Lead Ban Reversed!
- Thread starter Veer_G
- Start date
At first I thought the lead band were ridiculous. Then the more I thought about it, considering the options in the market and the continued push for innovation i was ok with them
Lead is bad plain and simple and there are other options. This country has had a love affair with lead for ever one that has continued far longer then every other country in Europe. We were way late to the game pulling it from fuel. From paint. Cosmetics. Really anything with pigment.
With various alloys, polymers and ceramics, we don't need lead in ammo. And cost isnt the issue here. The alternative ammo costs more. Because it's the odd ball right now
Yankeemarshall. On YouTube did a good video on this topic I think last week. And he mad a solid argument for shooter taking the reins and pushing manufactures to make the switch on our terms and that the best way to avoid the legal ban was to make the switch as a consumer. Their was some logic here allowing it to remain an option if needed.
Think light bulbs. People were up in arms over being forceds away from incandescent bulbs. Yes the price quality and options of LED bulbs have grown like crazy over the last 4-5 years.
I can still find the old bulbs but I don't buy them why would I. I'm ok with a lead going away. I don't like the idea of a ban, but I would like to see manufacturers phase it out and develop more new alternatives. Forced to do so with modern options I bet they find even better manufacturing methods. And although there will be a cost there, there will also be a savings in not having to put protocols in place dealing with toxic lead
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Lead is bad plain and simple and there are other options. This country has had a love affair with lead for ever one that has continued far longer then every other country in Europe. We were way late to the game pulling it from fuel. From paint. Cosmetics. Really anything with pigment.
With various alloys, polymers and ceramics, we don't need lead in ammo. And cost isnt the issue here. The alternative ammo costs more. Because it's the odd ball right now
Yankeemarshall. On YouTube did a good video on this topic I think last week. And he mad a solid argument for shooter taking the reins and pushing manufactures to make the switch on our terms and that the best way to avoid the legal ban was to make the switch as a consumer. Their was some logic here allowing it to remain an option if needed.
Think light bulbs. People were up in arms over being forceds away from incandescent bulbs. Yes the price quality and options of LED bulbs have grown like crazy over the last 4-5 years.
I can still find the old bulbs but I don't buy them why would I. I'm ok with a lead going away. I don't like the idea of a ban, but I would like to see manufacturers phase it out and develop more new alternatives. Forced to do so with modern options I bet they find even better manufacturing methods. And although there will be a cost there, there will also be a savings in not having to put protocols in place dealing with toxic lead
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I agree.
Don't legislate...educate & innovate!
EDIT:
To clarify, I was in agreement with the repeal of lead ban, not the notion of lead being "all bad".
Should have been more clear & concise, sorry to have pulled a Jeff Sessions!
Let the market decide if/what works better, and the market will reward the better product with sales...
Don't legislate...educate & innovate!
EDIT:
To clarify, I was in agreement with the repeal of lead ban, not the notion of lead being "all bad".
Should have been more clear & concise, sorry to have pulled a Jeff Sessions!
Let the market decide if/what works better, and the market will reward the better product with sales...
Last edited:
Well, Veer, all I can say is that I don't like the regulation... and I am glad it is gone. Created without any due process, as a way to back-door in more gun control... by people whose mantra was "Fine, they can have their guns, we'll take away their ammo... Aren't we smart? We went to Princeton!"
There IS a lot of interesting technology coming down the pike. Good stuff. Though I think it would have happened with or without a ban.
And as much technology is coming, there is still something deeply satisfying and fun about casting lead bullets for a .45/70 Sharps or a .577 snider, then loading them up and popping them off! You can't do that with ceramics!
Zincke (sp?) is going to be great in Interior. He is going to listen to people who live, work, grow things, herd things, etc.... in the INTERIOR. Not in the 'interior' of high-rise apartments on Park Avenue or the interior of Beverly Hills mansions where they fly in their eyebrow manicurists for the Oscars (That's you, Leonardo).
Good news!
Cheers,
Sirhr
P.S. There is a great article in a recent American Rifleman on some of the new polymer pistol ammo that is coming online. Technology IS going to do great things. But we should let it evolve... which it will... as performance/price makes it the right economic choice.
There IS a lot of interesting technology coming down the pike. Good stuff. Though I think it would have happened with or without a ban.
And as much technology is coming, there is still something deeply satisfying and fun about casting lead bullets for a .45/70 Sharps or a .577 snider, then loading them up and popping them off! You can't do that with ceramics!
Zincke (sp?) is going to be great in Interior. He is going to listen to people who live, work, grow things, herd things, etc.... in the INTERIOR. Not in the 'interior' of high-rise apartments on Park Avenue or the interior of Beverly Hills mansions where they fly in their eyebrow manicurists for the Oscars (That's you, Leonardo).
Good news!
Cheers,
Sirhr
P.S. There is a great article in a recent American Rifleman on some of the new polymer pistol ammo that is coming online. Technology IS going to do great things. But we should let it evolve... which it will... as performance/price makes it the right economic choice.
I was, of course, waiting for an opinion contrary to those expressed by the first few respondents. Bill provided that, thus my comment. I agree with your stance on lead. And Zinke, BTW, rode to work on his first day on a horse.
If an alternative is better, faster, cheaper, the market will retire the old "thing" and bring in the new one. Technology like phones and TV's has been moving forward a crazy speeds with 0 Gov't intervention. The Gov't didn't need to ban flip phones, everyone wanted a smartphone on their own amd now how often do you see someone with a flip phone? When the Gov't has to step in and ban something, by definition it is going against the free market, creating inefficiency, and destroying wealth.
It was stupid for the Gov't to ban light bulbs. CFL's are rediculous, and LED's are getting there but not there yet. If LED's are really the way to go then they would have eventually taken over the market naturally. I still have a whole closet full of old light bulbs though so I can slowly transition to LED's as they become better.
Kudos to the new Secratary for reversing a aweful ban!
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I would have given you one, because there were only the first two responses posted when I read it. But to be honest, I was kind of speechless at the first two responses, and had nowhere near enough time available at that moment to address it. I've never viewed the lead ban as anything other than a means to an end that has nothing to do with its supposed real purpose. How did we ever survive for over two centuries in this nation eating wild game harvested with lead projectiles without dying horrible deaths from lead poisoning? It must be near-epidemic, to hear them tell it.
It's all relatively simple really... It was part of one of his many last-minute "fuck you" parting gifts. Entirely political, nothing to do with poisoning birds or contaminating ground water.
Lots of liberal nut was dropped that day; from gun control to environmentalists. Little do they know, hugging a tree too hard causes damage to it's delicate epidermis.
Lots of liberal nut was dropped that day; from gun control to environmentalists. Little do they know, hugging a tree too hard causes damage to it's delicate epidermis.
I like Barnes TSX bullets for hunting. They fly straight and true out of my 270win and I've never not had a pass through- nor have ever not had a DRT response. But, they are expensive- easily 2x the cost of a premium lead core hunting bullet alternative. I don't I'll continue to use them for hunting, but only needing 2-3 a year to fill the freezer, my kids' kids' should have plenty of hunting ammo to put through grampa's gun- when the time comes.
Make shooting sufficiently expensive and you make shooting less appealing as a recreational activity. That was the goal
of the ban. I've never not had a pass through with lead core ammo, and I would wager you could weigh on a bathroom scale the total amount of lead annually left within the carcass/gut pile of harvested game- across the country. Recovered bullets are rare- that's the allure of the "show your recovered bullets thread" in the hunting section. The contention that carrion eaters are getting lead poisoning from eating remnants of hunting harvests is preposterous.
Make shooting sufficiently expensive and you make shooting less appealing as a recreational activity. That was the goal
of the ban. I've never not had a pass through with lead core ammo, and I would wager you could weigh on a bathroom scale the total amount of lead annually left within the carcass/gut pile of harvested game- across the country. Recovered bullets are rare- that's the allure of the "show your recovered bullets thread" in the hunting section. The contention that carrion eaters are getting lead poisoning from eating remnants of hunting harvests is preposterous.
I'm one of those luddites that still buys incandescent light bulbs at every opportunity, so use that for reference.
The lead bans were dumb IMHO going all the way back to the waterfowl restrictions. How many of us can remember when steel shot was mandated and we started watching the numbers of cripples increase dramatically. Eventually some decent waterfowl loads came out that had a decent pattern densit. I recall many a cold angry morning watching ducks and geese that would've been DRT with lead shot, simply flutter off to die and be wasted elsewhere because the steel shot wasn't killing them humanely.
Build a a better mousetrap and the market will make the change on its own. Outlawing something in order to force an unnatural shift in the market only ends up with expensive alternatives that tend to suck. "Clean energy" vs coal is one of my huge pet peeves.
The lead bans were dumb IMHO going all the way back to the waterfowl restrictions. How many of us can remember when steel shot was mandated and we started watching the numbers of cripples increase dramatically. Eventually some decent waterfowl loads came out that had a decent pattern densit. I recall many a cold angry morning watching ducks and geese that would've been DRT with lead shot, simply flutter off to die and be wasted elsewhere because the steel shot wasn't killing them humanely.
Build a a better mousetrap and the market will make the change on its own. Outlawing something in order to force an unnatural shift in the market only ends up with expensive alternatives that tend to suck. "Clean energy" vs coal is one of my huge pet peeves.
This is probably the correct place for this. I wish I was making it up...
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/01/10/us-army-asks-for-biodegradable-ammo.html
Highlights?
"Specifically, the DoD wants "biodegradable training ammunition loaded with specialized seeds to grow environmentally beneficial plants that eliminate ammunition debris and contaminants.""
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/01/10/us-army-asks-for-biodegradable-ammo.html
Highlights?
"Specifically, the DoD wants "biodegradable training ammunition loaded with specialized seeds to grow environmentally beneficial plants that eliminate ammunition debris and contaminants.""
Sounds like a DARPA project to me. Actually, kind of seems like a cool idea!
DARPA is a fun bunch to work with. Very zany ideas, but they pull a lot of them off. Way, way out there stuff!
Well, lead has a long history of being, if not organic, a food additive! The Romans sweetened their wine with it. And use it as a flavor enhancer. Right now the Mexican Cartels are adding colloidal lead (generally ground up car batteries.... very organic) to marijuana. Makes it sweet and tasty, apparently. Though I can't say first hand. Bet it does wonders for long-term health. Back to the Romans, there are a number of theories that the massive over-consumption of lead was a factor leading to the fall of the Roman Empire. Certainly the behavior of several Emperors was likely influenced by lead consumption. Some argue that the effects are still found in descendants... literally changes to DNA/Chromosomes that has been passed on. But I am not sure I track with how that works...
But to the point on the first page that the 'volume' of lead that shooting sports put into the environment is miniscule... is right on. And I watched too many geese and ducks fly through steel... and then flutter off wounded. The idea that waterfowl were at risk from shot was, to me, a bridge too far decades ago.
Cheers,
Sirhr
DARPA is a fun bunch to work with. Very zany ideas, but they pull a lot of them off. Way, way out there stuff!
Well, lead has a long history of being, if not organic, a food additive! The Romans sweetened their wine with it. And use it as a flavor enhancer. Right now the Mexican Cartels are adding colloidal lead (generally ground up car batteries.... very organic) to marijuana. Makes it sweet and tasty, apparently. Though I can't say first hand. Bet it does wonders for long-term health. Back to the Romans, there are a number of theories that the massive over-consumption of lead was a factor leading to the fall of the Roman Empire. Certainly the behavior of several Emperors was likely influenced by lead consumption. Some argue that the effects are still found in descendants... literally changes to DNA/Chromosomes that has been passed on. But I am not sure I track with how that works...
But to the point on the first page that the 'volume' of lead that shooting sports put into the environment is miniscule... is right on. And I watched too many geese and ducks fly through steel... and then flutter off wounded. The idea that waterfowl were at risk from shot was, to me, a bridge too far decades ago.
Cheers,
Sirhr
#1: because I grew up with them and my books "read right" to my eyes by them
#2: because a bunch of got-damned hippies tried to tell me that I couldn't have them
#3: because 'Merica!!!! 'Nough said
#2: because a bunch of got-damned hippies tried to tell me that I couldn't have them
#3: because 'Merica!!!! 'Nough said
Bogey,
I too am a fan of IC bulbs because they work but.....
Every couple years I take advantage of the "free" energy audits the power company offers. These are "free" in the sense there is a line item in your bill every month that requires you to pay for them so Im just getting some service for my payments.
Any way someone will show up at your house and basically replace every bulb in your house with new technology and you get to keep your old bulbs.
First time I did this they put the soft serve ice cream flourescents in the house and I only had to flip one light switch to make the determination those pieces of shit were being replaced by Thomas Edisons beautiful feat of engineering.
This last time in the house they put in LEDs and I will admit they are on par with IC as far as light output, will work with a dimmer, and I assume are cheaper to run.
Take advantage of your "free" energy audit if its available, Im sure you are paying for it.
I too am a fan of IC bulbs because they work but.....
Every couple years I take advantage of the "free" energy audits the power company offers. These are "free" in the sense there is a line item in your bill every month that requires you to pay for them so Im just getting some service for my payments.
Any way someone will show up at your house and basically replace every bulb in your house with new technology and you get to keep your old bulbs.
First time I did this they put the soft serve ice cream flourescents in the house and I only had to flip one light switch to make the determination those pieces of shit were being replaced by Thomas Edisons beautiful feat of engineering.
This last time in the house they put in LEDs and I will admit they are on par with IC as far as light output, will work with a dimmer, and I assume are cheaper to run.
Take advantage of your "free" energy audit if its available, Im sure you are paying for it.
D
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The lead is not melting our leeching and finding its way to the spring our pond. Waterfowl hunting grounds from before the ban still have that old lead in the water and I'm still alive and so are the birds. I can start not paying out the ass for bismuth. Steel shot was inhumane in my opinion. Nothing piss off more than hitting a goose square and nothing but feathers. Bird dies a horrible death alone.
Short answer, No. At least, not without some other chemical present to leach it out into solution. Our Sporting Clays club is situated on about 50 or 60 acres surrounded by low-lying, marshy areas. Each year, TONS and TONS of lead are deposited into this soil (it is a very busy club, every day). The club manager told me that the state environmental agency has tested the runoff and surrounding wetlands for any increase in lead level (perhaps annually, or some other specified interval) and never has found anything.
Exactly. I'm glad I'm not the only one that remembers the frustration when we had to go to steel and started losing cripples.
pmclaine, I don't do the audits, but I'm learning to accept the newer LEDs. Those fluorescent spirals were bullshit and I wouldn't use them, but now that they've figured out the warmth in the LED lights, my gf can sneak a few into the house without me bitching about it.
No problem here. I'm in love with Hornady's GMX monometal bullets
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Watched Zinke give his speech at Main Interior the other day. I hope everyone there could read between the lines. Lots of changes coming to interior they better hold on to their collective asses. New sheriff in town. Park Service has some hard lessons coming as does BLM. Just like Trump I can't wait to see what he does next!
Lets hope he never ate a Chicken Kiev because the seditionists will be claiming it as evidence he colluded with Putin and tie him up in controversy rather than running his agency.
My bullets will continue to be chosen on the basis of their actual performance, and not some tree fugger's abominated pipe dreams of demagoguery.
Backlash, Baby; its what's for breakfast, Commies'...
Backlash, Baby; its what's for breakfast, Commies'...
Glad to see that ridiculous rule reversed! I don't buy into the left-wing crap that lead from hunting is having a negative impact on the environment - there's ZERO empirical data substantiating any claims about lead from hunting effecting water or wildlife. This was nothing more than a back door attack on hunting and gun owners.
When there are non lead bullets that work as well as my HVLD's, Partitions and other hunting bullets, and they're available at competitive pricing, I'll consider switching. Really, though, it's going to require an IMPROVEMENT over the quality and effectiveness of the best hunting bullets we have today before I (and others) are willing to switch.
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When there are non lead bullets that work as well as my HVLD's, Partitions and other hunting bullets, and they're available at competitive pricing, I'll consider switching. Really, though, it's going to require an IMPROVEMENT over the quality and effectiveness of the best hunting bullets we have today before I (and others) are willing to switch.
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