LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

[fdkay]

As the title suggests, I am looking for info on agencies using cartridges other that .308/.223 as primary sniper rifles.

I would also like to know, for those that are using something else, is it an agency provided weapon or a personally owned duty weapon.

I am currently using a 5R Mil-Spec, I will rebarrel it within a year. It shoots just fine, but I am an anal retentive sort and want something that shoots even better.

I work for an agency that refuses to supply my ammo since it is not an agency issued weapon. I am also poor. Therefore, when considering ammo, price is a factor.
I am seriously considering a 6.5 CM. Ammo is only slightly higher than 168 FGMM (when bought at Palmetto). It also outperforms the .308 at long range. I hope to eventually save enough scratch to attend a match at rifles only (I live about an hour away)so long range performance is also a consideration.

 

[Roddd]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

Would they issue you a 308?

 

[jackinfl]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

fdkay,

I do not know of any agencies in my area using anything other than .308 or .223. Except for .50 and .338 Lapua but that is special application.

On another note and I am trying to understand, not pointing fingers. But you are a sniper and you use your own rifle and ammo? That would not fly down here. Own rifle yes, but the pd would definitely supply the ammo. Duty and training ammo would be the same for the bolt guns.

I would suggest this. Reload your own ammo. I produce my own ammo that mirrors our Hornady 168 AMAX TAP round. Also, being an hour away from Rifles Only, I'd open up lines of communication. They really are great people that share so much information.

In reference to .308 my son's 20" Remington hit the 1k plates no problem when we used the M118LR, 175 grain SMK rounds. I don't think your 5R will be an issue, it's a 24" .308 right???

Jack

 

[JUNO]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I work for an agency that refuses to supply my ammo since it is not an agency issued weapon. </div></div>

Would they supply the ammo if they supplied the weapon?...

I personally would not want to be purchasing my own ammo, expense and the question of liability.
I assume you would have to practice with same ammo you carry. I'd hate to know the department has no ties to the weapon or ammo that I would be shooting in an unfortunate event.
Kinda relieves all their liability issues and has you answering all the questions in such event, i.e. training, weapon, ammunition or in event of an accident with weapon or ammunition.

 

[fdkay]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

Yes, if they provided the weapon, they would provide the ammo. They won't provide the weapon, so that is a non-starter.

I should have provided a few more details. The 5R in question is a .308. I purchase factory ammo to carry for "duty" and reload to mimic that load. I fire cold bore shots with the factory ammo during training to ensure zero.

I do all my own training, I usually hit the range once a month, frequently more often.

Yes, I disagree with them. They should provide at least duty ammo just from a liability standpoint. Their attitude is that we have never needed a sniper, and we'll never use one.
I was really surprised when they paid for my class.

 

[z-man]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

Secret Service uses 300 win for their snipers, they used 7 mm rem mag for a long time before that, only one I know off Z.

 

[Flatland308]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

In my area it is .308 is the round of choice and i carry my personal TRG-22 at work. My agency at least provides my ammo which works. I am skeptical of agencies that will not at least provide ammo as it says a lot about the training investment in their personnel or lack thereof.

 

[RyanScott]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

I'd be thinking more about barrier/glass penetration than long range ballistics.

 

[Graham]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

CT brief/white paper/.338.. just sayin '

BTW, what's all this talk about liability with regard to ammo? The issue is whether deadly force was appropriate under the circumstances, not what bullet the bad guy was shot with.

 

[Mustafa]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

I'm failing to understand why you would need a 6.5cm. Sure it is easier to shoot long range, but as a police sniper, is that really a concern? As I understand it, you are not really going to be expected to make a shot past 400 yards. I just don't see how the 6.5cm is going to be better at that close a range, especially since most police engagements are well within 100 yards. I think I would prefer to stick with a .308 for larger round/better energy transfer/more damage to the target.

The barrier penetration is a very good point as well. I think it might be better to look for a round that has better penetration, instead of ease of long range (over 600 yards) performance.

 

[Pusher591]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

Stick with the 308, as a "Work" gun it will do everything you need it to do.

If you did have to use it at work, remember all the defense has to do is create doubt and that could put you in a pretty bad light with the jury or judge.

If you want to compete, just do a switch barrel set up. The bolt face and magazines are the same so you can shoot 308 while on duty and if you have a comp coming up just switch the barrel out.

 

[Graham]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pusher591</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you did have to use it at work, remember all the defense has to do is create doubt and that could put you in a pretty bad light with the jury or judge.</div></div>Doubt about what?

Have a look at some typical issues:
http://www.aele.org/long-honolulu.html

 

[Pusher591]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

Create doubt that the round chosen was a bad idea due to something bad they may have happen during the shoot, ie: overpenetration,underpenetration and the suspect taking action after round did not penetrate, failure to ballistically perform.

You can run it if you want to but I've been in the hot seat before and if you don't have your ducks in a row prepare to be hammered.

I'm really thinking more along the lines of civil legalities, it ALOT easier to win a civil case then a criminal case.

If it is in fact a "bad" shoot, in a civil case all the defense had to do is create doubt that maybe the round that was used was a poor choice and out of the ordinary for the majority of police applications and your ass will be broke.

Just my humble opinion, but if your comfortable taking on that liability then have at it.

 

[wIg SpLiTtEr]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

Run 6.5's. As you said their both affordable for you as well as effective

 

[Graham]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pusher591</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Create doubt that the round chosen was a bad idea due to something bad they may have happen during the shoot...If it is in fact a "bad" shoot, in a civil case all the defense had to do is create doubt that maybe the round that was used was a poor choice and out of the ordinary for the majority of police applications and your ass will be broke. </div></div>No offense, but that's not how it works.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

I think a scoped AR in 556 would be a better choice... think

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Squad_Designated_Marksman_Rifle


P.S. sorry about it being wiki, but I just didn't feel like looking further

 

[Pusher591]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

How am I making that up?

You have no clue who I am or what I do but I can tell you I have seen the doubt created first hand by a very good attorney who attempted basically the same argument. It involved a shooting within my department and I had first hand knowledge of the incident and trial hearings. I suggest you figure out who your calling out before you end up looking like more ignorant then you already do.

For the record, the civil trial in our case was dropped but after it was over the judge did indicate the defense had a very strong case but there were other things that helped our case to reach the outcome it did.

Are you even law enforcement, because if your not you have no idea the scrutiny you face after legally taking someones life and I would choose not to use a 6.5 Creedmoor round as a duty round because I'm not going to give anyone, anymore gas to throw on the fire if the shoot goes bad.

 

[Graham]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pusher591</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have no clue who I am or what I do</div></div>Yes I do: It's in your profile. But I'm not judging you as a person, I'm simply looking at what you posted.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pusher591</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you even law enforcement, because if your not you have no idea the scrutiny you face after legally taking someones life</div></div>The argument that 'if you're not a cop you don't understand' is lost on me: Many people who are not in law enforcement have an idea of the scrutiny one faces after legally taking a life.

 

[Pusher591]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

Graham, how about you use the 6.5 Creed and I'll stick with my 308. Or even better as FM stated, a 223 has always done what I needed it to do.


Also Graham, give me one area the 6.5 would excel over the 308 IN A LAW ENFORCEMENT justifiable shooting scenario?

Also why would you want to run a round that would most likely be considered by a person who has no idea about firearms (Jury or Judge) as a high powered round? I mean Hornady did advertise the round as "rocket fuel for your 308".

It not hard to sway an uninformed mind, and most of the time that's what sits on a jury.

 

[Graham]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pusher591</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> give me one area the 6.5 would excel over the 308 IN A LAW ENFORCEMENT justifiable shooting scenario?</div></div>I'm not arguing for a specific caliber, I'm saying that the caliber doesn't really matter. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pusher591</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It not hard to sway an uninformed mind, and most of the time that's what sits on a jury. </div></div>I believe in juries - in the common sense of the American people - it's my job to inform them and that's why I pick them as often as I can get them.

BTW, in my experience sometimes it's harder to sway an uninformed mind.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

hell Pusher, I'll give a theoretical legal argument for WHY to use the 6.5 Creedmoor...

The 308 Winchester is the commercial equivalent to the 7.62x51mm NATO round. It was introduced to the market in 1952, as a hunting cartridge, and adopted in 1954 by NATO as a combat cartridge. While the cartridge is still used my the military and hunters, it has been surpassed in competition, by cartridges which offer better external ballistics, and therefore better accuracy.

6.5 Creedmoor being one of these, it was introduced in 2007 and have since proven itself as greatly superior to the 308, to the point that it is excluded from some rifle completion, so as not to give a competitor and unfair advantage over those who shoot the 308.

since when I fire my rifle on duty, lives are on the line, I believe that having the latest technology is imperative to my mission of saving lives.

Having the most accurate round I can, chambered in the most accurate rifle I can have, with the best optic available, allows me to accurately deliver precision fire, which in the unfortunate event that said fire is needed, is the best option to save as many lives as possible

 

[Pusher591]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

Not gonna argue with you or debate, while your point is valid I know your reasoning for wanting to debate it with ME and I'm not gonna turn the OP's thread into another one of "those" threads.

I respectfully choose to use .223 or .308, if you want to use the 6.5 have it, as long as you can justify that's fine but in this liberal society I choose not to provide them any ammunition. By using the standard rounds used for Law Enforcement That's just one less thing I have to justify.

 

[Graham]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pusher591</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not gonna argue with you or debate,</div></div>Hmmm... 'could have fooled me:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pusher591</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I suggest you figure out who your calling out before you end up looking like more ignorant then you already do.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pusher591</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...in this liberal society I choose not to provide them any ammunition.</div></div>Ammunition to whom? And for what? I don't see your point, except that you want to retract your statement and at the same time still claim to have been right all along.

I have to justify my actions to the public on a regular basis. It's not the fault of Liberals, it's simply a requirement of being a public servant.

BTW, why would it be a given that you would never have to justify the use of a .308? That, too, is not how it works.

 

[Pusher591]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

I meant I was not going to debate it with FM due to other debates we have had that turned into one of those typical Internet arguments.

Not retracting anything, I told FM it was a valid point he made I just still prefer to use the standard round to avoid taking on any EXTRA liability.

Even though I believe FM to have a valid point, I still do not believe the 6.5 can do anything better in a LAw Enforcement scenario. The last average yardage engagement i believe is 52 yards, how more accurate can a 6.5 vs 308 at 53 yards can you be. I'm looking at it from a standpoint the shoot goes bad.

Guys, I'm not mad or irritated I just dont care for your claim that "I was making it up, considering I've been there, and done that."

 

[Graham]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

I didn't mean to say that you made-up where you've been or what you have done, what I meant was that while being there and doing that you didn't get an accurate understanding of liability or how it attaches.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

and I typically don't care for anyone's claim that they've been there and done that... simply because they typically act like they're the only ones who have.

 

[Pusher591]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

I'm definately not one of those but if I have done it I'll tell you and let you know my experience so hopefully people may learn something from it.

 

[USACS]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

I would stick with .308, and the reason is because of load selection availability for duty loads. We use Hornady 165gr Interbond TAP Barrier as our primary load for our snipers. We purposely use a barrier blind load. With the .308, there is the greatest selection of duty quality ammunition on the market. The logistics really make it the most ideal option IMO.


In re deadly force:
When it comes to deadly force, a good shoot is a good shoot is a good shoot. Nothing changes that. What changes is the perception of people based on where it happens and the politics of the region and courts. Politics always come into play.
With that said, I have not seen anything out there that CAN'T be scrutinized and argued by an attorney.
It's like the issue of personally owned patrol rifles and pistols and backup guns. People can argue whatever they want, but the facts are that no documentation exists anywhere to show that anyone has successfully litigated additional lethality or negligence or intent to kill because of their selection and ownership of a certain gun and ammunition. That is, unless said selection violated department policy or state or federal law.

When it comes to law suits, they can be filed for constitutional rights violations, failure to train, failure to supervise, or policy violations. Most shootings fall under constitutional rights claims in relation to the 4th Amendment and the seizure of that person's life. Excessive use of force is a cornerstone of that argument. However, excessive use of force claims become invalidated when the courts determine that deadly force was reasonable. Attorneys can claim that certain bullets have more special "death power". Let them. It's nothing new, and the same games the ambulance chasers have been playing for decades. We know that there is no reasonable argument with relation to this issue, but if a judge and jury find otherwise, it's really not anything we can help except to file a higher appeal afterwards. There is no merit to a claim that one bullet is more unreasonably deadly and excessive. Whether you shoot someone with a Hornady .223 75gr BTHP TAP, M118LR, or a Lapua 300gr Scenar, if it was reasonably justifiable to use deadly force, it really doesn't matter what you killed them with.

If you're a LEO, expect to get sued if you shoot and/or kill someone; regardless of justification. It just comes with the territory.

 

[fdkay]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

I'm not fond of the. 223/5.56 in the snipers role. Barrier performance is poor and there have been several ftn's with it.
I like the. 308, there are numerous match loads, but IMHO, it is normally too much.
I am reasonably certain there are agencies out there using the .243. A great round but short barrel life.
I'm thinking the 6.5 cm with the 120 class bullet would be an excellent compromise.
I know trying to convince those in LE that something might be better is a tough row to hoe.
Right now, it is just something I'm considering.
Normally, in Texas, it is difficult to Sue an officer for an act committed in the performance of his duties, unless there is some criminal malfeasance.
Thanks to all for the replies. I think it can be a useful, interesting discussion.

 

[USACS]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not fond of the. 223/5.56 in the snipers role. Barrier performance is poor and there have been several ftn's with it.
I like the. 308, there are numerous match loads, but IMHO, it is normally too much.
I am reasonably certain there are agencies out there using the .243. A great round but short barrel life.
I'm thinking the 6.5 cm with the 120 class bullet would be an excellent compromise.
</div></div>
Just something to consider, but keep in mind that you may need to shoot through barriers and armor. I'm sure you already are aware of your needs, but it begs to be repeated. If you choose to use a 6.5, make sure you have access to ammunition that you KNOW will penetrate the barriers that you know you will encounter and still have the capability needed to put the mutt down.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I know trying to convince those in LE that something might be better is a tough row to hoe.
Right now, it is just something I'm considering.
</div></div>
That's an understatement. Everytime an administrator or stagnated officer or sergeant gets involved, they just throw out the arbitrary claim of increased liability without any proof to back it up. That, or you get the "that's how we've always done it" brick wall that continues to plague law enforcement and hold us back.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Normally, in Texas, it is difficult to Sue an officer for an act committed in the performance of his duties, unless there is some criminal malfeasance.
</div></div>

Same here in Minnesota. If you are within policy and the law (and most policies mandate adherence to the law, so it's basically a repetitive statement), your agency will indemnify you. Once you are indemnified, whatever happens to you is not your ass, it's the PD's and city's. If I do what I'm supposed to be doing, I have no worries about my city and PD backing me. If there's any question, I know my union will step up and force the city to toe the line.
Therein, I've also made a conscious decision to work for a department that backs its officers and is a union department.

Everything comes down to policy. We live and die by our policies. If your agency's policies are such that you using lethal force justifiably can get your ass in a sling, your agency needs to shore up their policies and make some changes. As long as you're inside your policy, there's no reason why you should have need to worry about anything. Unless your agency just sucks, in which case GTFO.

 

[TGagnon]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

There is an old man at bagram used to be a jail guard in the towers were he is from. Said he used to use a 7-08 loaded down so he wouldn't over penetrate into the victim underneath the attacker in the event of a fight. Really cool story but I never dug deaper than that.

 

[tip2oo3]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

Im in the same boat as you brother, personally owned equipment on duty. It would be great to have the best of both worlds competition/duty gun. I use hornady 168tap as my duty round. I'd personally feel more comfortable if hornady offered a tap round if I was to switch calibers. If they had the ballistic tests/ barrier tests to back it up as a round fit for police application that would be ideal. I'd want to have the companies ballistics data and then go down to the range and shoot through glass/ barriers etc. I believe you should test out your ammo on those scenarios however I wouldn't want that to be the only documentation available.Ammo companies have a lot more resources than I do when it comes to testing.

 

[flatlander]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

Snipers from NC Dept of Corrections uses Rem 700 in 243. Watched them practicing last fall taking head shots from 300 y.

 

[Graham]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TGagnon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is an old man at bagram used to be a jail guard in the towers were he is from. Said he used to use a 7-08 loaded down so he wouldn't over penetrate into the victim underneath the attacker in the event of a fight. Really cool story but I never dug deaper than that. </div></div>Don't bother digging, the smell will only get worse.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Snipers from NC Dept of Corrections uses Rem 700 in 243.</div></div>

I think the 243 would be a perfect round for LE but I don't get a vote.

When I started I had to justify the Rifle and Ammo before I was allowed to start a program.

At the time everyone FBI, SS, and several LE agencies across the country were sending their people to the USAMU Sniper School so I had to use their guidence is selecting a rifle and Ammo. The AMU's thinking at the time was the 223 in a bolt gun w/ 6-8 fixed power scopes (urban LE). That's what I went with, right out of their manual. I used M193 for ammo and had no problem selling the ideal.

It was simple for anyone to justify.

Hard to say "reloaded" ammo is out for the rifle since I carried reloaded ammo for my service revolver.

I really doubt I could have justified a 50 cal or 338 LM, but not many were around in the 70s.

There are a lot better 223 bullets out now days, If I was still in the game I'd probably want to stick to the 223.

I still teach LE sniping but I'm not big into sugesting rifles or ammo. Most have already got their minds made up before I get there. I base my classes on their gear.

But I do like the 243.

 

[RyanScott]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

Pusher, if he's sued for a shooting he will be the defense and have to create the doubt.

I don't think it would be an issue. However I suspect 6.5s don't shoot through glass as well.

 

[Graham]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pusher, if he's sued for a shooting he will be the defense and have to create the doubt.</div></div>You are correct in that Pusher was wrong when he said that the defense creating doubt would harm the officer, but reasonable doubt is not the standard in a civil case.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pusher591</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm really thinking more along the lines of civil legalities, it ALOT easier to win a civil case then a criminal case.</div></div>Actually, although the standard is different, by the time it gets to trial most criminal cases are easier for the prosecution than civil cases are for the plaintiff.

 

[mattharper]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

Fdkay, first off I just want to say you're a stand-up guy for making that type of commitment to your agency. Thats a ton of time, money, and dicipline for a man to shoulder. I've been in SWAT for about 6 years and the last 3 have been as a Sniper. I feel fortunate that my agency takes care of us as far as equipment and training, but after I made it through Sniper School I realized that the entry side of our team sees most of the love, and then we get whats left. I'm not complaining, its just the way it is. So I've had to get creative to be able to supply my team with some of the gear that Sniper's know is "must-have", but the people with the money sees as wants. So, to a small degree I feel your pain.
We are issued the 700 LTR (.308)/Bi-pod, Leupold VX III, rails, AN PVS 22 NV's, and Ammo. Everything else is our own to buy. Also, we have a small team (less than 15) and we lost a brother last week, so we have to cross-train with entry, so we also have to be creative with training time as most of our scheduled training days are spent on entry. Now I'll quit with all that and talk about what you want to talk about (Can't help being long winded, you struck a cord).
As some of the others have said, policy is king. If you have a loose policy as far as Sniper's are concerned, my suggestion is to reach out to other agency's in your area and see how their's are written and develop a policy that suits your team. Its been my experience that command staff is somewhat understanding as far as this is concerned. Most of the time they just aren't sure what you're capable of, and this doubles as an opportunity to get an attentive ear as far as your equipment problem is concerned. Just make sure your "guns" are loaded. You can show what other agency's are doing and it never hurts to have some stats onhand for re-enforcement. I suggest you check out the American Sniper Association if you're not already a member. There is a wealth of knowledge to be had there, and they are some of the nicest people you would ever care to deal with.
As far as your caliber choice is concerned, I don't see any harm in testing an alternative since you are the one footing the bill. It boils down to what you have confidence in, and what you have proven to work (DOCUMENT EVERYTHING). Everyone has been right in my opinion about intermediate barrier penetration. This is where our biggest challenge comes. Whatever round you test needs to be fired through as many types of glass as you can get your hands on. I have found that auto glass and window companies in my area have been very helpful with giving me broken and cracked windows and glass to train with. They will call me and all I have to do is go pick it up. I just took some time to explain what we were doing with it, and most of the time they were just going to throw it away anyway.
I am close to most of the teams in my area, and everyone runs .308's with some teams also running .223's in populated areas like apartment buildings as an alternative. Our team got lucky enough to go to the Swat Roundup International comp. last go-round, and most of what I saw there was .308. There was a Russian team there that was running .338 lpm, but I didn't get to talk to any of them about it. On a side note, I did meet a team from Garland Texas (not sure if thats anywhere near you) and they were some good guys.
I hope this helps some, and if theres anything I can do to help you just let me know. I don't know a lot, but I've got some great resources and friends in this arena.
Stay safe bro...

 

[RyanScott]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pusher, if he's sued for a shooting he will be the defense and have to create the doubt.</div></div>You are correct in that Pusher was wrong when he said that the defense creating doubt would harm the officer, but reasonable doubt is not the standard in a civil case.
</div></div>

Yeah, preponderance of evidence, right?

 

[Who Dat]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

Fdkay,
Are you a small agency or a large agency, metropolitian city or rual county. Lets get back to the LE stuff instead of the bickering.

 

[fdkay]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

Small agency. Town of about 9000.
I've been slowly making improvements to the rifle. It is a very good shooter as is.
I have seriously considered giving up the qual due to lack of support, but I don't do it for the admin, I do it for my fellow officers.

 

[Zebra644]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

My agency uses .308, I supply my own rifle, that does not bother me due to I know it inside and out and was allowed to have it built the way I wanted it with prior approval and its mine. The dept. issues my ammo for training, I buy my own when I practice on my own. On my last call out I was 40 yds away. The whole use of force thing appears to differ from state to state. In our area its the use of force that is looked over / questioned, wether its justified or not. The rifle would go into an evidence locker pending the outcome of the investigation of the use of force. I did my job right, Ill have it back in a couple of weeks, if not, I have bigger issues than that to worry about.

 

[ShakyDave]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

I'm an advocate for hand loading except for ammunition that you might use in a shooting. For defense or police work it's always much better to have ammunition from a commercial, store-bought box. If you're a defendant in a legal action you can always say it's what my agency issued me, and if you were acting as an individual you can argue that the load was marketed for the purpose of self-defense.

Granted that when a shooting is justified, it's justified; the more dangerous issue is that bullets do funky stuff when they leave your gun barrel, and there is almost always the possibility of collateral damage. THOSE are the suits that any sniper has to worry about. Sitting at the defendant's table while the plaintiff's lawyer waves around a ballistic comparison of the 6.5 Creedmore versus the 308 and argues that you recklessly chose to use a hotter weapon in an urban environment can be a pretty unsettling experience.

And while you may be justified in pulling a trigger that same justification may well not carry over to the tissue damage caused by bullet design or powder selection/load.

I can guarantee that if you're a police marksman using hand loads or unauthorized caliber weapons, your defense lawyer is going to be pretty unhappy, and if the plaintiff has competent counsel there's going to be some money changing hands.

 

[Pusher591]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

That was basically the point I was trying to make, but apparently it wasnt coming across that way.

I was going crazy thinking I was the only one who thought about it that way. Good to see someone has sone sense and not the "I'm right, your wrong idiot" attitude.

 

[bohem]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

There is a LEO agency in Maryland that switched to 6.5CM this year. I spoke with one of their procurement officers in February when he was shooting one of the new duty rifles in 6.5CM

They are running 140 Amax as a primary and the 120 GMX as a barrier round.

IMO the 6.5CM is a great round for this application. Excellent ballistics, great factory ammo offerings, and the GMX ammo is a gilding metal mono-metallic bullet that won't have core-sep issues on armor or glass.

 

[Graham]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pusher591</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was going crazy thinking I was the only one who thought about it that way. Good to see someone has sone sense and not the "I'm right, your wrong idiot" attitude. </div></div>There are many opinions on the internet, not all of them accurate ones. It's not about having the right opinion, it's about giving a competent and credible answer to the question: Giving reasons for one's opinions that stand up to scrutiny in the real world.

If the ammo is approved, and the rifle is maintained the same than any other department weapon, then what legal issues are created and/or what statutes are being violated? I understand the intuitive reluctance to use anything but factory ammo, but I want to identify how much of that is myth and how much is reality. Can anyone find a case involving an LE sniper shooting where reloaded ammo was an issue? What about a case where any of the other issues claimed above were considered by the court?

 

[Pusher591]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

Graham, obviously you feel your right and you may be in some aspects but what's funny is how you quoted me and assumed I was speaking about you.

Let's stop filling this guys thread full of bickering.

Like I said 5 times before, if you want to use it go ahead, I'm in no way trying to stop you, I prefer not to set that precedent, good or bad.

 

[Driftwood]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

Prior to my becoming a sniper on my department, they used a 25-06, but then switched to .308. If its a duty rifle I would spend less time trying to customize it and more time learning to shoot what you have.

I agree the .243 would be a good caliber for police sniping, however, I would be reluctant to carry a weapon or ammunition that was not provided by your department. Your statement that your department said "we have never needed a sniper in the past" makes me think they are less than supportive of your desire to be a sniper for them. That too would give me the willies. I don't like the .223 as a sniping round for LE, while over penetration is not generally an issue, underpenetration can be, especially when shooting through barriers such as glass.

I think anytime you deviate from the "standard" you should have a very articulable reason for doing so. I don't think the gains you would get by rebarreling in another caliber would outweigh the cons. If your department were more behind you it might be a different story, but it sounds like they will throw you to the wolves the first chance they can. I don't worry about criminal liablility so much as civil. As has been mentioned criminally, if deadly force is justified and you kill the guy with a rock from your sling, you are golden. Civilly that is not always the case. If you are involved in a shooting, good or not, you AND your department will be sued civilly, count on it. Your department will throw you under the bus in a heartbeat. I wouldn't give them any more ammunition than they already have.

The biggest problem with a 308 in your application is overpenetration. You have to be sure of your backstop. It has very good terminal ballistics and isn't to bad on glass. Inside 300 yards its pretty flat shooting. There is a ton of data behind it.

The fact that most LE agencies use it as their primary round is helpful in civil litigation. I have always liked the saying "The nail that sticks out gets the hammer". Don't be that nail.

 

[308Shooter1911]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

Did I read someone suggest handloading for your duty rifle??? Seriously...YOU DONT WANT THAT LIABILITY!!! IMHO you should stick with the .308 cal for LE sniping. If you take a shot more than 400yds I would be surprised, depending of the area in which you patrol, therefore you wont see the benefits of the long range performance. In my city I would be surprised if a shot more that 100yds was availible.

PS: I hope they are paying you for your marksman service if they arent paying for your ammo. Cause if not, it sounds like they should have someone else on speed dial in a crisis situation.

 

[Graham]

Re: LE agencies using something besides .308/.223

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pusher591</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...what's funny is how you quoted me and assumed I was speaking about you. </div></div>Where on earth did you get that idea from?

This Thread is quickly becoming epic... So, rather than contribute to the noise and take flak from Pusher for challenging him, I'll simply start asking questions as a way of finding out the substance behind the advice we are getting:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Driftwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would be reluctant to carry a weapon or ammunition that was not provided by your department.</div></div>Why? What is the problem with using personally owned rifles?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Driftwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are involved in a shooting, good or not, you AND your department will be sued civilly, count on it.</div></div>Would this be true in a State that has a statute which says that if you were committing a felony at the time you can't sue for your injuries?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Driftwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The fact that most LE agencies use it as their primary round is helpful in civil litigation.</div></div>How would this be helpful in litigation? What legal issue(s) does it address?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308Shooter1911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did I read someone suggest handloading for your duty rifle??? Seriously...YOU DONT WANT THAT LIABILITY!!!</div></div>What liability is it that you would be 'getting', and why would you not want it?

If, as the OP stated, he has his personally-owned rifle; then let's say it gets chambered in 6.5-something, his rifle and whatever ammo he uses are approved by the department, and he qualifies with them, and the rifle is maintained like any other department weapon, and he keeps records/logs of his training with them like with any other department weapon, then can anyone articulate what, exactly, is the supposed secret-squirrel legal 'problem' that everyone presumes to know about but no one appears to be able to explain?