Ladder testing translation

[shawn.r2020]

Hey ya'll,
My first attempt ever at ladder load testing and im hoping some of you could help me translate the results. I will add in the load data and what shots my lab radar picked up, if needed.
Looking at the target, my shots landed EVERYWHERE, and im finding it really difficult to get any usable info from it.
I shot 4 different identical load increment ladders, all shots numbered 1-10, low charge to high in 0.3 grain increments. Please, someone help me decipher this mess... i really wanna get some ammo loaded and back out on the range.
Thanks

 

[ZA206]

Details on rifle, shooting setup, scope and load data?

 

[30cal user]

Longer distance is needed to see it better

 

[XLR308]

I've had better results picking a bullet, powder and velocity range I want to run in and making seating depth adjustments from there.
This is of course in a barrel that has settled in and don't expect to speed up.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Might have missed it. What distance was this shot?

Also, were you aiming at center of each and are the grids 1" or something else? And do you have chrono data?

 

[diggler1833]

Yeah, you'll want to provide rifle/optic details, as well as your shooting position setup and load data. That helps to narrow down if it is equipment, shooter, or component related.

There are quite a few trains of thought regarding load development. If trying to do multiple ladders, you'll probably want to conduct this test out past 500 yards really. I'm not a big fan of ladders (other than to find where pressure signs develop), but some fairly successful dudes still swear by them.

We are all at different stages in our lives where we find little things that seem to work *for us. Right now I'm of the belief that finding the right bullet for your barrel is 50% of the solution, powder/primer/brass makes another 25%, and the final 25% is fiddling with that combo until it sings.

 

[Hickswr]

I’m thankful reloading doesn’t have to be this hard.

Find pressure, back off at least a grain and send it.

Don’t like what you see, make a substantial change in jump (.025 or more) and try again.

Still no good, change bullet or powder and repeat.

There are no velocity flat spots or nodes in the safe range you should be within.

More powder = more pressure = more velocity. It’s that simple!

The use of quality components cannot be overstated.

Also remember most folks only post their “best” groups, not the average and definitely not the worst. So be realistic about your expectations.

 

[straightshooter1]

Hey ya'll,
My first attempt ever at ladder load testing and im hoping some of you could help me translate the results. I will add in the load data and what shots my lab radar picked up, if needed.
Looking at the target, my shots landed EVERYWHERE, and im finding it really difficult to get any usable info from it.
I shot 4 different identical load increment ladders, all shots numbered 1-10, low charge to high in 0.3 grain increments. Please, someone help me decipher this mess... i really wanna get some ammo loaded and back out on the range.
Thanks

View attachment 8415514

This is a fine example why a single ladder for a series of incremental loads doesn't tell anything. And when you do it multiple times (like 4 times), different results will result whether it's looking at just velocity or on paper. The better approach when you've got 10 loads x4 is to use the OCW approach. Each set of charges is shot on a single POA along a horizontal line so that the groups at each POA can be interpreted relative to each other, looking for groups with least vertical along with a small group.

I suppose one can get that information from these targets with a lot of work by consolidating each shot (like where each #1 shot's POI is relative to POA and the same for each #2 shot, then #3 shot, etc.)

 

[shawn.r2020]

Details on rifle, shooting setup, scope and load data?

Details will come as soon as i can, have the family out for mothers day weekend.

Longer distance is needed to see it better

Worked with what i had available, these were shot at 200 yards.

Might have missed it. What distance was this shot?

Also, were you aiming at center of each and are the grids 1" or something else? And do you have chrono data?

200 yards, center of each, and 1" grid

Yeah, you'll want to provide rifle/optic details, as well as your shooting position setup and load data. That helps to narrow down if it is equipment, shooter, or component related.

There are quite a few trains of thought regarding load development. If trying to do multiple ladders, you'll probably want to conduct this test out past 500 yards really. I'm not a big fan of ladders (other than to find where pressure signs develop), but some fairly successful dudes still swear by them.

We are all at different stages in our lives where we find little things that seem to work *for us. Right now I'm of the belief that finding the right bullet for your barrel is 50% of the solution, powder/primer/brass makes another 25%, and the final 25% is fiddling with that combo until it sings.

Agreed, there are better ways. This is a first attempt at a ladder to see what happens. Cant say im a fan of the ladder method, but the shots are fired so making the best of what results i have.

I’m thankful reloading doesn’t have to be this hard.

Find pressure, back off at least a grain and send it.

Don’t like what you see, make a substantial change in jump (.025 or more) and try again.

Still no good, change bullet or powder and repeat.

There are no velocity flat spots or nodes in the safe range you should be within.

More powder = more pressure = more velocity. It’s that simple!

The use of quality components cannot be overstated.

Also remember most folks only post their “best” groups, not the average and definitely not the worst. So be realistic about your expectations.

Dosent HAVE to be this hard, but for those that dont leave mediocre or well enough alone, and want to do it simply because why not. We make it a challenge.

This is a fine example why a single ladder for a series of incremental loads doesn't tell anything. And when you do it multiple times (like 4 times), different results will result whether it's looking at just velocity or on paper. The better approach when you've got 10 loads x4 is to use the OCW approach. Each set of charges is shot on a single POA along a horizontal line so that the groups at each POA can be interpreted relative to each other, looking for groups with least vertical along with a small group.

I suppose one can get that information from these targets with a lot of work by consolidating each shot (like where each #1 shot's POI is relative to POA and the same for each #2 shot, then #3 shot, etc.)

I agree, there is a definition of insanity.. but hey, if we dont push the outer limits what fun is there in being sane. I debated a few methods and just landed on K.I.S.S. fir the trigger time and deal with the results that i get. That said, i am tinkering on range buddy when i can and charting each series, 1-10, POA vs POI for all 4 ladders to find what, if anything, it tells me... ill post em when i get the chance.

 

[ZA206]

Ladder #3 has the best chance of being a good load.

 

[shawn.r2020]

Ladder #3 has the best chance of being a good load.

Ladder 1-4 are all identical; 10 shots in 0.3 gr. powder increased increments low to high. Attempt was to find what powder charge showed a node and load up a batch in that node and work on the next, either seating depth or neck tension... sadly my results were a lot harder to decipher and i cant seem to find a node to go off of.

 

[XLR308]

Ladder 1-4 are all identical; 10 shots in 0.3 gr. powder increased increments low to high. Attempt was to find what powder charge showed a node and load up a batch in that node and work on the next, either seating depth or neck tension... sadly my results were a lot harder to decipher and i cant seem to find a node to go off of.

Pick a known load for whatever caliber you are using, nothing hotroding and load yourself a batch of the best most consistent ammo your capable of.

Then go out and shoot to the best of your ability focusing on fundamentals.

If you still get very erratic results and your sure it's not the rifle or the scope you need more practice before you start trying to decifer ladders and chasing the rabbit down the reloading hole.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

This should help you visualize it better. I measured each number shot from center of the target that was shot, then moved them to be on the same horizontal line.

And then used squares to cover the extreme shots on all four sides of the group dispersion.


Now you can compare the center of each box which would represent the center of each group from your point of aim.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

4, 5, 6, 7, 8 are fairly close to same elevation on center of group.

With 4,5,6 being closer than the rest.

So, if that's what you're looking for in this ladder, there it is.

 

[shawn.r2020]

This should help you visualize it better. I measured each number shot from center of the target that was shot, then moved them to be on the same horizontal line.

And then used squares to cover the extreme shots on all four sides of the group dispersion.


Now you can compare the center of each box which would represent the center of each group from your point of aim.


View attachment 8416105

4, 5, 6, 7, 8 are fairly close to same elevation on center of group.

With 4,5,6 being closer than the rest.

So, if that's what you're looking for in this ladder, there it is.

Rio, you are absolutely brilliant! I appreciate you so much.
I wish i could say i understood how you did that, and what it all means.. but 4-6 or even 4-8 gives me a narrowed charge weight for better testing.
Is there a better method for finding the sweet spot for my barrels harmonics, my goal is to dial in the charge, then work on seating depth as needed.

Ill post up the load data and build list for everyone to hassle me about... just everyone please understand im a broke ER tech new dad with my first child, a 8 month old girl.. god help me.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Rio, you are absolutely brilliant! I appreciate you so much.
I wish i could say i understood how you did that, and what it all means.. but 4-6 or even 4-8 gives me a narrowed charge weight for better testing.
Is there a better method for finding the sweet spot for my barrels harmonics, my goal is to dial in the charge, then work on seating depth as needed.

Ill post up the load data and build list for everyone to hassle me about... just everyone please understand im a broke ER tech new dad with my first child, a 8 month old girl.. god help me.

Your pic was taken straight on and flat. So while it won’t be perfect, it’s close enough.

In mac ios mark up I would take say shot 1 and draw a line from point of aim to point of impact. In all four targets. Then I would just move each line individually to where the POA lines originated on the same cross line on the grid.

That essentially shows where the impacts would be if shot at same POA.

The ends of the lines are the POI. So I would just draw a square that the 4 sides are lined up with the furthest POI they would touch.

 

[shawn.r2020]

For the build list:
Aero reciever set with 16.6" R-one
18" BA 6 ARC SPR Barrel
Aero adjustable gas block
APA Little bastard
Aero enhanced buffer set (H1 if im remembering right)
Geissele SSA-E, mag release, maritime bolt catch, and takedown
Brownells BCG
Vortex Venom 5-25 on a Vortex precision 20 MOA cantilever Aided by a Vortex illuminated bubble
Magpul prs lite, K2, and bipod

Upper receiver, i trued the barrel extension mating surface by hand using brownells tool. Used the proper loctite to bed the extension, aeroshell, and seasoned the threads to 35 or 40 lt/lbs (cant remember off hand).

I put 80 rounds of Hornady Black through it total going through the basic break in process, cleaned it well with a non-etching copper remover. The day of the ladder shots i put another 20 Hornady Match to foul the barrel and sight in the optic.

 

[ZA206]

Ladder 1-4 are all identical; 10 shots in 0.3 gr. powder increased increments low to high. Attempt was to find what powder charge showed a node and load up a batch in that node and work on the next, either seating depth or neck tension... sadly my results were a lot harder to decipher and i cant seem to find a node to go off of.

My bad… I thought you did 10 shot groups of 4 separate powder charges.

 

[robb_va]

Hey ya'll,
My first attempt ever at ladder load testing and im hoping some of you could help me translate the results. I will add in the load data and what shots my lab radar picked up, if needed.
Looking at the target, my shots landed EVERYWHERE, and im finding it really difficult to get any usable info from it.
I shot 4 different identical load increment ladders, all shots numbered 1-10, low charge to high in 0.3 grain increments. Please, someone help me decipher this mess... i really wanna get some ammo loaded and back out on the range.
Thanks

View attachment 8415514

I'd decide on a powder charge that gets you the velocity you want. Load up 3 of each at that charge touching, .020, .040, .060 and .080 off the lands. I'd shoot them at 100 yards. See what looks good and vary the seating depth from there. If you don't see anything that looks good, change the powder that you are using.

 

[shawn.r2020]

The load data i promised:
Hornady once fired brass
Hornady ELD-X 103gr
Federal match SRP
Case length 1.483
Headspaced 1.183
COAL 2.200
Neck tension 0.004
Leverevolution 26.9gr - 29.5gr increased in 0.3gr increments
Loaded using RCBS precision dies

 

[shawn.r2020]

Labradar chrono results:

Shots 1-10, ladder 1-4... i was having issues with the chrono not picking up shots so its lacking data.

Shot 1 - ladder 3 only - X X 2396 X
Shot 2 - ladder 2, 3 - X 2421 2435 X
Shot 3 - ladder 1, 3, 4 - 2459 X 2474 2478
Shot 4 - ladder 2, 4 - X 2484 X 2492
Shot 5 - ladder 1, 2, 4 - 2489 2499 X 2502
Shot 6 - ladder 1, 2, 4 - 2569 2546 X 2562
Shot 7 - ladder 1, 2, 3, 4 - 2603 2582 2569 2550
Shot 8 - ladder 1, 2, 3 - 2574 2570 2594 X
Shot 9 - ladder 1, 2, 3, 4 - 2647 2626 2673 2658
Shot 10 - ladder 1, 2, 3 - 2669 2667 2678 X

FTF's causing case shoulder dents:
Ladder 1, shots 8 and 10 FTF
Ladder 2, shot 9 FTF twice

 

[MarkyMark007]

Please, someone help me decipher this mess... i really wanna get some ammo loaded and back out on the range.

hornady does this for you: https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...loaders-might-not-like-what-they-see.7152297/

 

[shawn.r2020]

hornady does this for you: https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...loaders-might-not-like-what-they-see.7152297/

The fun of it is knowing i can, not whats in stock