Ladder Tests results/ What would u do?(pics)

[Garvey]

I performed these ladder tests yesterday. I did a 168gr. SMK at 300 yards. That will help me in loading the 165gr. SGK for hunting. I also did a 175gr. SMK at 500 yards.

Conditions for the 168gr. 1130 hrs. 91 F, head wind 2-7 mph variable. Toward the end of this test it was 1150 hrs. 93 F, with a 0-2 mph head wind. I had no way of determining barometric pressure or humidity. I didn't think it was very important at this range anyways. (insight on that?) My part of the country is at 500' to 580' above sea level. I did not chronograph these loads by the way. That'll come tomorrow.

Rifle: Savage 10 FLCP-K
Optic: Burris FF II 6.5-20X 50mm (I've got a Bushnell Elite 6500 enroute)
Primer: Win LR
Powder: H-Varget 40.2-44.2gr
O.A.L.: 2.835"
Case: Lake City
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Shot order</span>
1. 40.2gr
2. 40.6gr
3. 41.0gr
4. 41.4gr
5. 41.8gr
6. 42.2gr
7. 42.6gr
8. 43.0gr
<span style="color: #FF0000">9. 43.4gr
10. 43.8gr
11. 44.2gr</span>

Did you notice shot #1? Point of aim was the top center of the duct tape where the marker line intersects, pretty darn good I must say. I should've put 1/4-1/2 minute on the windage but I still stayed plenty close to center.

When I got back home I anylized the target and loaded 3 each of 43.0, 43.2, 43.4, 43.6, 43.8, and 44.0 I figured I was in a 1 grain area so I would just go ahead and see how they group instead of doing a more refined ladder test again. What would you do? Does that seem like a good plan, or am I cutting corners?

<span style="font-weight: bold">Now for the 175 SMK</span>

1300 hrs. 94 F, head wind 2-5 mph

Primer: Win LR
Powder: H-Varget 40.6-45.0gr.
O.A.L.: 2.835"

(I loaded 14 rounds total for this one but since everything went fine with the hotter powder charges for the 168gr. I just skipped the first 6 and renumbered.)

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Shot Number</span>
1. 43.0gr
2. 43.4gr
<span style="color: #FF0000">3. 43.8gr
4. 44.2gr
5. 44.4gr
6. 44.6gr
7. 44.8gr
8. 45.0gr</span>

I know I changed the increment at shot number 5, but it was for safety reasons working up to 45.0. That charge is well above all of my loading books but I was trusting the experience of some Hide members and still excercising caution.

Shot 1, I had no windage dialed in. Shot 2 I dialed in what it SHOULD have been, shot 3 I cut the last windage setting in half. After that I just rolled with it. I have not loaded any subsequent rounds for the 175s yet. I believe the inconsistancies of the shots not all stringing veticle from the last, could have been me and not the load. That's what makes this test useful as well as challenging.

So it appears I'm looking pretty consistant at shots 6, 7, and 8 that's only a .4gr spread. So I think I'll load 3 rounds each of 44.6, 44.7, 44.8, 44.9, and 45.0 Again what would you do here? Of course I want to give the load as much speed as I can get, but I don't want to be torching the barrel either.

Just some fun pics.

You can see the white house door down range that the target was attached to, just to the left of the hay bale.

Through the scope at 20X Definatly had some mirage to contend with.

I had to fire from the truck bed to get above the grass, that'll be more hay. The trailer is for the ATV that took me to the target and back.

 

[DocB]

Re: Ladder Tests results/ What would u do?(pics)

Halligan,

You have to load and shoot at least three, and preferably five rounds of each load to see how well they group. The groups will open up and close back in depending on how close to a tuning node the charge is located.

HTH,
DocB

 

[Garvey]

Re: Ladder Tests results/ What would u do?(pics)

I'm on the fence on loading 3 or 5 for the group testing. I guess I'm reverting back to my old ways. I've had 3 shot groups produce 2 MOA or larger (trash those) and had some that produced 1/4 to 1/2 MOA. It is very apparent why 5 round groups would be better. I guess I was just trying to save time and components, but what's the point if you aren't getting solid data? Thanks for the nudge.

 

[BigDKC]

Re: Ladder Tests results/ What would u do?(pics)

If you weren't seeing any pressure signs, up the charge range a little bit! Also you might have went a little too fine of graduation for a starting work up? (that's just my opinion as you seem to have pretty even placement nothing scientific in that, just a guess).

I just recently did the same test @ 300 with the same loads for the 175smk and same gun (non lefty though). But for my starting work ups I went .5gr steps which might have helped in making the node more clear..?

At 300yds 45/45.5/46gr (shots# 7,8,9) of varget made a clear upper node placement. I also did a 100yd test of the same loads for fun that confirmed it. I will be refining that range in the next tests. I saw no pressure signs all the way up to 46.5 which was the highest charge I loaded, and as you noted well over book max!

My temp/atmos data/elevation was fairly different though. I was in the mid 100's for temp and at almost 900ft elevation with a ton of humidity for what its worth.

(not sure what happened on shot #6, I must have pulled it.)

This is the 300yd target:

 

[Garvey]

Re: Ladder Tests results/ What would u do?(pics)

I wasn't sure the friggin case would hold that much above 45.0 grains it looked pretty full at 45. I guess I'll try a little more.

 

[Alan Griffith]

Re: Ladder Tests results/ What would u do?(pics)

Halligan,

Here is what I would do. This is a tactical rifle, so assuming you're going to be firing strings of shots for your intended purpose, I'd shoot 5-shot groups. And here is how.

Load up your final powder charges in 5-shot groups and shoot a 300-500 yd ladder; preferably 500. Before shooting them, take several magic markers with you and color the ogives of each bullet. Green, blue, red, black are the best as you can easily distinguish the colors between themselves. No yellow, or light colors and no colors that could be confused with the other; ie pink and red, different shades that are too similar are a no-no.

So, if you've got 6 charges, you'll end up with a 30 shot ladder, thus the reason 500 is better than 300. Shoot it just like a normal ladder, as you've done already. If you have a hard time telling the color, take a q-tip dipped in a little rubbing alcohol and swirl it in the bullet hole and it more than likely either leave some color on the q-tip or after the alcohol dries the color in the hole may be "heightened".

You'll basically have a ladder that not only helps you fine tune your nodes but you can also see group size.

Once you finalize your powder charge, then do basically the same thing with different seating depths. Then do it again with different primers. Definately use a chrono at these two stages as you'll be able to see the minute differences in ES and SD a primer will make.

Here is a 1000 yd ladder I shot back in February with my 6.5x47 Lapua.

I was settling on the final powder charge which was in .2 gr increments. I was not just looking for the smallest group but the smallest vertical spread. The group at the bottom right is only 4" vertical spread with a 8 SD. The group in red at the upper left has a 6-3/4" vertical spread with a 5 SD. I went with the second as my final load.

I'm acutally out of sequence. Once you fire the next ladder of 30, then fine tune seating depth, then primer choice, then shoot the 1000 yd ladder in .2 gr increments.

Holler if you need help.

Alan

 

[SSC]

Re: Ladder Tests results/ What would u do?(pics)

If it was me I would start over and do .5gr increments and do the ladder at 500-600 yards. every time i try closer or smaller increments the nodes just don't show up well.

 

[Garvey]

Re: Ladder Tests results/ What would u do?(pics)

Thanks for the replies and the help. I ended up loading 5 shot groups for 43.0, 43.2, 43.4 and so on up to 44.0gr. The best group was 43.2gr but all things considered my groups weren't stellar. I'm going to have to blame that on the dang Lake City brass I was using for the 168gr. pills as opposed to the Remington brass I was using for the 175s at 500 yards. After reviewing the 168 ladder and the 168 group tests there was incosistancies that happened that did not happen with the 175s. Meaning I did not have a steady upward dispersion with the Lake City brass during the ladder and group tests. I did weigh the Lake City brass prior to loading and because of lack of experience I didn't cull the ones I should have. Once I got home I weighed Remington brass and it was way more consistant on weight than the Lake City. So all-in-all I think I need to start over with the 168 ladder test using Remington or Winchester brass and forget about the Lake City stuff.

I noticed while loading some 168s in the Remington brass it felt like the bullet seated more constantly that it did with the Lake City, which tells me the neck tension is more consistant. And no, neither one of the two types of brass had been annealed.

 

[Alan Griffith]

Re: Ladder Tests results/ What would u do?(pics)

Halligan,

Here is the link to Jason Baney's 1000 yd ladder load devleopment.

Alan

http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Ladder Tests results/ What would u do?(pics)

Your test matches up with the findings I've seen from several other ladder tests and confirms the following -

The the person conducting the ladder test doesn't know how to shoot very well.

 

[Garvey]

Re: Ladder Tests results/ What would u do?(pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your test matches up with the findings I've seen from several other ladder tests and confirms the following -

The the person conducting the ladder test doesn't know how to shoot very well. </div></div>

And what you said is BULLSHIT!

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Ladder Tests results/ What would u do?(pics)

Dude - get a clue. When you go UP in powder charge and your POI changes DOWN and LEFT/RIGHT, the results on paper have nothing to do with what was put into the case.

I pulled and marked a ladder test for a guy with a 7 RUM shooting off a bench a few weeks ago. I wrote numbers on the pasters and put them over each shot as he fired to keep them in order.

His least powder load was one of the highest shots and his heaviest powder load was one of the lowest. His test proved that his rifle and he could muster about 2.5 MOA tops no matter what he fed it.

 

[Garvey]

Re: Ladder Tests results/ What would u do?(pics)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GSSP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Halligan,

Here is the link to Jason Baney's 1000 yd ladder load devleopment.

Alan

http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html </div></div>

I read all that thank you.

 

[Garvey]

Re: Ladder Tests results/ What would u do?(pics)

I am by no means an expert or even a person who is at an advanced level at this, but I believe I'm pretty darn good behind a rifle. I'm not perfect, I still have lots to work on like driving the rifle well enough that I can call my own shots. Notice my first shot on the 300 yard test, it was within .1gr of a previous load that did well in the rifle. I dialed in the prescribed elevation in the scope and hit within 1 1/4" of POA. I'll take that any day! I screwed up the test in that I didn't use the same type of brass on the 300 yard as the 500 yard, I accept that. But I'm pretty confident I kept point of aim the same every time. I was in a creek bottom, with high humidity and high heat; therefore the mirage was hard to manage. And it would've been hard for anyone to manage with that scope. I regularly practice WITHOUT a rear bag. So when I'm using a rear bag for load development it fells like I'm cheating because the rifle is so easy to keep steady.

In the end you don't know me, you've never gone shooting with me, and you don't know how many rounds I've sent down the barrel in my lifetime. Therefore I don't appreciate the accusations of not knowing what I'm doing. Sure you've probably got more experience loading and shooting that I do, but you weren't born with that knowledge. You had to educate yourself and practice with your rifle. That is what I'm trying to do here.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Ladder Tests results/ What would u do?(pics)

The ladder test is a pet peeve of mine. You hear it all over the place; kinda the holy grail of Internet lore re: load development.

Ever see LL post ladder test results? NO. Ever see him post videos about producing a repeatable POI using factory ammo and commonly available rifle kit? YES.

No, I don't know you, and I don't mean my comments as a personal attack. There are just so many distractions out there from focusing on the fundamentals of shooting. That is my main point.

If you want to get the most out of your 308, load standard components, a standard load that delivers a velocity that is in the range for the bullet weight/barrel length you are shooting, make them 2.800" long, and figure out how to get a repeatable POI out of your shooting. Ladder tests be damned - load to velocity and learn how to make them go the same place. A good 22 helps a lot.

 

[Garvey]

Re: Ladder Tests results/ What would u do?(pics)

I don't doubt that someone can be accurate with "standard" loads. I've yet to have fired factory ammo that was as accurate and consistant as handloaded ammunition, in the two bolt actions I load for. That being said, I'm the type of person that believes one should continually be trying to improve their abilities in what ever be their endeavor. I've been a welder/ fitter for 15 years and I get better at it every year because of my belief.

As far as shooting goes. I load to shoot not the other way around. I don't enjoy loading my rounds near as much as I enjoy shooting them. Hand loading is just a necessary evil for me. And I am simply trying to find the most effecient way to load my own ammo that will produce consistant results for MY rifle.

I totally agree that one should always be concentrating on the fundamentals of shooting. I do this every time I'm behind my rifle, weather it be load development, hunting, or match shooting. I also have a .22lr bolt action that has only been mine for about a month and a half. I was pleasantly surprised at how much it helped with the fundamentals. I corrected bad habits and picked up some good habits from using the .22lr. And I learned more of what I should and shouldn't be doing by reading and putting into practice what I've read.

 

[AUJohn]

Re: Ladder Tests results/ What would u do?(pics)

Move back to where you can SEE the target. No point having Mirage as a variable. If you MUST do it at a longer range then sight on a closer target lined up with your longer range one. you can then SEE your POA yet still shoot your longer range groups.
Don't play with scope settings. It's another variable. Just shoot.
I would use (and do)3 shot groups for this test, then move to 5's in mutiples at longer ranges once I have a load. Mark the projectiles with different color marker pens and mix the rounds so you are not firing them in order. Removing another variable.

9H's comment is direct and likely helpful if you would take it like that. I got the same impression from reading your posts.
What group sizes do you shoot at 300? Circle your ladder test holes with that sized group. Can you see an issue here?
I doubt you can shoot .5MOA at 300. Even if you can, move the holes up or down by that much. What did you just learn?

Try at 100 or 200 (over here Mirage can be so bad that even 200 is out), shoot 3's to start. Find your group centers and work from that point at longer ranges.
One more thing, attitude is a HUGE problem when it comes to shooting. You will never find a true shooter who talks himself up or pushes himself to be something. They just get out and do it.