Night Vision laser system advise

[codyb]

Could some of you fellas with experience advise me on questions I should be asking and things I should be looking for when purchasing a used atilla, DBAL, or PEQ15?

I plan on running it with a pvs 14 and would like to use it hunting at night. What are realistic distances for a set up like this on coyote, pigs, n such?

 

[softcock]

Re: laser system advise

I usually only hunt coyotes . No piggies around here.
I have used the atilla & peq's @ night hunting . You would be happy with either one of those & running a pvs14 on your head . They both have nice focus beam IR supplement & good Lasers with visual clean pronounce dots .
The peq2a is a good choice . it is a little longer in length than the atilla or the newer 15 model but it is 'pretty flat' and sits low enough to just run right in front of your Eotech & not cut-off any of the Reticule with it when you use both on the on-top full length of Rail on your AR . The peq2a are more plentiful since they have been replaced by the newer models & you see them more pop up For Sale once in a while .

You will have No problems with good shot placement on hitting anything in a 100 yrd. with just a laser dot placement . It is a rarity that I ever pop a shot off more than 150 yrd with the EO and the PVS-14 on my head running a PEQ . But shots are usually real close @ night & sometimes silly close .
The more you shoot @ night the more you will start to trust the Laser more & just run with it with shots . Sometimes I will tip my head with pvs & look @ the Eotech when making a shot . but just paint & point mostly now if it is 100 yrd. or under .
Also the Eotech or any other Reflex sight is a good idea to have on top if just for Co-Witness and making sure your Laser POA is GTG with the Reflex Ret. .
.

 

[codyb]

Re: laser system advise

I like the idea of being able to co-witness. I think I'll give that a try.

Do you think I would be better served with the IR supplement on my helmet and just using a good laser on the weapon? To my way of thinking I would always have the extra light pointing the way I was looking, but I have no experience in the matter.

I am thinking I could do a good laser for 800 and put the 800
+ I save into an helmet mounted IR.

 

[softcock]

Re: laser system advise

No, on the Helmet mount IR . had it but never used it .

Put IR supplement on your rifle , 'with also' . for the best results I get is to have a surefire hand-held IR beam that hangs on me with neck-lanyard .
When you are sitting/standing in-wait you keep your movement & noise down to a minimum with just head and neck movement when looking . Use the Hand-held periodically to hit the real shady growth areas . Or catch a pair of eyes & getting them to POP in sight @ a distance . Or use the hand-held with your for Foot travel 'if' needed .
.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: laser system advise

I think this YouTube video illustrates what softcock said. The shooter is using a DBAL, but without the illuminator and only the aiming lasers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF8MD8kRtos&feature=fvsr

 

[codyb]

Re: laser system advise

Thanks for the video OEJ!

I thinks it looks like that way to go when using my PVS 14. I have been trying a bunch of diffenent options that I had on hand, but nothing looks like it will work as well as an IR laser.

OEJ if you ever happen to be down south and still wanting to play with a pvs 14. I would be willing to make mine available to you.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: laser system advise

Thanks for the invitation, codyb, but my PVS-14 should be in my hands sometime next week!! Real experience instead of online information.

 

[codyb]

Re: laser system advise

I'm sure you'll enjoy it like I have mine.

Perhaps you have better luck using it with your S&B.

I find when I try n run mine behind a low power scope that I lose to much light for it to be useful and if I run it in front the point of impact on my optic is approx 5' lower than it's true zero.

I should be receiving a new IR laser and aimpoint that will help with an aiming solution. I can't wait to check it out on the local "dog" population.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Re: laser system advise

Thanks for the post IR-V.

We too think the Atilla is one the best units out there form the basic fact one can adjust the independent power levels of the aimer and illuminator for different mission requirements.

While I've been using these units for many years now, I personally have issues with the ARMS mounts on different rails along with the manipulation of the power level tabs. They're tiny and in cold weather with gloves sometimes poses issues.

ITT actually developed the original Atilla in which Night Vision Equipment Company, then DRS and now NIVISYS purchased the rights of these units.

The only difference of opinion I have is your thinking of animals you have suggested seeing in the IR. We've worked with numerous animal biologist over the years and it's a one of my favorite subjects....Of all critters out there, the only one proven to seeing in the near IR, is actually snakes. Nothing has been proven that Yotes, Deer, Hogs etc. can see in the IR. What I'm guessing your critters are seeing is smelling or just plain seeing you or the faint visible red glow from your emitters of some sort.

Either way, love the Atilla, just hate the integral ARMS mount on some of my platforms that are too loose or too tight. (Please, this is not a QD bash of ARMS or any others, I just wish I had other options with this great laser).

 

[shooter6.5]

Re: laser system advise

What mount comes with the civilian version DBAL?

Interesting about the snakes.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Re: laser system advise

Thanks for the response, I am intrigued by your findings.

As you probably aware there is still visible glow from IR lasers at the emitter, (please, NO ONE look into your IR lasers) and I am guessing this may be part of what the critters may be seeing?

I enjoy the tests you're conducting but I have yet to duplicate your findings with my Atilla's, GCP's, APTIAL's, and DBAL's. Not tried it with B.E. Meyer kit though.

With that said, I have NOT shined any of these units onto deer. Only Yotes, Foxes, Hogs, Bears, and hawks that have landed in fields. I spooked more Yotes from the visible red emitter glow of our IR LED Torch and some from our GCP's with wide dispersion illumination, but once again even though the visible glow is narrower at the emitter in IR lasers vs. IR LED's, the visible portion can still be seen which I suspect my be causing this. Not 100%, but one thing is for sure, something appears to be spooking your critters.

Have you talked with any other biologists about your findings?

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Re: laser system advise

Please keep me posted on your findings, PM if need be. I would like to see more studies done. So far the scientific community in which I talked with that study critters eye's say it's not possible. But I'm beginning to wonder about a few things with your findings in regards to beam dispersion, power and angle of attack of your direction of IR energy in relation to the critters position and also the ambient lighting environment itself along with temperature.

As for your IZLID-1000P, gotta just love lighting up those hill sides a few miles out!

 

[codyb]

Re: laser system advise

Thank you for the information IR-V.

The Atilla was my front runner but now I'm unsure.

You have now given me a new quandary with the results of your test. I can't have my subjects running off every time I aim at them, now can I.

After reading the dialog between you and Vctor it is obvious to me I need a bit more research.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Re: laser system advise

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hogrider</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What mount comes with the civilian version DBAL?

Interesting about the snakes. </div></div>

Sorry, lost this in the shuffle. The new LDI Civilian Class 1 comes with LDI's propriety QD mount. It works VERY well. http://www.tnvc.com/shop/ldi-dbal-i2-class-1-ir-laser/

Vic

 

[Chris dore]

Re: laser system advise

Looking for DBAL A2, black green visible laser..any good leads im me..thanks

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Re: laser system advise

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IR-V</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The black ones are typically from production for "law enforcement" use. Interestingly, I have observed many more of these to develop technical problems and component failures than the ones from or diverted from production for military contracts. What that means, I'll let you decide.

The U.S. Military entity that procures and issues the DBAL is the U.S. Army - and they are all "Foliage" color with the 5 mW red laser (on the visible laser). The "Foliage" color is actually more a shade of gray. The primary reason for the visible laser is to assist in aligning the IR laser aimer with the rifle bore sans night vision equipment. Because of the nature of the trajectory of the 5.56x45mm NATO round, the M16 Rifle / M4 Carbine can be "bore sighted" at 25 meters to set for battle zero at 250 meters. Thus, the lower, "eye safe" power @ 5 mW on the visible laser is sufficient for the DBAL per their acquisition specifications. Smaller-sized green lasers typically use a "double pump" technology which is sensitive to extremely high or low temperatures, affecting the intensity and reliability of the laser in very hot or cold temps. For that reason, the military procurements generally avoid "green" wavelengths on the smaller, visible, laser designators such as those found on the PEQ-15, PEQ-15A, and PEQ-14.

But, "if you gotta' have a black one," they do show up with some regularity (in the A3 variant even) on the various internet auction and firearms auction sites -<span style="color: #FF0000">]either as police department trade-ins to the entity reselling the devices, or as sales from individual LE who have retired from or separated from service.</span>

IR-V

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charliedelta1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looking for DBAL A2, black green visible laser..any good leads im me..thanks </div></div> </div></div>

Must correct you here...While this sounds legit, IR FDA Restricted units such as DBALS, APTIALS etc., are NOT allowed to ever be re-sold, given away or transferred to a non qualified agency/persons. Each and every unit has S/N attached to the drop shipment to the agency where the agencies sign strict agreements that the units cannot be re-sold, traded etc. Every year audits are done along with spot audits at any time to see what units are where in the LE communities.

There was was ONE federal agency who made a boo-boo selling of a load full of DBAL's a few years ago. We get phone calls every month to see if these units can ever be serviced which brings me to the next point.

If any units are obtained through NON-OFFICIAL channels, if anything every goes wrong with the unit, they become and expensive Air Soft look alike sorta speak. No manufacturer will repair the unit, nor will you ever get it back from them if you blindly send it in. Hope this helps.

 

[karux408]

Re: laser system advise

IR-V ,
Can you point me to an online version of Federal Statute or policy backing up this assertion?

"Some IR lasers (particularly the Class IV ones) are actually restricted by the FDA regs to DOD only."

 

[karux408]

Re: laser system advise

IR-V, because I desire to ensure secondary market purchases do not violate federal and local law, I asked for the citations. Thanks for the references. based on my understanding, the references specify FDA manufacturing, labeling, and end-user usage restrictions. Due to the myriad productive uses of laser technology, existing federal statutes do not ban civilian transfer and possession.

I also now understand devices not complying with FDA regulations may be sold to DOD, but DOD cannot transfer the devices outside the entity without modification or waiver.


thanks for the info!