Larue .224 Valkyrie
- Thread starter Forgetful Coyote
- Start date
Depends on the length of the barrel. I got 2950 out of a 24" 223 barrel bolt gun at 2.3" OAL and 24 gr 8208.
I think this cartridge will be legit as it is designed to use long bullets at mag length and has pretty much the same case capacity of 223.
When it comes to bolt rifles, Id just go with .22 Dasher if I was looking for something like that. Highly doubt you're gonna beat the accuracy of a Dasher/BRAI/BRX/BRDX with anything outside of a PPC...you MIGHT be able to match it with some of the Grendel based stuff I suppose.
For AR's though, its a pretty cool round. I'd still prefer a Grendel based cartridge though honestly IMHO. Its pretty sweet seeing 90gr MK's in a factory load tho
For AR's though, its a pretty cool round. I'd still prefer a Grendel based cartridge though honestly IMHO. Its pretty sweet seeing 90gr MK's in a factory load tho
I'm on board. 22" Rainier Arms barrel +2 gas suppressed. Will run the 90gr's sure but I want to play with the 60-70gr varmint bullets. Wouldn't mind building a bolt gun off a Remington .223 action and having the bolt face opened up. And if everything just sucks then a new bolt to replace it won't be so bad.
I mean the 224 valk is basically a downsized 6BR:
-same shoulder angle (30 deg)
-approximately same neck length ratio (.25" long neck)
-nearly the same overbore rating (~815)
I expect this cartridge to shoot. But only time will tell if it makes sense over other common cartridges. I like the idea of being able to shoot the better bullets at mag length in an AR and the fact that I should be able to shoot the cheaper ELD-M bullets while being in the mag.
Note: the Grendels use the same parent case as the PPC (.220 Russian). The Grendel is basically an Ackley chamber of the 6PPC stepped up to 6.5mm.
My problem with the Grendel is the fact that it uses the 6.5 bullets that cost 50%-100% more money than the bullets I can shoot in .224", even for the cheapies (75gr BTHP can be bought for like 13 cents and the ELD-Ms are sub 20 cents)
Update:
I did some ballistic comparisons. The 80 ELD-M is nearly the same length as the SMK and the 80 ELD-M ballistics matches the 90 SMK at 2700 nearly identically, if you can get to 2800 FPS. And my experience with 223 I think that will be very easy to accomplish and beat. Even in an 18" gun.
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Ammo and rifles (including barrels) have not been released to consumers yet. There are some social media types who have posted velocity data on 18" and 20" barrels, maybe 22".
Correct. My point regarding the accuracy of a BR/Dasher/BRAI/BRX bolt rifle only being bested by a PPC(*in short range 100/200/300yd BR*) was regarding the benchrest arena really. Many many folks have tried modd'ing the 6 PPC and no one seems to have come up with a better mousetrap yet. Theres the .22 PPC, .22 PPC -.100 short, .220 Beggs, 6 Beggs, 6 PPC -.100 short, 6 Grinch, etc... I do believe the 6 Grinch has seen some success lately . Its basically a 6mm Grendel AFAIK, but its uncharted territory and the plain PPC still dominates. I wont be surprised if someone shows up to the IBS Nationals or Super Shoot sometime with a 6 Grinch that's gotta screamer barrel on it and wins LV, HV, 2-gun agg, etc and then you'll see a whole bunch of folks switch over to the Grinch...but until someone makes a showing like that, I imagine the PPC will stay on the throne.
I think 6mm grinch is basically 6mm Turbo with slightly different body dimensions. I think the 6mm grinch has one a few major BR matches, but has not been adopted widely. I think there is currently a movement to the 6 BRA cartridge as it produces more consistent brass during fireforming and only gives up 25-50 fps over the 6mm Dasher.
But the gist of what i am saying about the .224 Valk is that with I think a 20"-24" barrel the 80 ELD-M is going to be quite formidable. I can definitely see 2900-3100 fps without much issue since I was able to get 2950 fps out of 223 24" gun at not a crazy OAL(would fit in cut metal AR mags) and less case capacity. At 2800 fps they duplicate the ballistics of the 90 SMK at 2700 fps.
Still had around 5-10% case fill left with no pressure signs at all. Also some people are already doing 3000-3100 fps with them out of plain jane 223 guns.
I figure our AR's aren't quite as accurate as our bolt rifles are anyway. So 224V should do nicely and be accurate enough.
IMO, the width of the case, or "lack of" in this situation, if comparing to the Grendels width, gives the 224V an advantage in reliability in the AR platform. As much as I liked my 6mmART40 before, and now the Fat Rat, both uppers weren't/aren't near as reliable as my 223 upper. I just think staying with a case slimmed down as close as possible to what the AR was designed for originally is a superior solution, plus those Cmags for the grendel aren't the highest quality like other brands for the 6.8 that are pretty good.
The wildcat cartridge I tested for the creator of it, which is almost exactly like the 224V, was very reliable and is part of the reason I liked it so much. Well, like I mentioned earlier, with one strong brand of brass, IMI I believe, we could get 2850 fps without excessive pressure signs with 90's in a 24". The inventor of it was pushing 90's just past 2900 fps with slight pressure signs.
Yeah, I'm trying to talk myself into doing a 6BRA for the bolt rifle next because it looks like a wonderful combination for top accuracy, longer barrel life and within .2 mil of 6x47 in normal winds. 31 grains of powder compared to the 43.1 I'm using now too. Plus I like the least rifle movement possible, might even try the 95 TMK in it.
IMO, the width of the case, or "lack of" in this situation, if comparing to the Grendels width, gives the 224V an advantage in reliability in the AR platform. As much as I liked my 6mmART40 before, and now the Fat Rat, both uppers weren't/aren't near as reliable as my 223 upper. I just think staying with a case slimmed down as close as possible to what the AR was designed for originally is a superior solution, plus those Cmags for the grendel aren't the highest quality like other brands for the 6.8 that are pretty good.
The wildcat cartridge I tested for the creator of it, which is almost exactly like the 224V, was very reliable and is part of the reason I liked it so much. Well, like I mentioned earlier, with one strong brand of brass, IMI I believe, we could get 2850 fps without excessive pressure signs with 90's in a 24". The inventor of it was pushing 90's just past 2900 fps with slight pressure signs.
Yeah, I'm trying to talk myself into doing a 6BRA for the bolt rifle next because it looks like a wonderful combination for top accuracy, longer barrel life and within .2 mil of 6x47 in normal winds. 31 grains of powder compared to the 43.1 I'm using now too. Plus I like the least rifle movement possible, might even try the 95 TMK in it.
One reason I dumped all the other AR's that I had something besides 5.56 in was because I could get high reliability out of the P-mags. The metal ones you need to use for all the other cartridges were always rougher and didn't feed as well. Then i got the bug again and built up another 6.5G
If Magpul was going to do 6.8 mags, this would be the way to go to get this to feed better.
FWIW, I found with my .223/5.56 I've gone in reverse back to the 69 gr. bullets. A smidge more velocity and the same ogive profile. This is what I'd be shooting with the Valkyrie as well. Pretty much none of the .224" projectiles have a high enough BC to warrant going heavy. So, I opt for velocity. Which this cartridge can give out of the -15 platform.
It would be a good day when the entire system is optimized in one package, including higher BC bullets, to take full advantage in a -15 platform.
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Velocity discussions aside...if Federal and Hornady are the main proprietors, that would suck. I just finished running rough 500 FC .260 cases and had the worst experience ever. Most of them were only good for the first load because the primer pockets were smoked after that. Any of the cases that I believed were good to go for a second reload ended up being a toss up. If they did fire, they were not going to a third reload. Then there were some that fired but blew the pocket on that firing, caused a malf, and ended up shitting the bed completely.
Of course, I have taken into account that they entire lot may have been bad, but I won't accept that as an excuse. At least Hornady will average 4-5 reloads before shitting the bed. 1-2 reloads is just ridiculous.
Of course, I have taken into account that they entire lot may have been bad, but I won't accept that as an excuse. At least Hornady will average 4-5 reloads before shitting the bed. 1-2 reloads is just ridiculous.
Another option would be to just reform S&B 6.8 spc brass right? Those have super tight primer pockets and are what most people try and use for the 6.8 spc cartridge. I've heard it is very close quality wise to Lapua. Also new S&B brass is like $0.41 cents a round.
I've also heard some mulling that hornady doesn't make their 6.8 spc brass for the hornady marked cartridges and they are the best stuff to use with people reporting like 10 firings on the S&B brass.
I get that, but quite frankly, there's not too many manufacturers offering SPC cases, either. I don't believe S&B components are readily available. I just tried to Google them, but found nothing. Just a quick glance at Midway gave me Hornady, Starline and Remington (unavailable, and will be for a long time), so truly, you have Hornady, Federal and Starline. I remember seeing a bag of SSA 6.8 cases for sale on the web but that was a long time ago. Point being, we may only have shit brass to look forward to...
SSA/Nosler, Hornady, Federal, Starline and S&B becoming more available.
http://www.cavitybackbullets.com/category-s/120.htm
http://www.cavitybackbullets.com/category-s/120.htm
Magpul does make specific 6.8 mags but they require a proprietary upper and lower currently only available from LWRC. LWRC will be releasing Valkyrie rifles, though.
I've been working on trying to convert some 6.8 brass over to Valkyrie and it's not been a straightforwad process so far. I'm getting close to a procedure that works for me, but it has involved trimming the 6.8 case down, pre-annealing the neck and shoulder junction, liberal use of Imperial Sizing Wax, sizing without the neck expander, and then a second sizing with the expander. Without pre-annealing, I'm seeing some odd wrinkles/folding of the brass in the shoulder. I also plan on doing a a post-anneal as I'm moving a lot of brass around and figure that it's going to be pretty work hardened.
Brass is once-fired FC from the 90gr Gold Dot loads.
The wildcat I mentioned earlier, since it was shortened a .10", had the negative of a very thick neck. It gets to be a hassle if you have to ream the inside of the neck to get rid of a donut and/or turn the outside of the neck.
For semi auto, the brass getting banged up and all, I don't like to use it more than 10 times anyway since it gets pretty ratty by then.
I would rather toss out the factory brass after 3-4 four firings, if indeed the 224V factory brass ends up soft. I hope Hornady, Federal, etc, gets their stuff together this time and learns from the 22N mistakes.
For semi auto, the brass getting banged up and all, I don't like to use it more than 10 times anyway since it gets pretty ratty by then.
I would rather toss out the factory brass after 3-4 four firings, if indeed the 224V factory brass ends up soft. I hope Hornady, Federal, etc, gets their stuff together this time and learns from the 22N mistakes.
I was just about to mention this, run the Valk in a LWRC and you should be able to really get the potential of the round.
Unfortunately, this is where we go chasing the rabbit down the hole...the end game being we never get back above ground.
Both are detractors to buying into this round. Same reason the 6.5G languishes. Bill Alexander didn't want to let go of control. If he'd have worked with other companies on licensing, like in bolt guns, you'd see a lot more 6.5G around. So, anyone who wanted to do a 6.5G just changed a few minor things and sold as much as he did.
Magpul may make a 6.8SPC mag, but if it doesn't fit an AR, then it doesn't work for the project intended of building this yourself on an AR.
coyote,
Look at all the extra money you would have to spend. Not worth it IMO.
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Attachments
LWRC offers the upper & lower receiver separately for those who want to build their own ARs.
My point is, while you can get them, they are expensive as hell. It's not like you can just put one together, like all the rest of the AR's. Anything over $1k in parts is a bit much.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/727027833
https://www.lwrci.com/p-501-day-12-six8-a2-upper.aspx#
MAP on the receiver sets is $657, Lipsey's carries them. While I agree that is very high in today's market, without a newly designed metal mag there is no advantage to using the Six8 receivers. The magpul Six8 mags don't allow any longer COAL than a standard cheap CPD 6.8 mag.
You best bet for a longer COAL and staying mag fed is using a mag with the front cut out, http://www.cavitybackbullets.com/product-p/cb-pri-mod-mag.htm
Is it just me or does this seem like a great idea that the people trying to push it just haven't connected all the dots past manufacturing the cartridge itself?
If you are referring to the match you shot this summer, I know exactly where you are coming from. I've never seen your JP run so bad. I don't think you got a clean malfunction free stage all day.
I remember you were blowing primers.
You got it brother. It was those damn cases all along. The only other FC I have reloaded were .308 cases, which doesn't have the obvious pressure that my .260 does, so I did not have any primer pocket issues then. Then again, I never had any primer pocket issues with any .308 brass...
The most concerning aspect was that I run a relatively light load in that JP and yet the pockets were going out, regardless.
I don't like running Lapua brass in the AR so I went and grabbed a few hundred .243 cases made by Winchester. Thus far, they have been fine, though I don't have more than 3 loads on them.
I got the new Creedmoor (bolt gun) up and running, but I have too much fun running the JP, so you'll probably see me running that bad boy again next match.
Those gassers are just way too much fun.
I have my 6.5 Creedmoor and now I've added a 6.5 Grendel to the bunch. I love them both. They are so damn fun to shoot. Brock at MCM has my Grendel right now hitting it up with a spiffy cerakote job.
You definitely rock your gasser at matches brother...
I have my 6.5 Creedmoor and now I've added a 6.5 Grendel to the bunch. I love them both. They are so damn fun to shoot. Brock at MCM has my Grendel right now hitting it up with a spiffy cerakote job.
You definitely rock your gasser at matches brother...
I have a reamer on the way, I’m looking forward to playing with this one. I just built a 6mm Fat Rat (6mm in a blown out Grendel case) for a friend, it’s going to be an interesting comparison.
Keep us posted. Every time I run the numbers the 6mm looks better but I could be wrong.
It's probably going to be in the 4000 range??? Lots of guys getting 6000 out of their 223's and the 224V only holds approx 4 grains more powder.
Barrel life should be pretty good. One of the video's I've seen from Federal was talking about brass case life being good due to operating pressures being lower than 5.56/223, so it's possible that it may even surpass those.
