Night Vision L3 Insight Light Thermal Weapon Sight AN/PAS-13G(V)1

[SkyPup]

When I was at the 2013 Shot Show checking out the new gear at the L3 booth, I got to handle the new L-3 Thermal AN/PAS-13G(V)1.

http://www.insighttechnology.com/l3-products/light-weapon-thermal-sight-lwts

It looked like a very nice unit with a 640X480 17 micron VOx core that had automatic NUNC as well as internal reticules enabling it to be used as a stand alone thermal scope.

This instrument looked like an excellent clip-on when mated up to an ACOG and I have been trying to find out more information regarding it's use and pricing.

The good folks at LDI that I spoke to told me that it has been only recently been released for commercial civilian use, as previously it had been only Mil & LE.

Their review of it here on video from the Shot Show also specifically mentions this:

http://www.adsinc.com/blog/products/l3-warrior-systems-insight-eotech-2013-shot-show-video-coverage/

My question for all you Mil and LE folks that have used this unit is how did you like it compared to the FLIR T50/T-60/T-70 thermal units?

It seems as though it would be a tough competitor for the upgraded FLIR T-65 with the 640X480 core that I also got to handle at the FLIR booth at the Shot Show....

I am waiting for the upgraded FLIR T-65 to be released to the public and this L3 looks like it would be in close competition with the FLIR.....

 

[Nukes]

What is their product reliability and customer service compared to their competitors? Have they stated a recoil rating for the unit? Any idea how it interfaces with the Leupold CQBSS?

 

[SkyPup]

I hear their service is slow and spotty, their warranty is only one year compared to FLIR's ten years.

With an automatic shuttered NUNC, I am not sure how reliable that would be.

That is the kind of information I was looking for about L3 Insight's thermals, besides anyone with some hand on operational use of the instrument?

 

[SkyPup]

Will be waiting for a comparison review of this nice unit with the new FLIR T-65 with the 640 core, should be quite a close call....

 

[Low_drag]

I was designing the uncooled detectors for DRS until last year, which is L3's competitor, and I think insight was using our Vox detectors. Kind of like Raytheon using our cooled detectors in their systems. Sounds like an oxymoron doesn't it, we would compete for contracts at the system level, then we would sell them detectors at a subsystem level. Anyway, the low warranty life is either due to vacuum life in the detector or the thing doesn't handle gun fire to well. We would test competitors products at the range and destroy them under M4 gun fire. We always had the best detectors and had the most robust designs, but that cost a little more. Lower priced wins contracts rather than works good and last longer. Many military system level FLIR's actually use DRS detectors. We sold some stuff for the civilian market, but it was the scrap pile that wouldn't meet the mil spec test. The mil spec test were rediculously stringent some what. Long story short, short warranty means low confidence in product by company. All of our warranties were for 5 years and that was only due to vacuum life.

 

[SNIPERS4DUMMIES]

Is there any info referring to the amount of time these units can be used for? before the core becomes useless.

 

[Low_drag]

Mechanically speaking, it all depends on the the weapon, how it's mounted, and what caliber. The M4 was the harshest platform we tested on, it saw the most g's when the bolt went back into battery. We tested 300 WM, 338 LM, and 50 BMG, all of which had a suppressors or muzzle brakes and were bolt actions. If you want to increase the detectors longevity or life, then store it in your refrigerator when not in use. That will significantly increase your vacuum life by reducing the outgassing rate, which doubles for every 10C above ambient. When it looses vacuum, the unit is useless.

 

[SkyPup]

I have been using my FLIR T-50 and FLIR T-60 on my SIG 716 7.62mm with no problems.

My concern about the L-3 Thermal AN/PAS-13G(V)1 is that is has an automatic shutter for the NUC which it does on it own, both of my FLIR's have a manual NUC. I had never heard of a military thermal using an automatic NUC before this one, only the handheld thermal scanner employ an automatic NUC on the array?

 

[SNIPERS4DUMMIES]

The vacuum storage makes sense but is there any allotted hours of life expectancy on a thermal unit? Different cores having different estimated longevity or other characteristics? such as my Gen3 MX-10160 night-vision tube is estimated around 10,000 hours of use.
Thanks

 

[SkyPup]

FLIR Thermal VOx microbolometers are warranted by FLIR for ten years.

 

[Low_drag]

The VOx microbolometers are sensitive or opaque to longwave IR. The IR radiation heats them up and changes their electrical resistivity, thus they have to be sealed in a package that has a vacuum inside so the microbolometer doesn't disipate the heat into the surrounding air. The change in electrical resistivity is what tell the electronics what level on the gray scale to make the pixel for the image.

All materials outgass to a certain extent, some more than others. That is why we made the packages or detectors out of metal and ceramic, and sealed with solder or a pinched copper tube. There is a getter material inside the vacuum package that absorpes molecules to maintain the vacuum. Some packages have longer vacuum lifes depending on the volume of vacuum, the internal surface area of the package walls to outgas, and how much getter capacity you designed in. The vacuum lifes got shorter as we kept shrinking the packages for smaller system sizes. The volume and internal surface area doesn't shrink at the same rate. So the larger the package the better the life. I'm talking about the detector inside the scope itself. Gen 1-4 is a totally different technology and has no correleation to IR systems. Placing the scope in a vacuum will do you no good but the refrigerator will.

What's funny about the warranties is that we always had to design something that would last at least five years, but the system and technology would become obsolete in three years and the military would want the latest gen stuff. If you want small, light, and cheap, then you have to give up warranty time. We purchased some FLIR systems and took them apart to see how they were designing their products, they did the same with ours too. I just remember the FLIR systems were always the first to fall apart at the range.

 

[Low_drag]

I didn't really answer your question. Thermal imagers don't really have an operational life, but more like how long the thing will last after it's sealed inside the vacuum. The hotter the environment is, the shorter it'll last. You can turn the thing on and off or keep it on as long as you want and it makes no difference. I believe the Gen 1-4 stuff has phosphorous that eventually runs out and that's why you have the green image and hours of operation. I don't know much about the Gen 1-4 stuff, I was only designing the thermal stuff.

 

[NIGHT VISION INC]

We have several units arriving Mid to end 05-2013, the release was held up due to military obligations . As soon as we get them I will post pics and info above and beyond what the cut sheets from L3 EOTech show.

We are L3 authorized factory distributors offering full line sales and service.

 

[NIGHT VISION INC]

Some factory stock photos.

 

[Shodo]

The L3 LWTS is actually using a DRS detector as both companies teamed up to bid for the US ARMY contract that was won by Raytheon.

The LWTS is a nice piece of technology. We found that it can also be used in front of 12x day scopes (German Schmidt & Bender PMII) without any significant pixelation of the image. We were able to hit targes (1x1m steel) up to 1200m with a .408 Chey Tac.

The LWTS can also be used in front of an red dot sight such as the AIMPOINT.

See some Pictures below:


There is only a minor Sub-MOA shift when the LWTS is mounted in front of a day scope.

Best regards from Germany
Shodo

 

[ThermalSpy]

This is an excellent scope, anyone that knows the CNVD-T, IWNS, MTM, and all Insight products know this company makes the best thermal scopes out there, the new LWTS is absolute best quality all around!

 

[Shodo]

It's amazing how small that thing is thanks to the 17micron FPA. You can use it on assault rifles or sniper rifles.

 

[SpaceGoD]

Shodo, thanks a ton for the info about mounting in front of day scopes. I tried to find info on that for 2 weeks awhile back to no avail. It's good to hear that the 640 core will let you hit things in excess of 1000 yards since a 338lm is one of the rifles I will be using.

Is there anything you didn't like about having it in front of high power optics or things I should be aware of before purchasing one specifically for this?

 

[Shodo]

What I figured putting the LWTS in front of high power optics is that everything comes down to the quality of the optics itself.

If you use a very cheap scope in combination with the LWTS (we had people doing that) you will run into pixelation issues. But if you use a decent scope we were able to engage targets at 12x optical zoom. Being still able to identify and distinguish targets clearly.
What I found when using the LWTS it also helps jacking up the brightness of the display rather than the brightness of the thermal image itself. A bright display will also prevent pixelation to a certain level. What I also like to use is the rubber tube of an CNVD-LR to connect the LWTS and my scope. As you see on the picture.
Also a fun fact if you use tracer ammunition you can clearly see the bullet drop in thermal. That is very interesting to watch.
My favorite combination is to have a clip-on thermal with a decent day scope rather than having a stand-alone thermal weapon sight on my weapon.
Also make sure that you have a good mount for the LWTS on your weapon and that you have an exact optical axis between the day scope and the LWTS. It literally comes down to mm accuracy of the optical axis. This you have it down, there will be only sub-MOA shifts even at ranges beyond 300m. We had a group shift with an .308 SigSauer SSG300 at 300m at only 2,32cm while using the LWTS in front of the Schmitt & Bender PM II.
Have a good weekend.

 

[SpaceGoD]

Thanks a bunch for the info shodo. I was curious how much of a difference the optical axis made because I've heard people say as long as it's within the objective it doesn't really matter all that much. I was under the impression that it wasn't terribly important as long as the thermal could adjust its image in line with the crosshairs of the day optic.

The tracer ammo thing is pretty cool as well, I had never thought of that. One of my friends manufacturers explosives and has been playing around with tracer compounds so a match grade tracer would be pretty impressive at long ranges.

I'm also curious what the differences are between this and the flir t70/75 since the map for the flir is so much higher. The specs on them look pretty identical.

 

[whiskeypapa82]

L3 LWTS AN/PAS-13G thermal scope video

I was just forwarded this video of the l3 lwts an/pas-13g scope from spi

I cant wait to get my hand on mine. ANTICIPATION



happy hunting

 

[deersniper]

If you want to increase the detectors longevity or life, then store it in your refrigerator when not in use. That will significantly increase your vacuum life by reducing the outgassing rate, which doubles for every 10C above ambient. W

I knew I read this somewhere from someone that sounded knowledgable then y’all made fun of me when I asked about it

 

[jeffl838]

I knew I read this somewhere from someone that sounded knowledgable then y’all made fun of me when I asked about it

Man, I'd love to dive into that statement more if low_drag is still active.

By ambient, does that mean if my thermal is already at 100 degrees Fahrenheit, that if I keep it at 100 degrees, there should be no increase in outgassing? Or is ambient referring to STP? I'll store my thermals in the fridge if it'll make it last longer - just don't want to make it worse if it's actually warming/cooling that increases outgassing.

 

[CTM1]

Man, I'd love to dive into that statement more if low_drag is still active.

By ambient, does that mean if my thermal is already at 100 degrees Fahrenheit, that if I keep it at 100 degrees, there should be no increase in outgassing? Or is ambient referring to STP? I'll store my thermals in the fridge if it'll make it last longer - just don't want to make it worse if it's actually warming/cooling that increases outgassing.

He has not posted since Feb 14, 2015

 

[SGT Fish @ChevTec Group]

I was designing the uncooled detectors for DRS until last year, which is L3's competitor, and I think insight was using our Vox detectors.

Did you know John Werner?

 

[Jim Out]

So, in this necro-thread we have:

Low_drag

www.snipershide.com

Last seen Feb 13, 2015

Shodo

www.snipershide.com

Last seen Mar 27, 2014
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/members/shodo.85218/follow
and.........

NIGHT VISION INC

www.snipershide.com

Last seen Wednesday at 11:38 PM
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/members/night-vision-inc.85073/follow
NIGHT VISION INC said:



........I'm thinking we better ask some of the other guys here that sell thermal or better yet manufacture the stuff.

All materials outgass to a certain extent, some more than others. That is why we made the packages or detectors out of metal and ceramic, and sealed with solder or a pinched copper tube. There is a getter material inside the vacuum package that absorpes molecules to maintain the vacuum. Some packages have longer vacuum lifes depending on the volume of vacuum, the internal surface area of the package walls to outgas, and how much getter capacity you designed in. The vacuum lifes got shorter as we kept shrinking the packages for smaller system sizes. The volume and internal surface area doesn't shrink at the same rate. So the larger the package the better the life. I'm talking about the detector inside the scope itself. Gen 1-4 is a totally different technology and has no correleation to IR systems. Placing the scope in a vacuum will do you no good but the refrigerator will.

Max? Vic? Buelher?

Can anyone comment on the "keep the thermal in the fridge" issue?

I am curious as to what "ambient temperature" means when talking "microbolometer vacuum offgassing", any takers?