Gunsmithing Laws for gunsmiths

[tcaddell]

I am sure that this question has been asked before so don’t crucify me for asking it again. I have been into working on
My OWN guns for the past 2 years, bolt guns barrel changes and action truing mainly. Lately I have been asked by several people to build them complete rifles, both by close friends and by some that I really don’t know. So far I have turned them all down because I the laws that I have read aren’t real clear on what is legal and what isn’t. I know that it takes a lawyer to really get a good answer on this but was hoping that some of the smiths out there that do this full time could shed some light on this before I spend the money on attorneys fees and paperwork. Thanks for the input

 

[Wannashootit]

You do not need an FFL for "occasional" work on others' firearms.
This changes when done principally "for livelihood and profit".
Do it on occassion, with their components- and you're fine.

That said, there is no specific definition of "how often"- but a few rifles per year shouldn't be an issue. A few per month certainly would be.

 

[Matches Malone]

If you’re willing to spend money on a answer then I’m assuming that you taking money from these friends. See the post above ^.

If you are making money that the IRS would question you will for sure want to get an FFL. If it’s a one time deal, then it will be fine.
If its you just doing the work, and you are using your buddies components and there’s no compensation, then you don’t need a FFl.

When Do Gunsmiths Need a Firearms Manufacturing License? « Daily Bulletin

When does a gunsmith become a firearms manufacturer? That's an important legal question that professional gunsmiths need to consider. Normally, a gunsmith (with an FFL) can receive firearms, chamber/fit barrels, do bedding jobs, and install stocks without requiring a firearms ma...

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

That article discusses a FFL licensed gunsmith "upgrading" to a manufacturers FFL, nothing with hobby to FFL.

FFLs are crazy cheap....just fill out some documents, take some pictures, take some fingerprints, mail off and wait for the BATFE phone call to schedule your meeting.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[LRI]

You do not need an FFL for "occasional" work on others' firearms.
This changes when done principally "for livelihood and profit".
Do it on occassion, with their components- and you're fine.

That said, there is no specific definition of "how often"- but a few rifles per year shouldn't be an issue. A few per month certainly would be.

^ This is how I have always understood it to be as well. If your friends are physically in your presence as you build it then it isn't a leap to state that the the two of you did it together. -not a whole lot different than two friends working on a car or whatever.

In reality the BATFE has much bigger fish to deal with than a guy with a shop who beds a stock or chambers an occasional barrel for a friend.

 

[pucker]

Doesn’t this “kitchen table FFL” effectively remove your 4th amendment protections of your home...allowing ATF to enter and search your house anytime they want?

I read that somewhere when I was considering this years ago, and was enough to reconsider.... at least from out of my home.

 

[LRI]

Doesn’t this “kitchen table FFL” effectively remove your 4th amendment protections of your home...allowing ATF to enter and search your house anytime they want?

I read that somewhere when I was considering this years ago, and was enough to reconsider.... at least from out of my home.

It's not a blanket warrant to search your house. From time to time the BATFE conducts a compliance audit. Inspectors (not agents) show up unannounced, flash their credentials, and then review your books and your inventory. If your foolish enough to store a receiver next to the misses "unmentionables" then that's on you. The cycle for this is up to 1 per year assuming your not under any sort of investigation.

The law exists that way because the process literally shuts your business down. Nothing in, nothing out. If the agency was allowed to have unrestricted access whenever they want, then people could be targeted and ruined financially. That isn't the intent or the pathway to commerce, a healthy economy, etc...

The people who "don't know" much about this stuff take it as Uncle Sugar crawling into our lives or whatever. Maybe it is to some degree, but FFL licencees serve a purpose in the grander scheme of things. In the event that a firearm is used in a crime, the audit trail begins once the gun is recovered. It'll start with the manufacturer, who then sold it to X, who later sold it to Y, and so on. The A/D books provides this information.

That is why there is no "formal" national firearms registry. - It already exists and its why the audit is taken very seriously and can be a very stressful experience if you don't have your shit together.

 

[smoothy8500]

If your friends are physically in your presence as you build it then it isn't a leap to state that the two of you did it together.

So in other words, your friends can't leave without taking the rifle back with them-Correct?

 

[MK20]

Not necessarily from what I understand.

 

[Supersubes]

So in other words, your friends can't leave without taking the rifle back with them-Correct?

Yes

 

[MK20]

No. If you are in the same state and not doing it for profit, there should be no problem leaving the gun with you.

 

[tcaddell]

Thanks for all the feedback I appreciate it

 

[dirtdigger300]

Doesn’t this “kitchen table FFL” effectively remove your 4th amendment protections of your home...allowing ATF to enter and search your house anytime they want?

I read that somewhere when I was considering this years ago, and was enough to reconsider.... at least from out of my home.

I have a FFL and run it out of my house. I was told they can only inspect the areas I designated as doing business(such as my kitchen table and where I store my records and lock up the firearms) and they can only come for inspections during the designated business hours.

 

[Steel head]

No. If you are in the same state and not doing it for profit, there should be no problem leaving the gun with you.

In Washington that would be a no bueno.
you can’t have a firearm not owned by you or lent to you without a background check/transfer.

 

[Messmaker]

In Washington that would be a no bueno.
you can’t have a firearm not owned by you or lent to you without a background check/transfer.

Not completely true. There are exceptions to that law and knowing what to say is important.

 

[MK20]

Well, I live in a state that recognizes certain God given freedoms and doesn’t let its cities fill with homeless, needles, feces, and tent cities.
P.S. I live in Wyoming. It’s awesome.
@Bender

 

[Bender]

Well, I live in a state that recognizes certain God given freedoms and doesn’t let its cities fill with homeless, needles, feces, and tent cities.
P.S. I live in Wyoming. It’s awesome.
@Bender

No!!!

WYOMING SUCKS! Stay AWAY!

SNOW IN MAY? YES! EVERY YEAR!!

 

[Average guy]

No!!!

WYOMING SUCKS! Stay AWAY!

SNOW IN MAY? YES! EVERY YEAR!!

Definitely worst state there is. Everyone should find a better option. Winter all year long

 

[clcustom1911]

Definitely worst state there is. Everyone should find a better option. Winter all year long

The winds are terrible and the hunting/fishing sucks too. Would definitely never go back there. @Bender proves the people are asshols too. Don't wanna go ever again.

 

[Average guy]

The winds are terrible and the hunting/fishing sucks too. Would definitely never go back there. @Bender proves the people are asshols too. Don't wanna go ever again.

Did I mention the state is full of anti gun residents. Pure hell

 

[LRI]

So in other words, your friends can't leave without taking the rifle back with them-Correct?

As I understand it, context plays a big role here. For instance:

I have a client that upon taking delivery of a new rifle, he immediately hands it to a friend of his who will spend the time working up the load and getting a baseline zero. Whatever arrangement there is does not involve me so I stay out of it. Neither is hurting for cash, so my guess is its just two gun nuts who are getting each other off.

The lesson here is there's no attempt to engage in profitable gain and both are residents of the same state. No money and no interstate commerce. -no crime.

The flip side to this:

If this guy was actively advertising as an ammunition company offering custom load development with no licensing effort of any kind, the list of laws broken would cramp your hands up good if you had to write it all down.

Gunsmithing as a hobby is really no different. What two guys do in a garage is nobody's business. It's no different than working on a car or whatever. However, the moment someone hangs a sign outside and puts a cash register on the counter, everything changes.

 

[308pirate]

Not completely true. There are exceptions to that law and knowing what to say is important.

I don't know shit about Washington firearm laws, but the one thing I do know is that it pays to read the fine print.

 

[Steel head]

I don't know shit about Washington firearm laws, but the one thing I do know is that it pays to read the fine print.

The only loophole I can possibly see is if you take a firearm from some to prevent the from harming themselves or others.
I’m not planning on spewing a lie to borrow a friends gun.
I don’t see any secret code word or statement that could properly be used.

All scenarios are covered and clear.

All transfers(where you have the firearm and owner isn’t present)or sales private to private require a background check.

 

[308pirate]

The only loophole I can possibly see is if you take a firearm from some to prevent the from harming themselves or others.
I’m not planning on spewing a lie to borrow a friends gun.
I don’t see any secret code word or statement that could properly be used.

All scenarios are covered and clear.

All transfers(where you have the firearm and owner isn’t present)or sales private to private require a background check.

I don't have a dog in this fight.

 

[Steel head]

I don't have a dog in this fight.

I know.
There is no fine print in the laws as I tead them.
Just stating I think the comments about what to say are bullshit.

 

[308pirate]

I know.
There is no fine print in the laws as I tead them.
Just stating I think the comments about what to say are bullshit.

1. I admitted I know nothing about Washington law. Nevertheless, by reading the "fine print" I've been able to uncover a significant number of misinterpretations and outright errors in what others tell me about my own state's firearm laws. That was the point.

2. Someone else in this very thread thinks you're wrong in your interpretation. Presumably he too is a Washington resident. So who do we believe?

 

[Steel head]

1. I admitted I know nothing about Washington law. Nevertheless, by reading the "fine print" I've been able to uncover a significant number of misinterpretations and outright errors in what others tell me about my own state's firearm laws. That was the point.

2. Someone else in this very thread thinks you're wrong in your interpretation. Presumably he too is a Washington resident. So who do we believe?

Santa
Believe Santa Claus.
Lol

I think a lot of people interpret something to fit their wants.
I just read the regulations again, I’d just like to borrow or lend a rifle to a friend for whatever reason.
It was pretty clear there’s no honest way of doings so Without a a background check.
No clauses, exceptions and only one specific circumstance.

 

[j741]

Not completely true. There are exceptions to that law and knowing what to say is important.

@Messmaker , Please share on what to say, or any other details you have.

As with @Steel head , I'm not aware of any exceptions to the WA State laws around this. If there are any, would very much appreciate hearing the details.

 

[Messmaker]

@Messmaker , Please share on what to say, or any other details you have.

As with @Steel head , I'm not aware of any exceptions to the WA State laws around this. If there are any, would very much appreciate hearing the details.

Skip down to page 5 and the exemptions are listed. One of which is a gunsmith to do “repair work”

http://leg.wa.gov/House/Committees/OPRGeneral/Documents/2014/I-594Summary.pdf

 

[Steel head]

Skip down to page 5 and the exemptions are listed. One of which is a gunsmith to do “repair work”

http://leg.wa.gov/House/Committees/OPRGeneral/Documents/2014/I-594Summary.pdf

Lol
What gunsmith doesn’t have a FFL?

Hardly a way to legally borrow or lend a rifle.

 

[Messmaker]

Also states about about borrowing for self defense and hunting. Just an FYI but the title of the thread is laws for gunsmiths.

Lol
What gunsmith doesn’t have a FFL?

Hardly a way to legally borrow or lend a rifle.

 

[Steel head]

Also states about about borrowing for self defense and hunting. Just an FYI but the title of the thread is laws for gunsmiths.

You for sure need a federal license to be a gunsmith if you do any building or modifications for sale.

 

[Messmaker]

You for sure need a federal license to be a gunsmith if you do any building or modifications for sale.

I understand that.

 

[Blutroop]

The only loophole I can possibly see is if you take a firearm from some to prevent the from harming themselves or others.
I’m not planning on spewing a lie to borrow a friends gun.
I don’t see any secret code word or statement that could properly be used.

All scenarios are covered and clear.

All transfers(where you have the firearm and owner isn’t present)or sales private to private require a background check.

These are the words of a beaten man. Reading stuff like this makes me sad for America. If we all don’t stand as one soon for the constitution there won’t be much real America left.

 

[Bully]

No dog in the fight.
However...
I'm in NJ. In my state there is really no legal way to have a firearm that isn't yours without the owner being present. It's just the way it is. Getting all uppity and saying how the country is going down the tubes, or my personal favorite: "you should move" is some of the silliest crap I can think of. No one knows why others live and work where they do EXCEPT that person. Vilifying them is truly counter productive.

If you want to barrel an action for a friend, just get some coffee going and get to work with him present and surfing on his phone right next to you. If you can't finish the work that day, un-hook the parts from what ever machine that they are hooked up to and send them home with him to return another day. In my state, that's the only way it would work. And don't take compensation.

I'm currently pursuing an FFL. I am hoping to ride out the COVID storm as the State Police here have to be involved as well as the ATF. The NJSP are simply not answering their phone or returning calls. Shitty timing on my part, but who knew.

@tcaddell Good luck in your hobby.