Night Vision L3 LWTS vs M18 640

TestnDoc

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Feb 23, 2012
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Pensacola, FL
The wife is out of town, so I thought I would go out on the back porch and play around with my M18(that's what we nerds do). Not an ideal thermal night, warm with high humidity. Looked through the M18 on white hot and everything was washed out, went to black hot and it was a little better. I decided to pull out my L3 LWTS for grins, not expecting much difference.....was I wrong. The LWTS showed amazing images in both white and black hot modes! I did not expect this at all......here are some crummy iPhone pics, that don't really depict the real difference in images......Anyone use or have the L3 MTM? As a disclaimer, I am not a shareholder in either company, but I do own a lot of Google, which split today..:)
A63B335A-1FCF-48E8-B28E-941341503EFE.jpg


M18 white hot
DDA0A4B9-E32D-497D-88F7-A50AF0377471.jpg


M18 black hot
641FFE72-0DB2-4155-AFE3-A07831D2AF21.jpg


LWTS white hot
2A5DDFC8-716C-4175-8858-C0BC0F163A6C.jpg


LWTS black hot
B78A1DDB-588E-4C04-BDF6-D271AC6ED304.jpg
 
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Looks good. How much did you pay for the LTWS?

I have an M18 and I agree with your assessment - it could benefit from a software upgrade, the image is washed out more of then than not. If you enter manual mode (hold stick left) adjusting the brightness and contrast really breaks the image out. So I know it's capable of better.
 
That DRS core with the L3 Software BABY ! ! !

Ok I have both an MTM and 640 M18. Question for both of you? How insanely stiff is your M-18's objective to turn? We are working on a fix for that! In addition we are tightening up the eyepiece so it does not turn so easily. I like the M18s 640 resolution but the stiff assed objective is no fun. As for performance, here in the dry mountainous west it does good. Get it someplace humid and you are constantly in the futzy manual mode messing with it. The MTM? Not so much. You have to calibrate an MTM fairly often but then again same same with the M-18. Color pallets on the M-18? Meh... I rarely if EVER actually use them. An MTMs eyepiece stomps the M-18! At shot I got to look through the new 640 MTM and I really want one of those! Bucks though.

So all In all the LWTS is liked better than the venerable M-18?
 
Acht Mein Gott!!!

Try turning on DDE instead of linear mode next time in the FLIR M-18. Talk about FLIR DDE software technology baby, it is freakin' AWESOME!

As for the color palletes, if you don't know how to use them they are not any good for you, however once you learn to use them properly they are OUTSTANDING!
 
The M-18 photos, unfortunately, all show operation in straight linear thermal mode....most to the time I only use DDE in the conditions which you described, but it depends if I am utilizing the color palletes or not, or just using B/W like the LWTS is stuck in.

What mode is the LWTS in?
 
That DRS core with the L3 Software BABY ! ! !

Ok I have both an MTM and 640 M18. Question for both of you? How insanely stiff is your M-18's objective to turn? We are working on a fix for that! In addition we are tightening up the eyepiece so it does not turn so easily. I like the M18s 640 resolution but the stiff assed objective is no fun. As for performance, here in the dry mountainous west it does good. Get it someplace humid and you are constantly in the futzy manual mode messing with it. The MTM? Not so much. You have to calibrate an MTM fairly often but then again same same with the M-18. Color pallets on the M-18? Meh... I rarely if EVER actually use them. An MTMs eyepiece stomps the M-18! At shot I got to look through the new 640 MTM and I really want one of those! Bucks though.

So all In all the LWTS is liked better than the venerable M-18?

The objective is very stiff on my M18, but is tight on my LWTS also.
Color pallets are very cool...but last night changed my thinking..
If I could only have one unit, it would be the LWTS, as it is more versatile. However, the M18 is phenomenal when it is cold and low humidty, but last night was an eye opener for me.

A 640 MTM?? When are they due out and price point? I occasionally run across used 320 MTMs for sale, but am reluctant to buy used. How difficult is it to find a new MTM?
 
The M-18 photos, unfortunately, all show operation in straight linear thermal mode....most to the time I only use DDE in the conditions which you described, but it depends if I am utilizing the color palletes or not, or just using B/W like the LWTS is stuck in.

What mode is the LWTS in?

SkyPup, I didnt take any pics through the M18 with DDE because they looked the same to my old eyes. The LWTS doesnt really have any modes, except to can turn on and off the ACG(automatic gain control), and of course clipon and stand alone. The LWTS pics were taken in clipon mode with ACG on. ACG defaults to on eveytime you power up. Im not knocking the M18 at all, please understand...it is fantastic when humidty is low and/or cold weather...
 
I know, I have old eyes as well.....

I just wanted to point out that the M-18 photos are in strict linear mode and not DDE mode when being compared to the LWTS.

What camera are you using for taking the through the ocular photos as the LWTS photo does not appear to be in focus? An I-Phone?

Personally, I don't see much of any difference between the through the lens photos, but it is quite difficult to compare units based on what you see on the internet, as you know I know...
 
I know, I have old eyes as well.....

I just wanted to point out that the M-18 photos are in strict linear mode and not DDE mode when being compared to the LWTS.

What camera are you using for taking the through the ocular photos as the LWTS photo does not appear to be in focus? An I-Phone?

Personally, I don't see much of any difference between the through the lens photos, but it is quite difficult to compare units based on what you see on the internet, as you know I know...

Yes, I was using the iPhone, trying to focus is not easy for an old guy. These photos dont really show how dramatic the difference was. The most dramatic difference was with white hot, where the LWTS image was better. There was less of a difference with black hot, but the LWTS had the edge. Again, I posted this because I was quite surprised with what I saw.
 
My wife is out of town at a dog show for a few days, I'll try to get some through the microbolometer pics this weekend too!

I have the I-phone attachment for the M-18 but it takes mostly sucky photos through the ocular.

I really like to use one of my better digital cameras to take any "real" photos through the ocular as they are much more distinct and representative of real-time size, depth, FOV, etc. when used in the 50mm lens setting so that things are really 1:1.

My least favorite mode with thermals is white hot, I mostly use black hot for the increased contrast and definitive outline and/or color palettes.
 
How insanely stiff is your M-18's objective to turn?

Blister forming stiff! Yes, the objective on mine is so stiff that blisters form from adjusting the focus.

The objective also acts as a heat sink and gets concerningly hot after prolonged use, not hot enough to blister just hot enough to be startling.

An MTMs eyepiece stomps the M-18! At shot I got to look through the new 640 MTM and I really want one of those! Bucks though.

I don't really consider the ocular on the M18 to even qualify as what I consider to be a decent ocular, the eye relief is non existent. It is so bad that unless one enjoys smearing some Ophthalmic or Ky gel on the ocular and mashing it against their cornea, the corners of the display will be cutoff. The 'eye relief' really is that bad, I can't imagine how anyone uses it with glasses.

Not sure why FLIR didn't go with the ANVIS/PVS-14 ocular like they did on the M24 or at least something with decent eye relief. Mashing the ocular into ones eye socket just to see the entire display is just not acceptable.
 
Loving your pics TestnDoc! Does going from stand-alone mode to clip-on mode affect the image other than moving the pertinent indicators (battery, AGC, etc) closer to the center so as to visible through a magnified optic?
It does not effect the image at all, except, as you observed the mode indicators are moved more peripherally. Its a true 640 at 1x and the image is phenomenal.
 
My LWTS clarity is as TestDoc's is. It is by far the best I have looked thru and used. I have not looked thru or used the T-70 so cannot compare there.

I have old eyes and when I use mine in the stand alone mode the picture appears at its best. When I use it as a clip on behind my 4X ACOG the picture clarity is still exceptional bujt not quite as good as when used as a stand alone. But as I said, I have old eyes.

Nice pics TestDoc.
 
[MENTION=2747]Mirage[/MENTION]:
I'm not on here to "sell" I'm here to battle on which rifle scope is best!!!

That may be the case but any interaction with your organization has involved a lot of sales puffery. Website, emails, videos all feel like a gimmick to me. This is my opinion. Perhaps I just feel that having a professional experience with a company seems less like a scam or used car buying experience.

Consider my post as customer feedback and not bashing you or the company.
 
That may be the case but any interaction with your organization has involved a lot of sales puffery. Website, emails, videos all feel like a gimmick to me. This is my opinion. Perhaps I just feel that having a professional experience with a company seems less like a scam or used car buying experience.

Consider my post as customer feedback and not bashing you or the company.
ThermalSpy and SPI are top notch in terms of customer service and having products available to purchase. You make not like his posts, but he does deliver.
 
ThermalSpy and SPI are top notch in terms of customer service and having products available to purchase. You make not like his posts, but he does deliver.

True Dat!

I just got three new SPI DVRs and a repaired SPI DVR that I ripped the cable off by accident in the mayhem when six coyotes charged me on my stand....
 
But, even more important, I will hook up the I-Phone to the awesome FLIR M-18 and FLIR T-70 to take some pics tonight too!

We don't want TestnDoc to be the only one to wear down the batteries on his thermals......lol
 
We are planning a major shoot out in about ten days when we will spend a couple of non-stop days night blasting, I mean hunting, I will need those DVRs so thanks a BUNCH!!! Although they will be hooked up to FLIR equipment, all four of them! ha...
 
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The new movie Jurassic Park ( Jurassic World ) will have a scene with the L3 LWTS, also the SPI M5, and the Insight MTM head mounted units , they said they wanted the real deal military thermals,
so we are gladly shipping Universal the equipment to Kauai soon!!! Movie comes out 2015.

That's cool..

Too bad they didn't have a flir t-70 with wide FOV. I'm sure a dinosaur is gonna eat their ass because they don't have 1/2x.

Any bets they'll use predator color for the thermal if shown in movie.
 
Here are a couple of T-70 through the instrument pics (no ACOG or ELCAN just the unit) at 0.5X, 1.0X, and 2.0X magnifications.

It is 175 yards laser measured to the oak tree with my game cam attached to it.

They were taken in linear thermal mode, not DDE. About 60*F out, clear no fog.


T70%20BLK%20half.jpg



T70%20BLK%20One.jpg



T70%20BLK%20Two.jpg
 
I think the image in the L3 unit looks better in most pictures, but I can certainly see where the 0.5x FOV would be beneficial when hunting hogs or coyotes. I think if that were my primary use I would go with the FLIR and take a small hit in image quality. I don't think the difference is drastic enough in most cases to override the ability to have a much larger field of view.
 
I think the image in the L3 unit looks better in most pictures, but I can certainly see where the 0.5x FOV would be beneficial when hunting hogs or coyotes. I think if that were my primary use I would go with the FLIR and take a small hit in image quality. I don't think the difference is drastic enough in most cases to override the ability to have a much larger field of view.

When you are in the pitch dark at night hunting dangerous animals (or humans for that matter) FOV is your friend because if you cannot see it you cannot get it and it can get you.

Of course, allot of people just like to shoot thermals at a non-moving target like steel on a range where everything is perfectly setup and stationary at a known distance, for them something like a T-75 would be ideal.

But if you plan on bringing home the bacon or fur, wide FOV cannot be beat!


Me%20&%20Hogs2_edited-1.jpg
 
Skypup, the 0.5x doesn't look too bad in that photo you have in black hot. Aren't the internals the same on M18 and T70? White hot, and to a lesser degree black hot, even in DDE, washes out in high humidity with my M18. The T70 is not calibrated to shoot at 0.5x, correct?
 
The T-70 is basically a weaponized M-18, I mostly only use DDE only in high humidity conditions.

If I had turned on DDE in the photos there would be much more distinct darker contrast at all ranges.

My M-18 has a build date of March 2014 and has a new objective lens that is not the same as previous production models.

The T-70 is only calibrated to shoot in 1X when you first turn it on, however if you are using it as a clip-on, you then take five seconds to co-witness your day reticule with the T-70 reticule and you are GTG at all three T-70 magnifications. I usually do this when I first am leaving the house, then it is on target in all magnifications once I enter the woods for the rest of the night.
 
TestnDoc, have you gotten to use the sight in front of any optics mounted on a 10 or 20 moa base? I'm curious as to how much this would affect the sight performance considering the LWTS would not be mounted at the same incline.
 
I recently purchased an L-3 LWTS & am currently familiarizing myself with the controls & experimenting with various weapon platforms: a COLT M16A1 carbine (stand-alone as the flattop M4 upper receiver rail is too short for clip-on), LWRCI REPR (clip-on/Trijicon MGO 6x ACOG), LWRCI M6IC (clip-on/ELCAN SPECTER D/R 1x/4x) & STEYR AUG A3 (clip-on/AIMPOINT PRO). While I have no experience with the M18 640 & cannot comment on its capabilities, the image quality of the L-3 LWTS is simply outstanding. I prefer WHITE HOT & viewing targets using the SPECTER D/R's reticle hits the spot. The M16A1 should be the ultimate test due to the BCG's slamming vibration induced during f/a. There was barely enough room on the top rail to mount the L-3 LWTS on the AUG & clear the 45º short side rail mounted Streamlight 300 lumen strobe flashlight/LASER at the LaRue throwlever. The Streamlight's Red LASER dot is visible spectrum & cannot be seen through the thermal unit nor can the L-3 see through glass unless an object with a differential element of heat/cold were to be in close proximity (induction, convection, conduction). The capability of thermal scopes may be obvious to some experienced users, but to others getting started... not so much. I have an NVS/nvec RAPTOR 3rd gen+, 72lp/mm "starlight" scope on the COLT at this time & it's an entirely different game altogether. When the thermal is running in clip-on mode on my M6IC/ELCAN/L-3 LWTS, the gap between the clip-on's eyepiece lens & the objective of the Specter is sufficient to light up the operator big time w/o a CCO shroud when viewed through the RAPTOR. Actually, it will light up an entire room; not a good thing. Fortunately, I have that component, but need the RCO shroud for other applications. The shuttered auto-recalibration mode of the LWTS was pause for concern, but it can be bypassed for manual calibration. That's not a big deal in a stable environment, but sweeping the platform on a moving target & having the auto-calibration kick in, can be problematic in changing heat/cold patterns. On stationary targets in a stable background, the auto feature activates every 30 minutes. Manual bypass comes in handy depending on the application.
$11K was a lot of coin for me to throw down on a thermal, but I love the LWTS. I did the usual research of various units available to the civilian market & the LWTS comes out on top for my use. What's not to like? A cassette holding 4 common AA Lithium batteries is pretty sweet for swap outs although run time is approximately 10 hours. The Marine Corps seems to like their version of the AN/PAS-13G(v)1 LWTS & it's combat rugged. My engagements are typically under 500m & my thermal is exceptional for that task. I'm not experiencing washouts & the clarity is as good or better than anything available out to $20K, IMHO. I would imagine that parts & service will be available for many years. That's not always the case with lesser units.
I'll report back when I get some more trigger time with my LWTS, but I can't imagine anyone displeased with the quality of this thermal scope; it delivers.

I've been an avid shooter/collector for over 4 decades & I am in no way connected to any of the outlets that sell thermal scopes to end-users. This is my 1st post here & I hope to learn a lot from others who have had the benefit of actual hands-on experience. Have a great weekend!
 
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Stymie.

You have given an excellent short review of the LWTS. I have had one now for a month and run into the same situations. The image is exceptional. Whoever put the kit together for sale should be fired for the lack of proper and necessary accessories. Many of us are jury rigging the options and they do work but for a 11/14K outfit that is inexcusable.

The devise itself is outstanding and you should find that it holds up very well. So far my experience is limited to a clip on usage and hand held, Works great. I have not yet used it on a weapon as a stand alone..

Good luck and keep the feedback coming in.
 
There's about a 1/3" mismatch in the LWTS optical axis in clip-on mode with the 6x ACOG mounted to my REPR. I was concerned that parallax issues (POA/POI) would manifest along with pixelation but that seems to be a non-issue at 100m. I need access to a range other than the 100m at Lake City Conservation here in Missouri to verify if that's actually the case at longer range. The display clarity was amazing considering the 6x fixed magnification. A friend of mine has a farm in Platte City with well over 700m of safe clearing. We might just try our hand at the rural hostile vegetable pacification program. Confirming RTZ should prove interesting.

I think that L.E., .gov & .mil demand has established a higher contractural priority over civilian end-users & components such as shrouds/optics bridges, even though outsourced, are still bound by pecking order. My unit has a birth date of February, 2014 & apparently a "full kit" is not the norm. It seems to be the trend these days with companies such as AIMPOINT leaning away from the civilian market. Fortunately, for those of us who like to shoot Knight's Armament Corporation rifles such as the SR-25K/"enhanced" variants, their sister company KMC/Knight's Manufacturing Company is happy to fulfill civilian orders. I shoot suppressed & now prefer the LWRCI REPR. It's a wonderful stick w/o gas in the face as it's a side-cocker similar to a FAL but with bolt-assist in the handle. Nothing quite like watery eyes when trying to engage.

From what I gather, full-auto is the real test of a thermal core's fragility/longevity & the VOx sensor is apparently up to the task. That type of shock FAIL would be a deal breaker for me. My unit came with a charger & 8 rechargeable Lithium AA batteries. While they "may" have a shorter operating time than the ubiquitous AA throwaway battery, the rechargeable packs might come in pretty handy with vehicle accessory power sockets & solar cells in a pinch.

I've had the LWTS for one week & spent the better part of the day/night it arrived doing function checks. I adjusted the objective for close-up viewing in my home looking for hot spots in electrical wiring, termite damage, attic insulation & possible nesting sites for wasps that try to set up shop during the Spring & Summer months. In some instances, I could see the criss-cross internal framing of a hollow core wooden door as if I had X-Ray vision & thermal patterns of internal organs of willing participants (hand held, not weapon mounted). The image is so sharp that detailed facial identification/recognition blew me away. Just placing my hand momentarily on a cotton jacket left a HOT image for several minutes. A light fixture in the kitchen that had been turned off an hour prior looked as though it was still "lit". AMAZING! OK, I was just playing around with it & then I went to the toy box to mount it on appropriate weapon platforms. The CCO shroud/bridge is pretty stiff & the gap between the ELCAN & LWTS is only about 1/3". I had to screw the CCO on to the thermal, insert it into the recess of the SPECTER's objective & rock both into position on the rail, simultaneously. Thermals by their very nature run hot & while they are passive to some extent, they do radiate heat. That signature can be picked up by an opponent with another thermal even though the CCO is utilized. Food for thought! That can be mitigated to some extent by improvising a body bag for the LWTS out of Mylar & a thin sheet of insulation.

My wife, bless her heart, is supportive of my addiction... I've been leaving subliminal hints that I have a powerful hankering for mass quantities of ENERGIZER "Ultimate" Lithium AA Batteries... & coincidentally, my birthday is this coming Wednesday.
 
[MENTION=102325]stymie[/MENTION]: Xlnt review, Its unbelievable almost that you know so much about the l3 and LWTS in the short week that youve had it! This is Why I love this site, very knowledgable group of guys posting great feedback on the products!! [MENTION=65832]TestnDoc[/MENTION]: I think we may have some MTM Weapon mounts if you need one, please get some nice video out footage from the MTM, even though its a 320x240 detector, its a DRS so you are gonna be really happy with it, Id almost go as far to say its really similar to
quality as the DRS 640. Alot of .mil guys say that they like the functionality of the MTM and WTM over any other scope.
 
Wow what a huge difference!! What a piece of garbage flir m18.

Wow what a huge difference!! What a piece of garbage flir m18.

Wow what a huge difference!! What a piece of garbage flir m18.


L3 lwts is amazing!

L3 lwts is amazing!

L3 lwts is amazing!

Searching your stuff in the past, you all used to love FLIR and show them off everywhere. Now you just bad mouth the crap out of them. You do not even sell FLIR anymore and from reading the past blogs here, you got dropped from FLIR? Now outta the blue you bash everything about them. Not sure I can buy into your nonsense. Kinda agree with that Mirage guy here.
 
L3 LWTS vs M18 640

[MENTION=2747]Mirage[/MENTION]:
I'm not on here to "sell" I'm here to battle on which rifle scope is best!!!

This entire thread is invalid, the M18 is not a rifle scope or a weapons mountable unit. See the T-70 vs LWTS thread...

SPI has mentioned on that thread they would mail me a demo unit to compare the 2 for an un bias opinion yet when I call them they can't make it happen...

I don't work for either company but sell both... SPI can't get FLIR so of course they bash FLIR products.
Hmmm...
 
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I e-mailed Insight a couple of days ago trying to find out information. Once we established that I was a civilian trying to obtain information they sent me over to SPI. Had the referral gone to someone else, I think I would have bought the LWTS.

For now, I'll just wait, eat popcorn, and see how this all plays out.
 
I e-mailed Insight a couple of days ago trying to find out information. Once we established that I was a civilian trying to obtain information they sent me over to SPI. Had the referral gone to someone else, I think I would have bought the LWTS.

For now, I'll just wait, eat popcorn, and see how this all plays out.

I would give SPI a call. ThermalSpy already apologized to you, which would suffice for most men. You owe it to yourself to look at the LWTS before making your final decision. Just my .02