Labradar Question

[NamibHunter]

Strange thing happened this weekend: Loaded 60 new neck turned Lapua cases with a low charge fire forming load, and shot 145 Barnes Matchburners. LabRadar reported an average of 2360 fps, about what i expected based on prior fireforming work. Never shot my fireforming loads beyond 100 yards. This time i tried to shoot it (just for grins) at 400 yard steel targets, from my MPA BA rifle. Rifle has been accurate so far, capable of 0.3-0.4”. The ammo was remarkably accurate, and i could get 9/10 hits on the steel targets (from 6” or 1.5 MOA down to 3” or 0.75 MOA). Most misses were due to wind direction changes (missed left or right). Maybe 3 out of 60 shots went below or above the target. I realize that at only 400, most of my targets were at or above 1.0 MOA.

What was weird is that LabRadar reported an SD of 29.8 fps and an ES of 120 fps! Yet the ammo shot really well!

Is LabRadar giving me false readings? Is it reliable at slower speeds?

I ran that 120 fps difference through Strelok Pro, and it predicts 5” of vertical dispersion at 400 yards. Maybe that explains it. I could see about 3-4” of “waterline” on the steel targets.

Maybe there was accidental positive compensation at work here…. Just very surprised that a load with an ES of 120 fps can do this well.

 

[6.5SH]

When I have been running my LabRadar while shooting at distance I have found 1:1 correlation with a high or low shot and a velocity reading that showed a significant deviation from average.

 

[NamibHunter]

Yes there was a pretty good correlation, slow shots hit low, fast shots hit higher.

I’m slowly coming to the conclusion that my club’s 400 yard steel targets are perhaps larger than they should be. Probably more suitable for 600 or 800 yards.

 

[308sako]

I've just recently begun to use my LabRadar when shooting at extreme distsnce. It tells you why you missed and in so doing prevents un necessary or false corrections.

 

[rustyinbend]

I also use Labradar, and have noticed that quite frequently, especially on factory ammo ... I can shoot very tight groups that also have very large SD's and ES's. Check individual shots, and you'll usually see that if you delete the highest and lowest of a group of 10 or more ... the SD and ES will improve dramatically. Just my observation.

 

[Brettmparker1]

I delete shots until I get single digit everything and then tell everyone my ammo is the most accurate lethal shit on the planet. On a serious note I did play with the calculator and it looks like you should have seen somewhere in the 4 tenths of shift at 400. Just under 6 inches if I did the math right.

 

[bunny too]

I delete shots until I get single digit everything and then tell everyone my ammo is the most accurate lethal shit on the planet. On a serious note I did play with the calculator and it looks like you should have seen somewhere in the 4 tenths of shift at 400. Just under 6 inches if I did the math right.

Yeah me too! I shoot groups of three and drop the fastest and slowest. My ES and SD are excellent and I usually get one hole grouping.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Yeah me too! I shoot groups of three and drop the fastest and slowest. My ES and SD are excellent and I usually get one hole grouping.

This is a waste of components. One-shot groups get me the best ES/SD.

 

[rady]

I could be wrong, but doesn't it say in the manual or videos, that the Lab will not work at distances greater than 100 yards? I should say, not as accurately.

 

[whatsupdoc]

I could be wrong, but doesn't it say in the manual or videos, that the Lab will not work at distances greater than 100 yards?

It dos not but the point is to capture muzzle velocity data so that the cause of any vertical dispersion can be identified.

 

[rady]

It dos not but the point is to capture muzzle velocity data so that the cause of any vertical dispersion can be identified.

Thanks for that. Would aiming play into the equation? The reason I ask is even at 100 yards, I found that data was corrupted by poor aim point of the Lab, so I followed a suggestion of using a primer tube to aim with. Problem solved.

 

[NamibHunter]

Well after maybe 3000 rounds fired “over” (past) the LabRadar crony, i have seen maybe 3 or 4 obvious errors, where it said 4000 fps (for a 6.5 CM!) or 2100 fps or some such silly nr. Very very rarely happens. Might be picking up two bullets in flight at the same time at a very busy 100 yard line. It fails to record maybe 5 out of 50 rounds, which is rather annoying. Probably due to my aiming error and the oversized brake bumping it around even if positioned ahead of the muzzle.

So i think my 120 ES (new personal record) is legit!

Have seen 8-12 fps SDs and 30-39 ES from Berger and Federal GMM ammo…

Just maybe this says you don’t really needing to reload - unless you shoot at small sub-MOA steel targets at 600 yards and beyond, or trying to get into the ones at 100, or trying to get hits on a 1.5 MOA plate at 2,500 in an ELR setting…

 

[Doom]

Just some observations.

With a sample size of 53 rounds a ES of 120 is not something I would normally pay attention to since it represents only two rounds of the 53. The larger the sample size the greater the possibility of capturing an outlier.

What is concerning is the fact that 2x the SD roughly covering the 120 ES. This tends to suggest that you have a fairly wide flat distribution of velocities. I’m guessing this is probably due to low fill volume.

Assuming your shooting a 6.5 that 120 ES is about a 6” total vertical dispersion holding the barrel elevation constant. (2280 vs 2400).

 

[NamibHunter]

Just some observations.

With a sample size of 53 rounds a ES of 120 is not something I would normally pay attention to since it represents only two rounds of the 53. The larger the sample size the greater the possibility of capturing an outlier.

What is concerning is the fact that 2x the SD roughly covering the 120 ES. This tends to suggest that you have a fairly wide flat distribution of velocities. I’m guessing this is probably due to low fill volume.

Assuming your shooting a 6.5 that 120 ES is about a 6” total vertical dispersion holding the barrel elevation constant. (2280 vs 2400).

Yes: Fill ratio was low, at 40.0 gn (1 gn above book minimum), milsurp 30-06 ball powder, probably an 80% fill ratio. Wrong powder, low fill ratio, so quite an unstable load recipe.

Just to confirm: The SD was just below 30 fps, ES of 120, fps, so ES = 4*SD, which probably hints at a Normal distibution? So 2 SDs up plus 2 SDs down from average. No outliers were deleted, a warts-and-all data set.

Agree on the calculated 6” vertical dispersion, of course most shots would have been within one SD of average, so that would be 2*30=60 fps, or 3” of vertical, for about 70% of the shots.

 

[orkan]

I had some crazy things happening with my labradar, so I called them. I was seeing very strange velocity numbers, that I knew couldn't be right.

Low and behold it was the recoil trigger I was using. They directly told me, in no uncertain terms, that they do not under any circumstances recommend the recoil triggers. I set it up and fired some rounds out my window while I was on the call with them, and sure enough... when I removed the recoil trigger everything went back to working fine. This, despite the fact I had been using the recoil trigger on this exact rifle in the exact same place multiple times. They (labradar) does not recommend or support the inertia triggers under any circumstances, and it was very clear to me by the tone of their voice that they get this customer service problem regularly. They obviously have a lot of recoil trigger problem calls.

I bought the recoil trigger to solve problems when shooting centerfires suppressed. So, now instead of the recoil triggers, I use their air gun mic kit, directly supported, sold, and authorized by Labradar. It's been working flawlessly, both suppressed centerfires and unsuppressed 22lr. I haven't tried it with suppressed 22lr yet.

 

[6.5SH]

I had some crazy things happening with my labradar, so I called them. I was seeing very strange velocity numbers, that I knew couldn't be right.

Low and behold it was the recoil trigger I was using. They directly told me, in no uncertain terms, that they do not under any circumstances recommend the recoil triggers. I set it up and fired some rounds out my window while I was on the call with them, and sure enough... when I removed the recoil trigger everything went back to working fine. This, despite the fact I had been using the recoil trigger on this exact rifle in the exact same place multiple times. They (labradar) does not recommend or support the inertia triggers under any circumstances, and it was very clear to me by the tone of their voice that they get this customer service problem regularly. They obviously have a lot of recoil trigger problem calls.

I bought the recoil trigger to solve problems when shooting centerfires suppressed. So, now instead of the recoil triggers, I use their air gun mic kit, directly supported, sold, and authorized by Labradar. It's been working flawlessly, both suppressed centerfires and unsuppressed 22lr. I haven't tried it with suppressed 22lr yet.

Are you talking a wild reading from a false trigger from running the bolt or an actual reading from a fired shot?

Also who's recoil trigger?

 

[HemiPowrd]

I had some crazy things happening with my labradar, so I called them. I was seeing very strange velocity numbers, that I knew couldn't be right.

Low and behold it was the recoil trigger I was using. They directly told me, in no uncertain terms, that they do not under any circumstances recommend the recoil triggers. I set it up and fired some rounds out my window while I was on the call with them, and sure enough... when I removed the recoil trigger everything went back to working fine. This, despite the fact I had been using the recoil trigger on this exact rifle in the exact same place multiple times. They (labradar) does not recommend or support the inertia triggers under any circumstances, and it was very clear to me by the tone of their voice that they get this customer service problem regularly. They obviously have a lot of recoil trigger problem calls.

I bought the recoil trigger to solve problems when shooting centerfires suppressed. So, now instead of the recoil triggers, I use their air gun mic kit, directly supported, sold, and authorized by Labradar. It's been working flawlessly, both suppressed centerfires and unsuppressed 22lr. I haven't tried it with suppressed 22lr yet.

What sensitivity setting do you use with the mic kit?

 

[orkan]

What sensitivity setting do you use with the mic kit?

Been using it on 1... on 4 it wouldn't pick up unsuppressed 22lr every time. I haven't tested level 2 or 3... just been happy on 1 so far.

 

[NamibHunter]

I had some crazy things happening with my labradar, so I called them. I was seeing very strange velocity numbers, that I knew couldn't be right.

Low and behold it was the recoil trigger I was using. They directly told me, in no uncertain terms, that they do not under any circumstances recommend the recoil triggers. I set it up and fired some rounds out my window while I was on the call with them, and sure enough... when I removed the recoil trigger everything went back to working fine. This, despite the fact I had been using the recoil trigger on this exact rifle in the exact same place multiple times. They (labradar) does not recommend or support the inertia triggers under any circumstances, and it was very clear to me by the tone of their voice that they get this customer service problem regularly. They obviously have a lot of recoil trigger problem calls.

I bought the recoil trigger to solve problems when shooting centerfires suppressed. So, now instead of the recoil triggers, I use their air gun mic kit, directly supported, sold, and authorized by Labradar. It's been working flawlessly, both suppressed centerfires and unsuppressed 22lr. I haven't tried it with suppressed 22lr yet.

Good info, thanks for sharing! I don’t have the inertial trigger, but because the MPA brake is so aggressive (it will kock half full bottles of water over on a bench, blows the gasses backwards), i follow the recommendation in the manual and place the labradar 6” forward of the brake. Fairly long 26” barrel with a 3.5” brake/tuner combo, and the bench is too small to use the orange colorer plate mount they sell. I think the tripod is less than sturdy and the device wiggles some amount every time a shot goes off. Can that mess with the reading?

Btw: I have the mic kit, and have tried to use it for air gun and archery, with no luck. Probably gave up too soon. Will give it another whirl! Might be useful to calibrate my crossbow, shooting heavier bolt/arrows.

 

[Graye2]

I bought the recoil trigger to solve problems when shooting centerfires suppressed. So, now instead of the recoil triggers, I use their air gun mic kit, directly supported, sold, and authorized by Labradar. It's been working flawlessly, both suppressed centerfires and unsuppressed 22lr. I haven't tried it with suppressed 22lr yet.

i have the mic as well and have used it with two different suppressed 22lr and it worked perfectly. Very happy with this product.

I also have the trigger (can’t remember the manufacture) so I’m hoping I won’t have the same problem eventually.

 

[orkan]

the device wiggles some amount every time a shot goes off. Can that mess with the reading?

Yes. You don't want it wiggling around. Get the GrayOps ARCA mount for the labradar and use a good tripod. I bet you can easily use 18" offset with a brake.

 

[rady]

I had nothing but problems with the Lab and already had a return label from the vendor. For a month it would lose a lot of recordings, no matter where I placed the Lab. Lots of complaints here on the Hide that you can find, along with the usual MS vs. LAB brawls.

The solution, in addition to using a primer tube for aiming, was the JKL trigger. It has worked flawlessly since its' installation. I will admit, that occasionally, I get a 4500 fps reading with 6.5 Creedmore. I really did not want to use an MS, but it does have applications where a Lab will not work.

I disagree with the manufacturers' saying not to use an inertial trigger. For myself and a lot of other Hide members, it was the fix that worked.

 

[NamibHunter]

Thanks for all the input!

Ordered the GrayOps adapter, thanks for the tip @orkan.

Moved the LR further forward, and it did better, but still missing some shots, maybe 5-7%. Investigated some more, and the cheap made-in-China tripod is the biggest culprit here. Will have to replace it. Then look at an inertial trigger.

Btw be careful what external battery you connect to a LabRadar: Mine blew up, because the new (modern) USB battery pack automatically tries to figure out if the device wants 5 Volt, 9 V or 12 V. You apparently (according to LR) have to buy an old fashioned battery that can only do 5 Volt. They sell one that works fine.

 

[NamibHunter]

Problem found: The powder i used for fire forming caused excessive carbon fouling, which led to big speed changes and a very bad ES. My standard accuracy load had double the ES subsequently.

Did a barrel deep clean and SD (and Average speed) went back to normal. SD of 7.3 fps. Same as before.

And the LabRadar works fine! Thanks for the advice.

 

[phlegethon]

Problem found: The powder i used for fire forming caused excessive carbon fouling, which led to big speed changes and a very bad ES. My standard accuracy load had double the ES subsequently.

Did a barrel deep clean and SD (and Average speed) went back to normal. SD of 7.3 fps. Same as before.

And the LabRadar works fine! Thanks for the advice.

Another point for regular barrel cleaning

 

[NamibHunter]

Another point for regular barrel cleaning

Yep, which is one of the drawbacks of using HBN: It takes 15-30 rounds post ‘deep clean’ to season the barrel and get it adequately coated with HBN. Speed moves around by 60 fps during this exercise. So the natural tensency is to delay cleaning - and run the barrel for 200-300 rounds without cleaning. Have done that a few times now, and the anti-copper fouling additive in the Tubb HBN kit seems to help with this… and got away with it until i did fireforming at a low load, using an old surplus 30-06 machine gun powder.

A light clean usually takes 5-10 shot only to get to normal speed. So not too much of a burden, but these seasoning rounds do add up over the life of a barrel.

With HBN, you need about 1.5-2% more powder in the case to get back to the same speed, which probably does not help barrel life.

Oh well, trade-offs everywhere, you just have to pick your poison. I got almost 6.5x284 performance out of a Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor case (2920 fps for a 144 gn Hybrid) using a double base powder (they all have a reputation for eating barrels at twice the normal rate). i’m pretty sure barrel life will be awful, likely in 6.5x284 territory, maybe 1,200 to 1,500.

Scary thought!