Rifle Scopes LE Duty optic

[dk-1]

With all the new optics in the last 4-6 years, what would the community consider the minimum for an LE duty optic on a bolt gun? I remember when Mark 4 was pretty much the standard and NF NXS were a cut above that. Both of these optics have been surpassed by a trainload of other optics, but as far as durability, dependability, and reliability what makes the cut and what doesn't without spending 2k plus?
PST Gen II?
Razor Gen I?
Razor Gen II?
Steiner T5Xi?
Mark 5?

 

[CSTactical]

Our local SWAT guys have been using the Minox ZP5 3-15 for years with success, Minox also received a decent sized military contract in Europe a year or so ago.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I think the mk5 is likely viable, but it’s still new.

I’d go with a Razor Gen 2 as it has proven reliability.

 

[Rob01]

Yup Razor Gen II for sure.

 

[GhostFace]

Razor II on mine, very happy with the two that I have.

 

[dk-1]

I get that the Razor II is high on the list, but is this truly the MINIMUM for a duty optic these days? I used to consider the Mark 4 line the minimum and looked to them as a baseline, as they were proven by the Army and countless LE agencies.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I get that the Razor II is high on the list, but is this truly the MINIMUM for a duty optic these days? I used to consider the Mark 4 line the minimum and looked to them as a baseline, as they were proven by the Army and countless LE agencies.

Revolvers were proven and still work as well, but I wouldn’t recommend that as the minimum for duty use anymore.

Times change and so does the minimum recommended, regardless if something lesser still functions.

Razor gen 2 and possibly mk5 would be the absolute minimum I’d trust considering the modern options we currently have available

 

[dk-1]

Revolvers were proven and still work as well, but I wouldn’t recommend that as the minimum for duty use anymore.

Times change and so does the minimum recommended, regardless if something lesser still functions.

Razor gen 2 and possibly mk5 would be the absolute minimum I’d trust considering the modern options we currently have available

Well put! Thanks for that explanation.

 

[Notdylan]

Is used an option? The ATACR 4-16 would be my first choice. The F1's can be had under 2k and the SFP models for even less. I have always heard that SFP is preferred for LE use, is that not the case?

 

[Crews]

Man, all I do is piddle around at the ranch and I won’t trust my fun times to anything other than Nightforce. I couldn’t imagine picking anything else if my life or someone else’s actually depended on it.

 

[footsteps]

Urban dept or Rural ? This should have an impact on the magnification you would need .

 

[Healy]

I’d have no problem using a swfa ss scope they hold zero and track just as well as the scopes mentioned above sure the glass might not be the absolute best they may lack a few features but I would not hesitate to use one

 

[Back Spin]

I’d say NXS is still a viable option for the sub $2k price point. That is what my agency uses (5.5-22x). Our agency covers both suburban and rural areas.

My friend who is on the sniper team said while most of his positions are within 100 yards of the target, he has needed the high end of magnification to ID an object in the suspect’s hand.

2nd focal plane is acceptable as target distance is known and distances aren’t far enough to need to hold significantly for wind. Also, shots may need to be taken at low magnification.

That being said, is there a duty grade FFP optic that has a useable reticle on the low end?

 

[Dthomas3523]

I’d say NXS is still a viable option for the sub $2k price point. That is what my agency uses (5.5-22x). Our agency covers both suburban and rural areas.

My friend who is on the sniper team said while most of his positions are within 100 yards of the target, he has needed the high end of magnification to ID an object in the suspect’s hand.

2nd focal plane is acceptable as target distance is known and distances aren’t far enough to need to hold significantly for wind. Also, shots may need to be taken at low magnification.

That being said, is there a duty grade FFP optic that has a useable reticle on the low end?

Depends on definition of “useable.”

At the distance you would use the low end, you can still use crosshairs for a precise shot.

I have yet to hear a reason one would need to see the .2 (or whatever) hash marks at a distance they would use 3 or 5 power on.

 

[wade2big]

Depends on definition of “useable.”

At the distance you would use the low end, you can still use crosshairs for a precise shot.

I have yet to hear a reason one would need to see the .2 (or whatever) hash marks at a distance they would use 3 or 5 power on.

Most FFP scopes crosshairs are so thin when dialed down that they are virtually unusable unless in perfect lighting against just the right colored target. In other words they suck in this regard.

 

[Foxtrot2November]

Our tack team ran both NXS 3-15 and gen II razor 3-18 on sniper rifles. I have a 4.5-14x50 mk4 on my mk12 build. If I had to choose, I'd run a Steiner T5xi 5-25!

 

[Dthomas3523]

Most FFP scopes crosshairs are so thin when dialed down that they are virtually unusable unless in perfect lighting against just the right colored target. In other words they suck in this regard.

Never had one I couldn’t use as a duplex 3/5x at a distance so close you need to use that magnification.

Especially in a LE situation. You’re going to be a <50yds at this magnification range. If you can’t see the crosshairs to use as a duplex at that range, you need glasses or lasic.

 

[Notdylan]

Never had one I couldn’t use as a duplex 3/5x at a distance so close you need to use that magnification.

Especially in a LE situation. You’re going to be a <50yds at this magnification range. If you can’t see the crosshairs to use as a duplex at that range, you need glasses or lasic.

I have 20/20. The reticle on a gen 2 Razor @ 4.5x can be pretty hard to pick up QUICKLY unless you are in good conditions looking at a solid color background, like a white target. Not ideal for a LE type situation. In my opinion, there is zero reason to have a FFP optic when your shots are <50 yards.

 

[Rob01]

Use illumination on low power. Makes it very easy to see. As mentioned you won;t be doing mil holds at 3/4.5x so you can see the reticle easily for a crosshair aiming point.

 

[dk-1]

I know what I want as far as features in a duty scope, but just mainly asking about the durability. Truth be told a SFP Viper PST gen II 3-15x44 would have way more features than the Mark IV 4.5-14x50 moa/mildot I was used to for duty use and would cover all my needs. I looked at the above PST gen II in person today and was impressed. If it is durable and repeatable, it would fit the bill nicely. If not, it would make a good hunting scope for a 28 Nosler build I’m finishing up. If the PST gen II’s can be trusted at the same level of the old Mark IV’s, I’d have no problem running it. This optic/rifle will be riding in the back of a patrol vehicle 12 hours a day, 4 days per week in an Eberlestock Gunslinger pack with all the supporting gear.

Believe it or not, when I first got on our tac team in 2004, my issued optic was a Vari-x II 4-12x40 AO with coin slot turrets and a duplex reticle. I bought a Mark IV with my own money before going to sniper school, and I’m glad I did. I have personally owned Mark IV, Mark 6, nightforce NXS, nightforce SHV, Razor gen 1, and Viper HST on my own rifles. What I’m doing is trying to put together a personally owned bolt rifle in 308 for patrol use. I’m not trying to break the bank with the optic on this build, but am willing to spend what it takes if need be. It will be going on a semi-custom blueprinted Remington 700 in a Grayboe stock.

AO is a large county consisting of areas with everything from city to farmland to remote foothills and mountains. I would say farthest engagement of 300 yards is realistic, but of course I will practice much further than that. I live on a ranch and play to 1200 on steel. I also play the long range hunting game and am thinking of trying some PRS style matches (if I ever get over the competitive archery thing, lol). I guess I should have spelled all this out from the start instead of asking so broadly. I do appreciate all the input so far!

 

[wyld3man]

I know what I want as far as features in a duty scope, but just mainly asking about the durability. Truth be told a SFP Viper PST gen II 3-15x44 would have way more features than the Mark IV 4.5-14x50 moa/mildot I was used to for duty use and would cover all my needs. I looked at the above PST gen II in person today and was impressed. If it is durable and repeatable, it would fit the bill nicely. If not, it would make a good hunting scope for a 28 Nosler build I’m finishing up. If the PST gen II’s can be trusted at the same level of the old Mark IV’s, I’d have no problem running it. This optic/rifle will be riding in the back of a patrol vehicle 12 hours a day, 4 days per week in an Eberlestock Gunslinger pack with all the supporting gear.

Believe it or not, when I first got on our tac team in 2004, my issued optic was a Vari-x II 4-12x40 AO with coin slot turrets and a duplex reticle. I bought a Mark IV with my own money before going to sniper school, and I’m glad I did. I have personally owned Mark IV, Mark 6, nightforce NXS, nightforce SHV, Razor gen 1, and Viper HST on my own rifles. What I’m doing is trying to put together a personally owned bolt rifle in 308 for patrol use. I’m not trying to break the bank with the optic on this build, but am willing to spend what it takes if need be. It will be going on a semi-custom blueprinted Remington 700 in a Grayboe stock.

AO is a large county consisting of areas with everything from city to farmland to remote foothills and mountains. I would say farthest engagement of 300 yards is realistic, but of course I will practice much further than that. I live on a ranch and play to 1200 on steel. I also play the long range hunting game and am thinking of trying some PRS style matches (if I ever get over the competitive archery thing, lol). I guess I should have spelled all this out from the start instead of asking so broadly. I do appreciate all the input so far!

The ones that have been tested and passed for military use are: (that I know of)
Leopold MK6
Razor Gen 2 1-6
Schmidt and Bender, can’t remember the model
Night Force, can’t remember the model

I know of a few viper pst gen 2’s that were bought with personal funds and used down range, did not hear of any reliability issues

 

[cageli]

I would suggest NF NXS. PST gen2 is no go for your purpose.

 

[TxWelder35]

Vortex has a pretty hefty discount for mil/leo if you call them up

 

[dk-1]

I’ve got a Gen 1 Razor in MOA and a NF SHV 3-10x42 in the PX right now for sale. I want to go all MIL on my optics as it is faster and simpler in my head. I initially was going to go all MOA because most lighter weight hunting optics only come in MOA and I wanted the uniformity. I’ve got a Razor HD LH on a custom 280 AI, but will be selling that entire set up to a good friend when he comes up with the funds. The gen 1 Razor is on my 6.5 CM which will be going in an MDT ESS when the 280 AI sells (it currently sits in a Grayboe Renegade). The NF SHV was set aside for a lightweight 260 hunting rifle with a proof barreled Christensen Arms action that is still at the smith. My 28 Nosler is a Gunwerks barreled action which I still need to bed into the Greyboe stock and then coat, but I have a 4-16x44 HST in MOA set aside for that. The rest of my scopes will hopefully be in MIL, so I will also be selling the HST at some point.

I’m aware of the deal Vortex gives us, and am appreciative of it as you can see. But I have a lot of projects going at the moment and will need to sell/buy wisely. I would like to go with a Gen II Razor on my 6.5 CM as that will be my match rifle..... One other option would be to sell my 308 when it is finished and just run the 6.5 CM at work, but I would have to present the case for the CM caliber to the higher ups vs. the proven 308. We all know the 6.5’s run circles around the 308, but it’s a change. The other thing is I already found a great hand load for my 6.5 but would need to find a suitable factory load for it to use it on duty. I’m also thinking the 308 would be a valuable training caliber as it is at a handicap to the 6.5’s.

Another thing to note, I realized the 3-15x44 PST Gen II only comes in MOA in SFP, so it is back off the table if I want to stick with MIL. FFP isn’t a must, but I don’t have a problem with them on lower power either, especially with illumination. The reason I’m doing this build/project (without disclosing too much detail) is we had an incident a few months ago where patrol with a precision rifle could have quite possibly swiftly ended a situation where rounds went both ways and one of ours was WIA.

 

[dk-1]

Thanks for the input so far, it’s been a great discussion. I’ll see what I can sell and what I can spend when it’s all said and done. The NXS 3-15 might be the way to go here, unless there’s an option I’m not seeing yet. I like the Minox suggestion and will look into that further. I can get a good deal on the Steiner T5Xi, but it seems they get no love around here. I’ve purchased through Luepold’s LE program before and am waiting for an email back from them. If I could swing it financially, I think I’d get the Gen II Razor for both the 308 and 6.5 putting the 3-18 on the 308 and the 4.5-27 on the 6.5.

 

[Novak77]

Steiner M series of scopes are bad ass. Built like tanks, great glass, solid tracking. Camera Land had a few 3-15s with MSR reticles for $2k, I'd add one to your list of considerations.

 

[ICU22250]

The

I’ve got a Gen 1 Razor in MOA and a NF SHV 3-10x42 in the PX right now for sale. I want to go all MIL on my optics as it is faster and simpler in my head. I initially was going to go all MOA because most lighter weight hunting optics only come in MOA and I wanted the uniformity. I’ve got a Razor HD LH on a custom 280 AI, but will be selling that entire set up to a good friend when he comes up with the funds. The gen 1 Razor is on my 6.5 CM which will be going in an MDT ESS when the 280 AI sells (it currently sits in a Grayboe Renegade). The NF SHV was set aside for a lightweight 260 hunting rifle with a proof barreled Christensen Arms action that is still at the smith. My 28 Nosler is a Gunwerks barreled action which I still need to bed into the Greyboe stock and then coat, but I have a 4-16x44 HST in MOA set aside for that. The rest of my scopes will hopefully be in MIL, so I will also be selling the HST at some point.

I’m aware of the deal Vortex gives us, and am appreciative of it as you can see. But I have a lot of projects going at the moment and will need to sell/buy wisely. I would like to go with a Gen II Razor on my 6.5 CM as that will be my match rifle..... One other option would be to sell my 308 when it is finished and just run the 6.5 CM at work, but I would have to present the case for the CM caliber to the higher ups vs. the proven 308. We all know the 6.5’s run circles around the 308, but it’s a change. The other thing is I already found a great hand load for my 6.5 but would need to find a suitable factory load for it to use it on duty. I’m also thinking the 308 would be a valuable training caliber as it is at a handicap to the 6.5’s.

Another thing to note, I realized the 3-15x44 PST Gen II only comes in MOA in SFP, so it is back off the table if I want to stick with MIL. FFP isn’t a must, but I don’t have a problem with them on lower power either, especially with illumination. The reason I’m doing this build/project (without disclosing too much detail) is we had an incident a few months ago where patrol with a precision rifle could have quite possibly swiftly ended a situation where rounds went both ways and one of ours was WIA.

The PST Gen II also comes in FFP MIL in the 3-15x44...

 

[Johnson184]

Does Nightforce offer LEOs discounts?

 

[Flyingbullseye]

Our local SWAT guys have been using the Minox ZP5 3-15 for years with success, Minox also received a decent sized military contract in Europe a year or so ago.

Great scope and I'd still have mine if the MR5 didn't have such small half mil marks. 0.125 is ridiculous on a 15X optic, why companies port the higher mag reticle over to the lower mag model without changing anything is beyond me. Otherwise its a superb optic.

 

[wyld3man]

Does Nightforce offer LEOs discounts?

I think they do, just call them

 

[wyld3man]

Leupold offers a good mil/Le discount that is hard to beat

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

The Bushnell DMR2 Pro would be my vote, especially at LE/MIL pricing.

 

[Jsmith410]

I think they do, just call them

They do. You have to send them an email from your work email and they’ll set you up once verified.

 

[hypno02]

IMO a SFP NXS 3-15 is just about the perfect optic for this application. Good power range. Useable reticles. Easy to adjust mag under stress. Illum. And a durability track record that's second to none.

OP--you gotta take the pstG2 off your list. It's not an optic anyone should ever have to trust theirs or someone else's life to.

 

[fdkay]

I had Vortex send me a Gen II when they first released them. I found them to be an excellent optic for many things, but not for LE work.
I thought the reticle was just too fine and hard to pick up, even with illumination.
I also took a look at the PST Gen II, it was definitely an improvement over the Gen 1, but there is a nagging feeling that they are not quite robust enough.

My duty rifle sports a Burris XTRII with the G2B mil dot, I chose that reticle because it is a bit thicker than others. The damn thing is bullet proof, I do wish it has the PST II glass though.
Keep in mind, FFP is not really required in LE optics, after all, engagement distances are usually very short and won't typically exceed 200 yards.
The NXS that was recommended is a good choice.
The standard Leupy 4.5-14 still has merit.
My match rifle wears a Sightron 4.5-24, if I could convince my department to upgrade, it would be to this optic. It does everything well, including a focus down to 13 yards, which is VERY important in LE work. The agency price makes it VERY attractive.

 

[Ozarkcop]

Just a note on Leupold, discount is higher if you have a guides license or used to be. In some states a guide license is pretty cheap to obtain.

 

[dk-1]

I'll check into the NF discount. I have also been researching the VX-3i LRP 4.5-14X50, it looks to be the closest to the old Mark 4.

 

[dk-1]

I'll also look into the Burris if they are truly bullet proof!