Night Vision L3 LWTS

[padronanniversary]

Looking into getting into the thermal game.

The LWTS has me intrigued. The pricing varies considerably on the internet with most places being out of stock other than botach (lol)

Any recommendations of a similar type of thermal ?

Thermal seems a hard buy, tech advancements make them seem obsolete or at least not as desirables in few years time, so the cost is a hard pill to swallow

 

[TheHorta]

IMHO, the LWTS-LR shouldn’t cost more than $7000-8000 tops. It is OK and is “Milspec” but no way it’s worth over $10K outside of having a legit military pedigree for Larping points. It doesn’t perform any better than the current crop of top tier consumer thermals, like the Halo or ReapIR lines, and doesn’t have as nice a display.

I’ve owned two G V1’s and V3’s and haven’t missed them since I dumped them. If you just HAVE to own one, I wouldn’t spend a red cent more than $10K, and even that’s a premium.

A lot of stuff out there every bit as good or better.

 

[padronanniversary]

IMHO, the LWTS-LR shouldn’t cost more than $7000-8000 tops. It is OK and is “Milspec” but no way it’s worth over $10K outside of having a legit military pedigree for Larping points. It doesn’t perform any better than the current crop of top tier consumer thermals, like the Halo or ReapIR lines, and doesn’t have as nice a display.

I’ve owned two G V1’s and V3’s and haven’t missed them since I dumped them. If you just HAVE to own one, I wouldn’t spend a red cent more than $10K, and even that’s a premium.

A lot of stuff out there every bit as good or better.

View attachment 7772377

Thank you !! That’s what I am wondering with the current advancements. Seems there are current gen stuff that is as good these days. I need a store front to visit and buy toys like this

 

[Nik H]

IMHO, the LWTS-LR shouldn’t cost more than $7000-8000 tops.

That cheap??? I have never seen an LR sell for less than $12-13K. You sure you aren't talking about the non LR version

 

[TheHorta]

That cheap??? I have never seen an LR sell for less than $12-13K. You sure you aren't talking about the non LR version

I’ve never seen one that cheap either. Just saying that the LR isn’t worth anywhere near $10-13K.

5 years ago, sure, but not anymore. It’s aging tech that is bettered by the current crop of $4K-$8K consumer thermals. Even the iRay stuff is better, IMO.

Strictly from an image quality and advanced features perspective.

 

[Burdy]

You don't buy the LWTS LR for image quality or features. You buy it because of the easy to use interface and it's bombproof. Your use case will determine if it's the best buy or a terrible buy.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Maybe what Horta was trying to say is.

L3 are some Cucks and don't use any lube when they do you.

 

[deersniper]

like the Halo or ReapIR lines, and doesn’t have as nice a display.

Have you seen all the bs problems people post on here about those commercial scopes ?

 

[TheHorta]

Have you seen all the bs problems people post on here about those commercial scopes ?

Sure, but the LWTS isn’t perfect either, not by a long shot. For 90% of use scenarios, a ReapIR or Halo is better than an LWTS-LR.

 

[deersniper]

Sure, but the LWTS isn’t perfect either, not by a long shot. For 90% of use scenarios, a ReapIR or Halo is better than an LWTS-LR.

You’re still wrong.


If only the LR had a decent mil reticle it would be awesome.


How fubar are these companies and .gov procurement to not include a mil reticle and a pic rail on top for LRF

 

[TheHorta]

You’re still wrong.


If only the LR had a decent mil reticle it would be awesome.


How fubar are these companies and .gov procurement to not include a mil reticle and a pic rail on top for LRF

I’m not saying the LWTS is a bad unit. It was great kit 8 years ago when it was introduced. It’s awesome if you want to Larp with authority. But there’s just no reality in which an 8 year old thermal scope is worth >$10K in today’s reality. It’ll be even more painfully acute after SHOT 2022 and knowing the next-generation crop of legit .MIL thermals coming to market in the next couple of months that will be openly available to the consumer market.

They simply crush the PAS-13G / LWTS-LR in no uncertain terms. It’s just the reality of technology. My iPhone 10 ain’t no iPhone 13.

It’s OK to complain. It’s OK to like what you like. But the plain fact is, the LWTS is old tech and is clearly outpaced by today’s offerings — and it’s about to get WAY outpaced in the next few months.

This is, in large part, why I dumped my LWTS units earlier this year. Other stuff I currently have blows it away, and in 2022 LWTS value is about to take a steep nosedive.

 

[upSLIDEdown]

Yerp. From what I'm seeing, we're on the cusp of some big bombs about to drop in the thermal world, especially for the civi market. Specifically in the clip-on arena. These things were awesome in their day but are about to be relics with the quickness.

 

[WhereNow&How]

This is, in large part, why I dumped my LWTS units earlier this year. Other stuff I currently have blows it away, and in 2022 LWTS value is about to take a steep nosedive.

I'm all in on a LWTS at $3,900.

 

[TheHorta]

I’d get another LR at $8K or a V1 at $4K. I’m just one dude with an opinion. 2 years from now I think they’ll be worth half that. But I see the 13G’s in that range sometime in 2022, give or take $1K.

I’m anxiously awaiting the Theons to get here. I hear the ghost of L Ron Hubbard delivers a free copy of Dianetics to you with every Theon you buy.

 

[deersniper]

I’d get another LR at $8K or a V1 at $4K. I’m just one dude with an opinion. 2 years from now I think they’ll be worth half that. But I see the 13G’s in that range sometime in 2022, give or take $1K.

I’m anxiously awaiting the Theons to get here. I hear the ghost of L Ron Hubbard delivers a free copy of Dianetics to you with every Theon you buy.

And xii’s are gonna be going for 8-10 right ?

 

[TheHorta]

And xii’s are gonna be going for 8-10 right ?

That would be awesome! Unfortunately, unlike with the LWTS, demand for the Xii far outstrips supply.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I hear the ghost of L Ron Hubbard delivers a free copy of Dianetics to you with every Theon you buy.

Well Joel has something to say about that.

 

[Burdy]

You’re still wrong.


If only the LR had a decent mil reticle it would be awesome.


How fubar are these companies and .gov procurement to not include a mil reticle and a pic rail on top for LRF

If you aren't using the LWTS as a pass through the value worsens.

 

[cake5150]

I owned a 13G for four years, it was the tits when I bought it in 2014. It is no less effective of a unit today than it was then, but its cost effectiveness compared to other available devices has steadily declined, IMO. I paid $10k for mine and got more than that out of it when I sold it. There is zero chance I would spend that on one today, even though $10k is worth FAR less today than it was eight years ago. Today I would be willing to pay $3500 for one, no more. No one is going to be selling them for that any time soon. YMMV.

 

[minorsubplot]

Yerp. From what I'm seeing, we're on the cusp of some big bombs about to drop in the thermal world, especially for the civi market. Specifically in the clip-on arena. These things were awesome in their day but are about to be relics with the quickness.

I’m not saying the LWTS is a bad unit. It was great kit 8 years ago when it was introduced. It’s awesome if you want to Larp with authority. But there’s just no reality in which an 8 year old thermal scope is worth >$10K in today’s reality. It’ll be even more painfully acute after SHOT 2022 and knowing the next-generation crop of legit .MIL thermals coming to market in the next couple of months that will be openly available to the consumer market.

They simply crush the PAS-13G / LWTS-LR in no uncertain terms. It’s just the reality of technology. My iPhone 10 ain’t no iPhone 13.

It’s OK to complain. It’s OK to like what you like. But the plain fact is, the LWTS is old tech and is clearly outpaced by today’s offerings — and it’s about to get WAY outpaced in the next few months.

This is, in large part, why I dumped my LWTS units earlier this year. Other stuff I currently have blows it away, and in 2022 LWTS value is about to take a steep nosedive.

What's looking best from SHOT?

 

[stefan73]

IMHO, the LWTS-LR shouldn’t cost more than $7000-8000 tops. It is OK and is “Milspec” but no way it’s worth over $10K outside of having a legit military pedigree for Larping points. It doesn’t perform any better than the current crop of top tier consumer thermals, like the Halo or ReapIR lines, and doesn’t have as nice a display.

I’ve owned two G V1’s and V3’s and haven’t missed them since I dumped them. If you just HAVE to own one, I wouldn’t spend a red cent more than $10K, and even that’s a premium.

A lot of stuff out there every bit as good or better.

View attachment 7772377

Nice Attila!! How is that UTC handling the recoil?

 

[TheHorta]

Nice Attila!! How is that UTC handling the recoil?

I don’t actually shoot any clip-ons on the SCAR. It has a great, long monolithic rail that makes for good faux toes.

 

[deersniper]

I don’t actually shoot any clip-ons on the SCAR. It has a great, long monolithic rail that makes for good faux toes.

Well it would eat them. So

 

[stefan73]

I don’t actually shoot any clip-ons on the SCAR. It has a great, long monolithic rail that makes for good faux toes.

I saw it on there and remember what Wig said about SCAR's eating just about anything.

I'm trying to hold out for something a UTC-X type/capable thermal that is collimated for around the $8-10K range if that will happen? Hoping to see what comes from SHOT or sooner.

 

[TheHorta]

I saw it on there and remember what Wig said about SCAR's eating just about anything.

I'm trying to hold out for something a UTC-X type/capable thermal that is collimated for around the $8-10K range if that will happen? Hoping to see what comes from SHOT or sooner.

The Chicoms are pumping stuff out fast and furious. Within the next 24 months we’re going to see some killer HD clipons that blow today’s stuff away. It’ll still cost a bit, but the 640 stuff with HD displays will be in the sub-$4K range and will be as good as a UTC (image quality-wise) or better.

It’s technology. LWIR sensors aren’t especially difficult to manufacture, and it’s actually fairly old tech at that. They’ll get the clipon/collimation thing figured and will drive the market through the floor.

 

[stefan73]

The Chicoms are pumping stuff out fast and furious. Within the next 24 months we’re going to see some killer HD clipons that blow today’s stuff away. It’ll still cost a bit, but the 640 stuff with HD displays will be in the sub-$4K range and will be as good as a UTC (image quality-wise) or better.

It’s technology. LWIR sensors aren’t especially difficult to manufacture, and it’s actually fairly old tech at that. They’ll get the clipon/collimation thing figured and will drive the market through the floor.

That is some of what I had been hearing but just rumors per say on my end. Not the driving the market through the floor part but the improved systems.

I almost dropped on a Yoter-C at half the price that I think I am willing to spend, but it sounds like better is still to come.

 

[TheHebrewHammer]

I just want my Steiner C35 to arrive that I ordered 13 months ago so I can see what a 300 PRC does to a hog.

 

[TheHorta]

When Infiray first began probing the US market about 3 or so years ago, they were going to dump their thermals, like the MH25, for $2K or less. They were ready to do that back then. Certain people and vendors told them they were insane, and the prices literally doubled overnight. Back in 2018, before iRay was ever heard of in the US, you could actually buy an MH25 for $1800 brand new, and iRay was concerned even that was too much. They greatly underestimated what the US market was willing to pay.

Just in case you thought 640 thermals for the masses was a far-off pipe dream, the ability for it to happen has been around for a few years already. The consumer market is artifically high right now, but in 24-36 months we’re going to see a steep decline in pricing — all of it due to our Chicom comrades.

 

[rlsmith1]

For those that trust the Chinese as far as you can throw them, American and European car manufacturers have been trying to integrate thermal into their driver assistance for a while now. If they can figure that out, we will see production of thermal sensors at a scale we have never seen before which would be awesome. That is probably more than 36 months out though if I had to guess. Excited for the future

 

[EWS6]

When Infiray first began probing the US market about 3 or so years ago, they were going to dump their thermals, like the MH25, for $2K or less. They were ready to do that back then. Certain people and vendors told them they were insane, and the prices literally doubled overnight. Back in 2018, before iRay was ever heard of in the US, you could actually buy an MH25 for $1800 brand new, and iRay was concerned even that was too much. They greatly underestimated what the US market was willing to pay.

Just in case you thought 640 thermals for the masses was a far-off pipe dream, the ability for it to happen has been around for a few years already. The consumer market is artifically high right now, but in 24-36 months we’re going to see a steep decline in pricing — all of it due to our Chicom comrades.

iray dumping thermals at 1800 would put a big damper on any domestic commercial thermal enterprises.

This does not sound good for the likes of nvision/trijicon thermals

 

[Nik H]

The Chicoms are pumping stuff out fast and furious. Within the next 24 months we’re going to see some killer HD clipons that blow today’s stuff away. It’ll still cost a bit, but the 640 stuff with HD displays will be in the sub-$4K range and will be as good as a UTC (image quality-wise) or better.

It’s technology. LWIR sensors aren’t especially difficult to manufacture, and it’s actually fairly old tech at that. They’ll get the clipon/collimation thing figured and will drive the market through the floor.

I have no doubt about what will be coming out of Asia. I think you're spot on with their capability to produce a cheaper and equally capable system.....BUT...collimation is an analog correction. You can't emulate a collimated optic using an algorithm implemented on a DSP. Unless the prisms and process can be cost reduced in Asia, that is a fixed cost common to both indigenous and external sources. That said there are many other areas that they could reduce to make it more competitive in price.

Will it be competitive from a reliability / durability perspective?
Will it be allowed for import?

Lots of ways to keep prices relatively stable for the US companies

 

[wigwamitus]

... iray dumping thermals at 1800 ...

As horta said, this already happened ... but a USA company talked to them and got them to raise their prices, so the USA company could charge double to the USA market. This was done in part to enable the inclusion of a warranty reserve, in this case meaning the USA company buys extra units and puts them on the shelf, so they can swap you out if your unit breaks. But a typical warranty reserve would only be a fraction of the price increase we saw (I worked in high tech manufacturing myself for 23 years).

You can still buy thermals at cut rate prices on alibaba.

Alibaba.com

Alibaba.com

www.alibaba.com

MWIR units cost more ...

Alibaba.com

Alibaba.com

www.alibaba.com

... Will it be competitive from a reliability / durability perspective? ...

Maybe I've just been unlucky, but of the dozen chinese thermals I've had, all but two of them failed quickly in the field. Blank screens, loss of focus on recoil, extremely fuzzy images, etc.

But I do see the new bering optics yotesters showing "IP66" for the 1024 model and "IP67" for the 1280 model, and I've sure those IP numbers are "certified" by the CCP, so they must be true !!

So things must be improving on the reliability front !!

... Will it be allowed for import? ..

They seem to be shoveling them into this gangland by the container shipload at this point. Most of the thermals we see out there, Steiner, BO, Zeiss, Leica, Pulsar, etc. are chinese. These days, if it doesn't have FLIR core or a BAE core, or isn't a USA military unit or a NATO gangland military unit, then assume its 90% made in China.

So short answer, YES.

 

[Markhammett]

I would really like to know what is out there that is a better option than the LWTS? UTCX are triple the price in some cases. I really don't see that as an apple to apple comparison. The new Eotech unit that is supposed to be out this summer looks nice, but the only real advantage I see is a little better image. I really like the size and weight of the CRATOS, but they are extremely rare, and come with their own downfalls. If there is something new out there that is really that much better that's not 3 times the cost , what is it specifically?

 

[stefan73]

For those that trust the Chinese as far as you can throw them, American and European car manufacturers have been trying to integrate thermal into their driver assistance for a while now. If they can figure that out, we will see production of thermal sensors at a scale we have never seen before which would be awesome. That is probably more than 36 months out though if I had to guess. Excited for the future

Cadillac did that a long time ago. It was in the 2000 Cadillac Deville if I am correct.

 

[TheHorta]

I would really like to know what is out there that is a better option than the LWTS? UTCX are triple the price in some cases. I really don't see that as an apple to apple comparison. The new Eotech unit that is supposed to be out this summer looks nice, but the only real advantage I see is a little better image. I really like the size and weight of the CRATOS, but they are extremely rare, and come with their own downfalls. If there is something new out there that is really that much better that's not 3 times the cost , what is it specifically?

Image quality-wise, almost every current scope is superior to the LWTS — any Halo, Trijicon, iRay, etc produce a much better image.

 

[Markhammett]

Image quality-wise, almost every current scope is superior to the LWTS — any Halo, Trijicon, iRay, etc produce a much better image.

I'm not talking about using it as a stand alone unit. I'm talking about as a clip on. How many of the units your speaking of can you clip on in front of a day scope and have less than 1 moa shift even without everything being lined up perfect? To me that is more important than image quality.

 

[Markhammett]

I would take an old x27 over any of the new Halo, Iray and Trijicon stuff (excluding the UTCX).

 

[Ppapago]

I'm not talking about using it as a stand alone unit. I'm talking about as a clip on. How many of the units your speaking of can you clip on in front of a day scope and have less than 1 moa shift even without everything being lined up perfect? To me that is more important than image quality.

I understand where you are coming from. I have a LWTS and the ability to simply drop it on a gun as a clip-on and be ready to go is what makes it great and outweighs the now so-so image quality compared to my Reap-Ir and Nox.

 

[TheHorta]

I'm not talking about using it as a stand alone unit. I'm talking about as a clip on. How many of the units your speaking of can you clip on in front of a day scope and have less than 1 moa shift even without everything being lined up perfect? To me that is more important than image quality.

There are actually a lot of clipons out there, but oddly many of them have skipped the US market (CH50, etc). But there are a flood available now, from iRay, Pulsar, etc, that all beat the stuffin’ outta our 8-year-old gal — not that I’ll own any of them.

But the LWTS still holds up well in spite of her age. I expect we’ll see a bunch of them used at cheap prices in the next 12-24 months. I’m guessing $3-4K for the V1 and $6-8K for then V3. At those prices, why not have one along with your Chicom stuff?

 

[WhereNow&How]

The LWTS is starting to sound like that big ole Eskimo chick. Good for keeping you warm on a cold night but not the one you take out dancing.

 

[Markhammett]

I sold my 35mm reap and bought an LWTS. I don't regret it one bit. I would love to have a smaller, lighter LWTS with a slightly better image. Maybe something will be available in the future that I feel fits this description.

 

[Markhammett]

anyone know where one of the old x27 thermals are for sale?

 

[Markhammett]

There are actually a lot of clipons out there, but oddly many of them have skipped the US market (CH50, etc). But there are a flood available now, from iRay, Pulsar, etc, that all beat the stuffin’ outta our 8-year-old gal — not that I’ll own any of them.

But the LWTS still holds up well in spite of her age. I expect we’ll see a bunch of them used at cheap prices in the next 12-24 months. I’m guessing $3-4K for the V1 and $6-8K for then V3. At those prices, why not have one along with your Chicom stuff?

Are you aware of any Prism collimated clip ons coming to the civilian market soon? Like maybe a newer version of the cratos without the full power laser.

 

[TheHebrewHammer]

Theon Clip Ons see @DownRangeThermal

 

[EchoFiveIndia]

anyone know where one of the old x27 thermals are for sale?

There’s an L3 CNVD-T listed on eBay currently

 

[Markhammett]

There’s an L3 CNVD-T listed on eBay currently

Yeah they have too many zeros on that price.

 

[Markhammett]

Theon Clip Ons see @DownRangeThermal

Not really what I’m looking for.

 

[TheHorta]

Choose wisely:

 

[Markhammett]

Hey Horta do you still have that CRATOS?

 

[TheHorta]

Hey Horta do you still have that CRATOS?

No, I only have these two now: