barrels on a .338LM bolt gun?

 

[Huskydriver]

Okay, so another question about PR CF bbl.'s: I plan on either buying a Tac 338 one day (if the prices are still $5xxx) or possibly building one using a Surgeon action, possibly McMillan stock and PF CF barrel. Would this be a proper application of one of these barrels? It'll sport an Elite Iron can FWIW... Any problems with using one of these CF barrels on a .338LM bolt gun?

The main advantage of carbon is weight per strength/ stiffness in this case compared to steel.

Carbon is a terrible conductor of heat in fact in most cases it will act as a insolator trapping the heat in the steel.

Where it shines is on a rifle where absolute weight savings is the goal. A carbon barrel can be 30% lighter and stiffer for a given contour and length of steel. Simply compare the length in carbon with it's muzzle contour compared to an equiv steel barrel and it will considerably lighter.

The longer the tube the more this weight difference will be.

If it was a slow fire rifle that I was humping up down the mountain carbon all day. If this is a pull out the bed of truck direct fire artillery piece or a comp gun, I would stick with steel.

 

[FishinGuns]

You guys realize Proof’s carbon matrix is more conductor than insulator, right? A lot of generalities thrown around in this thread in regard to carbon fiber...

I’ve worked with carbon fiber in my undergrad, been on construction projects that showcased it, I can tell you straight up there is a lot of different properties that are attainable with carbon fiber matrices. Seen it with my own eyes working with a giant test furnace at school (big enough to fit a .gov armored humvee with room to spare - should have seen us using two forklifts to put it in, ha ha ha!). I was a lab assistant at the time, so I can’t divulge the work since it was not my own. Suffice to say .gov was involved and the generalizations spewed forth cover a fraction of what’s out there. And this was 11-12 years ago... I promise technology has only developed further from there. What Proof claims with their carbon is attainable. I’ve seen stuff perform, I’ve seen CF light on fire and vaporize, and many other different iterations in-between. I do also think the CF technology will continue to evolve.

I will freely admit, I don’t use my Proof CF tubes as bullet hoses. I see them as precision oriented options that can sling lead if needed, just not preferred.

 

[Huskydriver]

You guys realize Proof’s carbon matrix is more conductor than insulator, right? A lot of generalities thrown around in this thread in regard to carbon fiber...

I’ve worked with carbon fiber in my undergrad, been on construction projects that showcased it, I can tell you straight up there is a lot of different properties that are attainable with carbon fiber matrices. Seen it with my own eyes working with a giant test furnace at school (big enough to fit a .gov armored humvee with room to spare - should have seen us using two forklifts to put it in, ha ha ha!). I was a lab assistant at the time, so I can’t divulge the work since it was not my own. Suffice to say .gov was involved and the generalizations spewed forth cover a fraction of what’s out there. And this was 11-12 years ago... I promise technology has only developed further from there. What Proof claims with their carbon is attainable. I’ve seen stuff perform, I’ve seen CF light on fire and vaporize, and many other different iterations in-between. I do also think the CF technology will continue to evolve.

I will freely admit, I don’t use my Proof CF tubes as bullet hoses. I see them as precision oriented options that can sling lead if needed, just not preferred.

I said in most cases because I don't know what resin they are using. Do you? I admit I am not an engineer just worked in composites for a time

 

[FishinGuns]

No, I don’t have a clue. Nor do I care! What they claim about their CF is possible, I know that for fact. Pretty simple.

Have they been proven liars and I missed it or something? Only thing I see people bitch about is the cost of the PR CF barrels... or people generically speaking about the properties of CF and extrapolating them to PR’s barrels without hard evidence contradicting their marketing claims. I’m not a guilty until proven innocent kind of person, which is why I thought I would share the fact that there are CF matrices out there that can do what PR claims. That’s the only statement of fact I can share.

 

[Huskydriver]

No, I don’t have a clue. Nor do I care! What they claim about their CF is possible, I know that for fact. Pretty simple.

Have they been proven liars and I missed it or something? Only thing I see people bitch about is the cost of the PR CF barrels... or people generically speaking about the properties of CF and extrapolating them to PR’s barrels without hard evidence contradicting their marketing claims. I’m not a guilty until proven innocent kind of person, which is why I thought I would share the fact that there are CF matrices out there that can do what PR claims. That’s the only statement of fact I can share.

Nope just anecdotal evidence from guys that claim to use them like walking after heating up and having more flex in a bend test than a steel barrel of the same class etc. I have no axe to grind and have a 308 proof carbon barrel for a rig on order I'm going to test for myself this winter compared to a steel barrel.

My experience so far comes from seeing how some carbon barrels were made in house that were not proof barrels. There was no special heat wicking layup and no special high temp resin. Draw your own conclusions there but it has def left me very skeptical of proofs claims

 

[300ATT]

I have been blessed to be able to own and shoot both (in bolt guns). There is no difference in the precision or performance between Krieger or Proof CF barrels when shooting 20+ shot strings in less than two minutes. Both barrels will heat up to the point you cannot touch them without burning your hand. Both will hold their precision and POI. The proof cools off faster and is lighter.

Here is a non-scientific test that I did on a "Go-Lite" match rifle w/proof barrel last year - 30 rounds in approx. 2:15 minutes:

https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...-milehigh-its-a-shooter.6871206/#post-6905582

In a bolt rifle you get some significant weight savings and some "range cred" for the cool carbon fiber look. Other than that it's a wash.

If weight is a consideration (it is to me) ... you might also consider a White Oak SDM barrel ... they shoot lights out and as good as (if not better) than my Kriegers in an AR platform.

 

[300ATT]

FWIW, I can also add that I in the past I had a Christiensen Arms CF barrel in .223 where the POI did indeed walk as it heated up causing more than a 1 MOA shift after about 5-6 rounds. This is one of the sources of the rumors that CF barrels walk when they heat up.

I can also report that Proof CF barrels do not change their POI or "walk" as they heat up.

 

[Darqusoull13]

@Strykervet buy the Proof. You know you want it already. Looking awesome is more than enough reason to buy something. If you want to prioritize light weight, specifically toward the muzzle end of the rifle, that's a perfectly reasonable functional point for choosing a CF barrel. Every dude I have talked to that bought a Proof barrel, CF or SS, said it shot very well and they were happy with their purchase. I've had 1, it shot great, I'm getting more.

 

[RyanScott]

Measure proof against a similar weight steel barrel instead of a similar size steel barrel.

 

[morganlamprecht]

I can also report that Proof CF barrels do not change their POI or "walk" as they heat up.

id quit saying this...maybe your small sample doesnt

ive seen more than 1 that do/did

 

[300ATT]

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun ...

@Strykervet buy the Proof. You know you want it already. Looking awesome is more than enough reason to buy something. If you want to prioritize light weight, specifically toward the muzzle end of the rifle, that's a perfectly reasonable functional point for choosing a CF barrel. Every dude I have talked to that bought a Proof barrel, CF or SS, said it shot very well and they were happy with their purchase. I've had 1, it shot great, I'm getting more.

 

[300ATT]

id quit saying this...maybe your small sample doesnt

ive seen more than 1 that do/did

@morganlamprecht my sample size is 10+ and perhaps greater than your sample size of 1+ ... my guess is that if the proof CF barrel walked it was something to do with bedding or the way the gun was put together or goodness, it could have been the shooter (that never happens) - but who knows. Just reporting what I have seen/experienced ... your results may vary.

 

[morganlamprecht]

1+...lol sure thing

it wasnt bedding...and im not guessing

1 was replaced by proof and the replacement was fine...others were on hunting rifles where they wouldnt have high rates of fire so they were left alone

"Proof CF barrels do not change their POI or "walk" as they heat up"

they sure can, just like anything else...

 

[300ATT]

maybe you got a bad barrel that happens once and while also ...

I have seen/shot 10+ rifles with proofs and all I can report is that they did not "walk" or change POI when they got hot.

 

[FishinGuns]

1+...lol sure thing

it wasnt bedding...and im not guessing

1 was replaced by proof and the replacement was fine...others were on hunting rifles where they wouldnt have high rates of fire so they were left alone

"Proof CF barrels do not change their POI or "walk" as they heat up"

they sure can, just like anything else...

Holy shit, a lemon, really!?! They friggen happen man. You said the replacement was fine. Why generalize them stringing hot when the replacement didn’t? Asshole move, Internet Commando...

Lemons fucking happen, bitch about the lemon, not some misguided notion of how all the barrels perform based on a singular lemon.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Holy shit, a lemon, really!?! They friggen happen man. You said the replacement was fine. Why generalize them stringing hot when the replacement didn’t? Asshole move, Internet Commando...

Lemons fucking happen, bitch about the lemon, not some misguided notion of how all the barrels perform based on a singular lemon.

who said it was a singular lemon u idiot? "1+ lol" was laughing at 300att's assumption...that was your proof fan boy assuming...read above, i said ive seen more than 1, and based on the number ive seen walk, out of the number ive shot/tested...its completely possible to have one that walks

he originally said "i can confirm proofs dont walk" and then tried to blame the reason for that idea being out on christiensen to top it off lol nothing i was shooting had cristiensen anywhere on it, weird

he cant confirm that, he can only confirm that the ones hes shot didnt....and im sureeeee he really heat stressed all of them multiple times with various shooters and confirmed anything....im sure...

internet commando haha gold...get out of yalls feels, u fanboy cucks...ill be that asshole tho

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Yup, carbon is not the way to go for an AR barrel. If you get a good one it will hold for 5-10 shots but after 10 she's walking.

If all you're doing is shooting 5 shot groups then you're golden, but if you want to take it to a DMR match and burn down 20, 30, 40+ rounds in a stage... good luck to you.

 

[FishinGuns]

You guys sure must be in a different universe than me. You’re saying steel barrels don’t walk after strings of fire like that either?

Im not into competition shoots, so I have no direct comparable experience for you in that regard. I can tell you, I’ve yet to see a steel barrel consistently lay down lead like that without opening up.

You can call me a fan boy all you want. I have 3 PR CF barreled rifles that are excellent for me. I also have 2 Hodge’s, 5 Noveske CHF tubes, and 2 Criterion CL barrels. I guess I fan boy a lot of stuff... Btw, I think they all have their place and would defend their merits in their respective places I think they are best in.

I replied to this thread with as much info as I am allowed to divulge on the topic of CF. It’s more than your average bear, but I’m no expert, either. I have a sample size of 3 PR CF barreled rifles that are excellent. I also noted in agreement with most, that these barrels’ best attribute is their stiffness to weight. Puff your chest all you want, there’s no fan boy here. I can afford whatever I want...

Btw, I ignored the comment about the supposed “10+” that weren’t his. Pure hearsay, bullshit, holds zero water in my book. I focused on the one lemon he had and was fixed. That matters, it was his actual experience. There are so many variables to AR’s and shooting that I flat out ignore anything somebody references they “know of.” Come on. “My brother-in-law’s cousin’s best friend from preschool shot a .3” 30rd group in 10 minutes with his new PSA Black Friday special.” Oh, ok... That is the real cuck BS is here.

There are about a handful of people on here that I don’t personally know that I can trust to make statements about how other people’s guns shoot. Neither of you two are in that handful.

 

[morganlamprecht]

You guys sure must be in a different universe than me. You’re saying steel barrels don’t walk after strings of fire like that either?

lemme help you

"Proof CF barrels do not change their POI or "walk" as they heat up" <-- what i replied to

they sure can, just like anything else... <-- what i said

that help?

im not an expert on CF either, never claimed to be...im pretty salty at puttin rounds on targets tho and thats easily verifiable because i do compete and am a known quantity

every rifle i spoke of i verified, was present and shot...all the rifles didnt suffer from heat, but some do...workin in close relation to a shop that builds my rifles plus being one of the leads of a rifle club running competitions every month for the last 4 yrs makes a lot of rifles pass by...im asked to troubleshoot things quite a bit

one of them was consistent enough to dope it in between 2 shooters at 2 different range locations....shoot a few rounds at 100, perfect zero, shoot to 1k, perfect dope...gets a little hot, .2-.3 low, dial up .2, impact impact impact...come back to 100, look at that .2 low...let the rifle sit for 10-15 min, come back, right back to zero and original dope to 1k...we did it 2-3x each with both shooters...this rifle had another barrel for it., the steel 243 barrel didnt shift the same fashion...hard to blame the rest of the rifle or the optic lol all in our heads tho im sure

proof carbon barrels can shoot very well, but they aint magic and can suffer heat just like any other barrel

i guess ill ignore the less desirable ones and only talk about the great ones from now on so less feelings are hurt

 

[Steel head]

The carbon/resins I work with are good at transferring heat.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

The issue isn't whether carbon fiber insulates or transfers heat. It does transfer it, but it still heats up. The issue is what the materials are doing as it heats up and when it heats up to a certain point which obviously varies barrel to barrel. The materials obviously are not staying the same and remaining stress free as heat is introduced.

Carbon fiber is not magic nor is it the solution to everything, but there's a few things it does well and it shines there.

Proof definitely has it pretty down pat, but it still isn't the ideal barrel material for long strings of fire.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Never seen a slilnger shooting a CF barrel on the line. I've seen LOTs of Kriegers though.

 

[FishinGuns]

No feelings hurt here.

I sling lead w/CHF double thick chromed barrels. That’s what they are designed for - slinging lead. My HBAR Criterion’s shoot really well too, and I don’t feel bad about getting them hot - which doesn’t really happen either, though. I blast with blasters, I shoot the shooters. There’s always a right tool for the job.

If somebody wants to blast with a Krieger or Proof, more power to them. They’ll just replace it sooner, is all.