Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

[clmayfield]

A stated purpose of the 22LR competition was that we would learn from each other. I thought I would kick off a thread that specifically addresses this goal. Here are my learnings so far:

1) <span style="font-weight: bold">I need a spotting scope.</span> While I can see a lot of hits at 200 yards, I can't see all of them. In August's shoots, you can look at my first target and see that my wind dope was off. Had I gotten that right, my score would have improved dramatically. For now, I have fixed that by adding a practice target that is exactly like the normal targets, but I shoot ten shots and check it before shooting the actual targets. With that, I can check to see if my elevation and windage is off. If the wind changes, I am back to square one, but at least I know my starting point.

2) <span style="font-weight: bold">Follow through is all.</span> Before this, I have used a rear bag almost exclusively with a bipod. This comp got me out of the box and I am finding that while I am less stable without a rear bag, my reticle stays right on the target. It actually pointed out a flaw in my rear bag technique. As a result, while I am not as stable without a rear bag, I have proven to be just as accurate at long range (200 yards).

3) <span style="font-weight: bold">Shooting strategies for groups differ from shooting for score. </span>I haven't really shot for score before. There are nuances to shooting for score. For one, if a shot is off, you immediately correct for it in terms of POA for the next shot. The problem with this is that you can end up "chasing your tail." At 200 yards and even 100 yards, shots will be off simply because the 22LR isn't that accurate at that distance. If you overcorrect for a shot that flies out, you can get yourself into trouble.

4) <span style="font-weight: bold">Shooting strategies for score that I would probably not employ in real life.</span> In my most recent 100 yard shoot, I had a full value wind that was variable in magnitude. Rather than aiming dead center, I aimed to the right of the x-ring with the wind coming from the left. Basically, the idea was that if the wind was lower than I read, the shot would stay in the 10-ring. If it was higher, it would end up an X. As a result, my x-count dropped, but I maintained a high score. In competitions, this might be an effective strategy, but my X-count was lower than I would have liked. It is an interesting idea/tactic.

5) <span style="font-weight: bold">What wind would you rather shoot in?</span> While counter-intuitive, I prefer shooting in full value wind. In this scenario, even if the angle of the wind varies 10 or 20 degrees, it doesn't change your dope that much, so you can just focus on the magnitude of the wind. I have shot in practice with zero-value wind at my back. The problem is that it is never truly zero-value. If it whips around 10 or 20 degrees, it will have an impact. You have to read more than magnitude and focus on direction. This is a lot harder to do... and can be disorienting if you are trying to read wind at the target and at the shooter. This is really a tough situation. In August, I had full-value 10 - 15 mph winds and had no issues. In practice sessions, I have had zero value winds that have given me huge headaches.

I am interested to hear what others have learned! Thanks!

 

[Shiraz]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

on spotting scopes
Cheapie spotting scopes do not have the quality to see .22 cal. hits at 200 yards.
Others can chime in on what the minimun $ spend needed to see those little holes that far.

Also the position of the sun in relation to the target also factors in to seeing .22 holes at 200 yards.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

off the top of my head, my learnings:

1. shooting the 22lr in a serious manner identifies more shooting flaws better than most calibers i've shot and helps reinforce the good techniques. learned that good equipment, good matched ammo to that equipment, and technique is crucial to be successful. how valueable good optics are, and with the right homework and triggertime, 22lr is a fantastic round, i no longer call it "just a 22"

2. ditto to what you've said in the original post on scoring and groups, and that some tactics used for score IS different that "real life" shooting with a little bit of "gaming" going into it to produce a good score... but i believe it develops consistancy. 10 rings are more important to me than the X ring, as you stated both are worth 10 points, and the whole 10 ring is at least optically and mentally easier to hit for me (kinda like shooting center mass compared to head shots). i don't even mind a few 9's at 200 yards. attention to wind is in most cases just as or even more important than your equipment.

my opinion on your wind dilema, i also share your views on a heavier wind at a constant full value. easier to compensate and work with.

3. follow through as you said is vital, the 22 at long distance forces you to work on form.

4. spotting scope is nice, but i find it somewhat distracting at times which upsets my rythym. that's why i use higher magnification scopes to compensate.

5. the 22 has made me more fluent with my data book, wind meters, calculations, etc. as you really have to be up on what your doing or you'll score bad, which adds the pressure or stress factor of blowing a potentially good score.

6. having more problems with vertical tracking that with wind

7. i have always used a rear bag or some sort of support because, well, it or something rolled up was there to use and that it is a more accurate platform. these no rear bag matches have taught me that if i lay my right hand flat (i shoot leftie) i can put the very end of the stock just before the butt on my thumb which is surprisingly stable rest.

8. my long distance shooting with the .308 has improved by using / practicing / reinforcing the techniques and lessons learned in these matches, and is economical training for centerfires.

9. ta hell with the guy next to ya that's bustin your ass cause your shooting a 22. i'm shootin it better at 100 yards than they are shooting their centerfires at that distance at more than 1/2 the price, while getting in more shooting and having a great time.

still shocked there isn't more people doing it, maybe cause there are no prizes (other than knowledge and entertainment) to take away from doing it. there were orininally alot o interest with people wantin to do it, it seems like the same 4-6 guys every month.

if you really want to try something challenging, smallbore silhoutte is REALLY humbling.

 

[KAZ]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Interesting valid points. I'm not shooting at the 100/200 yds, but at the 50 yd 22LR benchrest (USBR) target. I'm a novice at 22 BR. What I've learned that parallels your experience.
1. shoot the best ammo you can afford(Eley Match $11/box rules the benches)because the others will give you fliers. I practice with SK Std Plus($4/box),but understand it's limitations.
2. 25 yds is fun, but the move to 50 doesn't double the winds impact, it quadruples it. So, at the 100/200 things can be crazy for certain.
3. We all shoot excellent equipment, it is a game of understanding the wind and the variables of 22RF ammo
4. Wind flags are as important as any other equipment. Recognizing a reoccurring condition, and holding the trigger squeeze until that condition comes around takes confidence/experience.
5. If, it were easy none of us would be doing it.
I admire those who are shooting at 100/200, perhaps when I get better at 50(I'm 245 out of 250 so far)I'll give it a try.

 

[curtisj]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Hi Everyone
First post here on 'The Hide'
Love the rimfire section. Lately, I've been doing
a lot of 22lr shooting at 200yards, while I haven't
joined in the competition yet, I'm having a blast
and learning something new every trip to the range.

Concur that cheap spotting scopes don't work with 22lr @ 200.
I have a Konus Konusspot 80 20-60 scope that isn't much help.
When you're not shooting competition targets, heavy bright white paper with target stickers are the easiest I've found for seeing those tiny holes. I usually use 2" stickers. Get the paper on as flat and smooth as possible as any little shadow will hide bullet holes.

Other shooters can be a PITA, but many are just
kind of dumb struck at someone shooting a 22 that far. They tend to have a lot of questions-gun, scope, ammunition, etc.
The questions are great, but shooters that haven't tried this don't realize how wind sensitive this shooting is and I've missed many calm cycles bs'ing with others.

Well kept log books are a huge help.

Trigger pull & follow through just like they teach in the training section, I'm still working on consistency.

Worst wind for me is a quartering tailwind, this chart helped me
http://www.uslink.com/~tom1/windvector.htm

FWIW I'm shooting a CZ452 American with a Nikon Buckmaster 6-18 scope (excellent scope for this type of shooting) on a 20moa rimfire technologies base with TSR rings
and a CZ452 Lux with a Falcon Menace 4-14 (wish I had another Nikon) with CZ rings

Hope this didn't go on too long.

Curtis

 

[PeteCamp]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">shoot the best ammo you can afford </div></div>

I agree with almost everything said here but this. The correct answer is shoot the ammo that shoots best in your gun. If others rag you because it isn't high dollar target loads, get a couple of boxes of high dollar, shoot 'em all up, and refill the boxes with what works in your gun.

I have been shooting now for almost a half century (that sounds bad!) and finally the little 22LR is being discovered for what it has always been - the best path to better marksmanship.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

i also learned that i may have maxed out on my current set up, (without putting more $ into it) as my scores for the last few months have pretty much stabilized, (mid 290's at 100, low to mid 280's at 200)and the groups look more and more like each other.

i've tried different ammos, scopes, zeroes, trigger settings, etc., but still have hit the wall. happy, but can be better; and honestly, just don't know if it's with what i got.

 

[kansas45]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

I have found all of the things you guys said to be true. I ordered the paper targets used for last monthe competion from my go to indoor range am waiting for them to arrive. I have the rectangle & round steel targets ready & have shot them for awhile now. What's on the agenda for this month? The .22 is a great training aid & is not just a plinker or 25 yd squirell gun.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Spotting scope. What spotting scope? If my rifle scope can't see my hits, it's set at too low a magnification. I use a 6-24X42 and .223 holes are visible at 200yd, so the same scope on a .22LR should be roughly as effective (and I have four of them). I will only use a spotting scope if forced to do so, it takes too much time to come off the gun and then set up my NPA all over again.

Follow through. No rear bag? I don't get it; if you can't follow through using the rear bag, maybe you're not using the rear bag right. I would definitely explore this possibility.

Strategies. Interesting. What you call chasing tail is more often referred to as chasing the spotter in LR comp, it is definitely viewed as a no-no, and is one of my own worst habits. The spotter tells you what the wind did to the last shot, not what it may do to this one. Watch the wind, screw the spotter (bullet hole).

Score strategies. You're holding off to favor a side in a wind. So do I. Aiming were it would be good to go when there's no wind is a good start, except once you get out to wind-dependent distances, there's very likely no such thing as no wind. Maybe wind you don't see, but there's always some.

Wind <span style="font-style: italic">at</span> the target tells you nothing. By the time the bullet reaches that wind there's no time left for it to act on the bullet, it's already in the target

Wind closer than that means more, and progressively so as it gets closer to the shooter.

Wind forces require time to perform their influence, and time after that for that influence's effect to track the bullet further away from the aimpoint.

The .22LR's cone of natural dispersion is actually fairly good. I think of it as being 1MOA at 50yd, 2MOA at 100yd, and 4MOA at 200yd. Much the same way as a 1/2MOA centerfire at 100yd becomes a 2MOA gun at 1000yd, and fortunate if that's as big as it gets. So think in terms of the bullet growing, being an inch wide at 50yd and 4 inches wide at 200yd, and now you're dealing with a fantasy that has some linkage to reality.

A preferable wind? Of course. Whatever one blows most often. Watching the flags prior to your relay will tell you which wind condition is the most common. Shoot a few in that condition with no holdoff/wind correction, and see its consequence. Then adjust to bring that deflection onto the target. Now, shoot a few at that adjustment during other, almost as common conditions, and see their added effect. Shoot in the preferred condition holding dead on when you can, and use holdoffs during the somewhat less common conditions when you must. On top of all this, assume the cone of natural dispersion.

And screw the spotter...

Greg

 

[Halfnutz]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KAZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting valid points. I'm not shooting at the 100/200 yds, but at the 50 yd 22LR benchrest (USBR) target. I'm a novice at 22 BR. What I've learned that parallels your experience.
1. shoot the best ammo you can afford(Eley Match $11/box rules the benches)because the others will give you fliers. I practice with SK Std Plus($4/box),but understand it's limitations.
2. 25 yds is fun, but the move to 50 doesn't double the winds impact, it quadruples it. So, at the 100/200 things can be crazy for certain.
3. We all shoot excellent equipment, it is a game of understanding the wind and the variables of 22RF ammo
4. Wind flags are as important as any other equipment. Recognizing a reoccurring condition, and holding the trigger squeeze until that condition comes around takes confidence/experience.
5. If, it were easy none of us would be doing it.
I admire those who are shooting at 100/200, perhaps when I get better at 50(I'm 245 out of 250 so far)I'll give it a try.</div></div>

Shot one of these last weekend. Winner of 10.5 class was shooting a Turbo action in a McMillan stock, cant remember what barrel. He shot a 244/250. If you are getting 245 you're doing well.

My son and I showed up with my old Ruger 10/22 in a Huge stock w/Houge barrel. I asked the RO that since my son was 15 and the only "junior" could he shoot the adult class. Looking at the rifle the RO says that we might want to leave him in the "Junior" class, cause... "these guys will chew him up". My son shot a 228/6x. Which happens to be a few points better than the RO shot with an obviously not stock Remington (540T?). Gotta love the underdog. I pulled second place with a 236/8x. That was with a 1 point penalty for a 6 ring shot on the same target as an X ring shot. Whether the 6 was mine or the guy's next to me I can't tell you. I didn't even bring it up, we were there to have fun, and we did.
When you show up for the last 22BR match of the year, after not shooting one since the one you shot last year, with a 10/22, topped with a 6-24 Tasco, and outshot guys with rigs that cost 3-5x what you have in yours...well like I said we had fun.

 

[KAZ]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

First of all another great thread CM!
Halfnutz, you and you Son shooting together is as good as it gets, I'll bet that he will be a 22RF Benchrest Champion before long. I'm shooting a 40X action, but, I lust after the Turbo.
Pete, My guess is that NO HIDE member shoots a particular 22RF to impress anyone, let alone putting less expensive ammo in a higher priced box. What I said was for shooting matches or testing I use Eley Black Box Match, and so does everyone else on the line. I also said that I shoot SK Standard Plus for practice. I chose this SK after testing all the other Eley versions looking for one of their less expensive ($4)versions. My rifle liked the SK Std +best of all of the others. Now, this SK will shoot into the 10 ring, but it will drop several out and make you last in a match. What you are getting with the more expensive ammo is consistency. Even with the Eley Match you will still have to test with several lots to find out which lot your rifle likes. Only scores will impress at a match. Regards

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

joe martin started the sh rimfire comp, haven't heard anything from him for about a month.....hope he's ok.

in the event he dropped off the face of the earth, i'll be more than happy to continue it month to month.

i've developed a target that has the same dimentions as the tq4 and a21, with a shaded area that's the same size as the gongs, so you can actually get 4 scores / comps on two targets.

if i should grab the reigns on this thing, rather than sending away and paying for targets, i'll try putting these things up for download for free.

was thinking about possibly getting prizes of some sort together, getting folks to send a registration fee in which you get a target sent to you. a week is designated to shoot, you send it back for scoring, you win the prize. registration fee is to cover prize and shipping.

what do guys think?

 

[macktheb]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

And you and your son did a terrific job......that kid can really shoot............If I remember corectly you were shooting Wolf ammo there at the Brush Creek Range...........by the way...........I was the guy next to you.....it wasent me that hit your target.......pretty sure it came from farther down the line................

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Spotting scope. What spotting scope? If my rifle scope can't see my hits, it's set at too low a magnification. I use a 6-24X42 and .223 holes are visible at 200yd, so the same scope on a .22LR should be roughly as effective (and I have four of them). I will only use a spotting scope if forced to do so, it takes too much time to come off the gun and then set up my NPA all over again.

Follow through. No rear bag? I don't get it; if you can't follow through using the rear bag, maybe you're not using the rear bag right. I would definitely explore this possibility.
</div></div>

I have a 3.5-15X50 NF NXS. On the black, I can't see all of the bullet holes at 200. Especially when there is mirage. Maybe I need more magnification... 15X is a lot for a 22LR already, but you're right. If I take the money spent on a spotter and spend it all on the scope, I could get a heck of a scope. But then I need to keep that level of spend for each additional scope. I agree, it has its minuses. Certainly, I wouldn't check after every shot, but it certainly burns time switching to a spotter.

As for rear bag technique, I am using it the same as everyone else (from a bipod), I imagine. I squeeze the bag at the tip of the buttstock to control elevation. The problem I have found is that the sand settles a bit on recoil resulting in the POA shifting upward about .2 Mils (about .5 MOA) after taking the shot. Actually, I believe the case to be that the sand settles. It might also be that the rifle moves back and then does not return to the original position after recoil is complete. Because the bottom of the stock curves downward, the end result would be that the reticle finishes slightly high.

This doesn't happen when I am not using a rear bag because either 1) my hand is firmer and stays in the same place or 2) my hand stays with the stock and therefore maintains position with the stock. I experimented with a new sand for my rear bag today and the results are promising. The problem is that I was also ammo testing and therefore changing a lot of variables at once.

For the record, I tried a condom filled with chromite sand inside a sock and then a balloon filled with chromite sand inside a sock. The balloon made for a firmer rest and was also less slick (I couldn't find an unlubed condom in the size I wanted). The balloon version was significantly better. 0.93 MOA average for the balloon versus 1.1 MOA for the condom.

As an aside, it is an interesting experience going to buy MagnumXL sized condoms at the local drug store.

 

[TDR911]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

As always you guys have a huge wealth of information . Since I started to shoot the 22 lr for training I have learned an increadible amount of control & my shooting has progressed tremendously.

I have not heard from Joe Martin either. Hope he is OK.

Paper target download would also be great.

I hope to enter this months competition. I work over 80hrs a week in the summer , but the work schuedule has slowed a bit so I can compete. I also gave up on my IDPA shoots as I had to work.

Keep up the good work.

Hey Carter . I laughed at the visit to the drug store. I am sure it was interesting.

 

[Halfnutz]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Nice to see you on here Macktheb, we hope to shoot in more of the matches next year. I know someone was talking about getting one of his own.

I asked if he wanted another Ruger, but I'm thinking we'll go another route. I am underthe impression mine is kind of an anomoly(sp).

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Your technique sounds rather typical.

I rebuild (or should) the relationship between bipod (or in my case, rest...), rifle, and bag for each shot. A more experienced shooter whom I deeply respect told me I should squeeze the ears rather than the bag. It helped. BTW, he has a very nice dog named Duke.

Money is not so critical for a .22LR scope. I use the Tasco VAR624X42M scope, with retails (locally, for me) at about $80, and has been secured by others on the site off the Internet for as little as $50.

It's a true Mildot scope which ranges at 10X, focuses down to 15yd, has 1/4" covered target knobs, and my four have stood up to some significantly durable service for going on 3 years now. It's not the brightest scope out there, but for the price, its features and performance have me pretty happy.

I think some folks take the .22LR a bit more for granted than might benefit them. As a trainer, it's very useful; and if they're training, there's absolutely zilch in the way of reasons not to take every same pain and precaution while shooting it as they would with a 'real' centerfire.

Greg

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I rebuild (or should) the relationship between bipod (or in my case, rest...), rifle, and bag for each shot. A more experienced shooter whom I deeply respect told me I should squeeze the ears rather than the bag. It helped. BTW, he has a very nice dog named Duke.</div></div>

I rebuild every time as well. Once you have established NPA on the horizontal plane, it is very easy to reestablish on the vertical plane after recoil. Thinking about my issue, if I am right and the rifle recoils correctly, but then doesn't come back exactly the same after the shot, then that is not really a follow through issue, as I count follow through as everything that happens up until the bullet leaves the bore. Perhaps this is why I am still able to get some good results with the issue. If this is the case, it is not really a problem at all, but I assume that it has been. Generally, I can tell by the recoil when I have really screwed up on the follow through, and a slight upward shift never feels that bad to me.

On the scopes, I have definitely tried to recreate a centerfire rifle. I take 22 seriously. I am using a mil-dot reticle and wouldn't shoot without it. How else am I supposed to make corrections based on previous shots.

Since my centerfires double as hunting guns, I tend to keep the magnification low enough to where I can turn the magnification down to 3X or 4X. More magnification would violate this principle, but since this really is primarily a target rifle, maybe I need more magnification.

Well, I actually have used this gun for varminting. 3.5-15 is perfect for that application. I guess this is the problem with a dual-purpose rifle.

 

[PeteCamp]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pete, My guess is that NO HIDE member shoots a particular 22RF to impress anyone, let alone putting less expensive ammo in a higher priced box. </div></div>

kaz....I understand that, but as is evident from reading lots of posts here, not every Hide member shoots in benchrest competition - or competition at all. For a trainer at 100-200 yards, Ten-X is not the most cost effective solution as the wind will blow it all over the place anyway. Best advice, IMO, is to find a good ammo that doesn't break the bank and shoot lots of it. High dollar ammo goes into the centerfire.

Besides, the plain ammo in high dollar boxes was a joke son!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> On the scopes, I have definitely tried to recreate a centerfire rifle.</div></div>

Carter...I think this is probably the most difficult aspect of a training rifle. Duplicating optics means either a high-dollar scope underutilized on a 22 or something far less precise and thus cheaper. I've been using a Nikon 4.5-14 but the turrets (or lack thereof) makes it less than ideal. Also, the amount of come-up available, even with the 20MOA base, has made me start re-thinking this. Maybe quick release rings and just swap scopes?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

I have mixed viewpoints on training and firearm duplication.

For me training is about the process, about the basics, and such and such a firearm is not really a big part of the issue for me. In this sense, I figure training to favor a specific firearm configuration may not be as ideal (for me, anyway) as developing skills at a generic level, and applying them across the board.

To me, shooting a rifle is shooting a rifle, and the important points are the ones held in common, and not the differences.

Greg

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeteCamp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
kaz....I understand that, but as is evident from reading lots of posts here, not every Hide member shoots in benchrest competition - or competition at all. For a trainer at 100-200 yards, Ten-X is not the most cost effective solution as the wind will blow it all over the place anyway. Best advice, IMO, is to find a good ammo that doesn't break the bank and shoot lots of it. High dollar ammo goes into the centerfire.
</div></div>

It is a valid point that at longer distances, wind compensation can be a larger factor than the inherent accuracy of the ammo. Don't discount the value of good ammo, though. I test extensively at 100 yards. At that distance, the difference between good ammo and bad ammo is about a 50% reduction in groups size for 5-shot groups. 50%!

Training with bad ammo offers up the same hazards as training with a gun that doesn't shoot well:
A) If in doubt, it is probably the gun/ammo's fault
B) Worse, make corrections to technique based on fliers that are the gun's fault
C) Lose grasp of what is achievable and what is not (i.e., where is my baseline)

 

[KAZ]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Well said Carter. I couldn't imagine ammo being such a factor in our 50 yard matches, and not coming into play at 100/200. Regards

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

chiming in on the ammo subject, as you guys know by many of my posts, i have tested, studied, ate, drank, and slept 22 ammo (at least through my mkii)more than any sane person should and when it comes to ammo and 22 rifles:

1. you must find an ammo that shoots through your particular gun, usually turns out to be a match type ammo. it's the difference between 4" groups or -1.25" groups. at 100.

2. whether that ammo is cheap bulk, or 20.00 for 50 rounds, generally the more expensive match stuff will group well at 100+ yards, have less fliers, and less misfires.

3. when you start shooting 100 + yards with a 22, 50 yards with a 22 becomes a bit easy and doesn't pose much of a challenge unless on extremely windy days, even with junk ammo. i wouldn't mind shooting bulk ammo at 50 because of this, and blazers work pretty well at this distance for me.

4. even the pricey stuff is less expensive than centerfire for 50 rounds and believe it or not the groups with the right setup are comparable with the centerfire not only at 100 yards straight up but when used on scale my 22 to .308 comparison table it is usually worth every penny for "the good stuff"

5. no need to spend a week in the basement reloading for one afternoon of shooting.

6. it's more expensive because 9.5 out of 10 times your paying for the performance and quality put into the manufacturing process (that's whay a chevy corvette is more expensive than a chevy cavalier)which as mentioned before, it becomes not the rifle's, ammo's, or scope's fault; or the fact that it's "only a 22", but the shooter's flaws. the right ammo / rifle combo IS THAT GOOD.

7. any doubts left look in here, you'll find cheap stuff and match stuff side by side with results 22 ammo test threads

 

[PeteCamp]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't discount the value of good ammo, though. </div></div>

I'm not discounting it by any means. And I certainly don't disagree.

I think my problem may lie in the fact that in West Texas I always have WIND. (Pretty close to Iraq.) The wind here is always a major factor. Reading the wind makes much more than a 50% difference in groups - more like 100%, or more.

There are days when it doesn't make any difference what ammo I shoot, it all looks like birdshot! On those days when I have a 25 or 30 mph swirling full value crosswind I just put the good stuff away. I guess that accounts for my feeling that reading the wind, in this part of the world at least, is far more important than ammo selection. The only thing that would help me is 22LR with a higher BC to help buck the wind better. My opinion anyway.

 

[KAZ]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Pete, I believe that we are actually looking at this the same way. For my 50 yd matches or for testing I use the Eley Match which my stick is tuned for by selecting the best lots to remove ammo as a variable. For practice I use SK Std Plus, and accept the fact that I will have flyer's. I can now call a flyer most of the time when it goes off. The wind is for sure in charge, and must be dealt with.
Top Pred, don't be to quick to discount the fact that benchrest comps are shot at only 50 yds. When you start trying to hit the X ring 25 times (for a 250 score) on a card it will have its moments. For the most part we are shooting excellent equipment. It is the wind that makes it a challenge. You need to shoot at least 248 to even be in the running. You should try it as it will do a lot to help you learn the wind at your 100/200 range.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

the thread is going off topic, but i have shot benchrest before, and even though i try not knock any shooting sport, my opinion of it is that it is more of a equipment game more than anything. i seen the whole windflag thing, and admire the shooters ability to judge th wind.

however when one mounts a rest to a bench and clamps down a rifle to it in the fashion that they do, and actual pull the trigger without holding the rifle in any form and not even looking through the optic while firing.... well just isn't my cup of tea.

smallbore silhoutte, now there is is an ever growing addiction of mine. humbles me REAL quick.

 

[Halfnutz]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

No clamping down a rifle in .22 Bench rest,

http://rba.benchrest.net/misc/rules.htm

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

this month (november 2009) i had learned the value of a barrel crown and rimfires.

i was loosing accuracy somehow, then i did a "redneck" crown job on my mkii using a case chamfer used for reloading. i rolled the dice thinking 3 things:

1. need new barrel or take it to the smith to correct my stupidity
2. improvement in accuracy
3. no change what so ever

luckily it seems the "redneck" crown job worked. back in group size to where i was, and if not for 3 "flyers" @ 5:00, would have reduced my group from 2" to 1.5" at 100 yards. by the 2 large holes punched in, seems the consistancy is back.

the 200 yd group also looked better, with even less signs of vertical tracking.

i used the same ammo and similar weather conditions as before.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Hmmm... my accuracy seems to have dropped off suddenly as well. I am still trouble-shooting it. I hate to mess with a gun that shoots... and this gun still shoots. Just not as well as it once did.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Returning to this thread:

Accuracy falloff.

Is everything as tight as it once was?

Is that crown really as crisp as it once was?

Could there be a degree of lead build-up in the extreme front area of the chamber?

Repositioning fore/aft following recoil...

I recently taped a wood block to the underside of the stock (my .260 F Class rifle), to use as a forward stop. After firing, the rifle is pushed back up in the rest until the block contacts the near edge of the rest's base. Helps consistency.

My method is just a quick and dirty fix. Something more permanent and more elegant is certainly possible.

Greg

 

[wksinatl]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Returning to this thread:

Accuracy falloff.

Is everything as tight as it once was?

Is that crown really as crisp as it once was?

<span style="font-weight: bold">Could there be a degree of lead build-up in the extreme front area of the chamber?</span>

Repositioning fore/aft following recoil...

I recently taped a wood block to the underside of the stock (my .260 F Class rifle), to use as a forward stop. After firing, the rifle is pushed back up in the rest until the block contacts the near edge of the rest's base. Helps consistency.

My method is just a quick and dirty fix. Something more permanent and more elegant is certainly possible.

Greg </div></div>

I think this one gets by a bunch of people.....including me.

Keith

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

I cleaned the crap out of mine yesterday. We will see how that impacts things. I am also interested to see how the cooler weather affects things.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmm... my accuracy seems to have dropped off suddenly as well. I am still trouble-shooting it. I hate to mess with a gun that shoots... and this gun still shoots. Just not as well as it once did.</div></div>

i've seen your pictures and your scores, i WISH i had your "fallen off" accuraccy.

the cooler will have a change in the POI, up to 2.25" in mine from summer to winter. my range data has 3 cards: spring / fall at 65*, winter at 35*, and summer 85*

KS - yes everything is tight, and torqued to spec. including the mounting lugs. i wasn't losing alot of accuraccy, but slightly going away. scope is tight, rifle is level, all was the same.

theonly thing i can contribute to the return of accuraccy was the "redneck gunsmithing" muzzle crown job.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

I was referring more to changes in group size than POI shifts. My groups were much tighter when I first bought the gun. I have not been able to replicate those groups since then. I ran out of that ammo, which I have blamed, but the weather changed as well, so maybe cooler weather = tighter groups?

My drop-off in accuracy might have been a statistical anomaly. I was shooting in the same hole at 50 yards, and then BAM! Big old cloverleafs and multiple holers. I am hoping it is lead buildup. Cleaning is easy enough. I hate to touch the crown. If I do a recrown, I will probably thread it for a suppressor as well.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

I used to have a (borrowed) .22lr chamber reamer that I used to manually/gently chase out the lead buildup in my chamber. I only did it with my 10/22 and the High Standard H/G. The barrel needs to come off to do it. These days, I don't have such demanding (BR) accuracy requirements, so I live with it. It's not a big thing, but essentially all rimfire chambers eventually accumulate this ring of lead, and need to get 'reamed' periodically. For peak/like new accuracy, it needs to go.

Greg

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I used to have a (borrowed) .22lr chamber reamer that I used to manually/gently chase out the lead buildup in my chamber. I only did it with my 10/22 and the High Standard H/G. The barrel needs to come off to do it. These days, I don't have such demanding (BR) accuracy requirements, so I live with it. It's not a big thing, but essentially all rimfire chambers eventually accumulate this ring of lead, and need to get 'reamed' periodically. For peak/like new accuracy, it needs to go.

Greg</div></div>

Thanks! I have read about the lead ring before, but didn't know exactly what it meant. I thought that whenever you clean, you end up getting the lead out. Is it possible to remove with solvent?

I know it is relatively easy to remove the barrel on your 10/22, but I don't feel comfortable unthreading the barrel on my 40X.

So you think solvent and a chamber mop could dissolve that lead, or do I really need a reamer? Thanks!

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

The most effective non-mechanical means I've found for .22LR lead deposits is Shooters' Choice Lead Remover solvent. It's a thick yellowish liquid that is applied to the bore and left to soak. It gets under lead deposits and loosens them. I have had it literally remove chunks of lead with a tight patch on a .45ACP and LSWC bullets. Very impressive, but I didn't have access to a borescope back then, so I couldn't say how thorough it was. The reamer is quicker and more definite.

Greg

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Yeah, I use Shooter's Choice. I know that there are folks out there who are fans of more modern solvents, but I read somewhere that Shooter's Choice is gentler on the bore long term.

 

[kirkhamg]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

I have had success in removing lead deposits using Kroil. http://www.kanolabs.com/ Available at Midway USA.

I have two of the scopes that Greg mentioned. (6-24x42 Tasco MilDot) The one on my Model Five is mounted in Burris Signature rings with the +/- 2 Bushings to provide for more vertical adjustment. While I am satisfied with the set-up, I would note that the mil setting is correct at 8X; but does not scale correctly by doubling the power setting. i.e. 16X is not ½ mil. I have also tested the vertical tracking, and each full revolution of the turret provided a different vertical measurement. It did return to zero each time. It is pretty clear. For the up-close stuff I use the 8X. For 100 + I have marked what is ½ mil dot to dot, on mine about 14.5X. I haven’t tried the 200 yard thing yet – I’ll get on that.

Thanks for the very informative thread.

 

[Stevemopa]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I used to have a (borrowed) .22lr chamber reamer that I used to manually/gently chase out the lead buildup in my chamber. I only did it with my 10/22 and the High Standard H/G. The barrel needs to come off to do it. These days, I don't have such demanding (BR) accuracy requirements, so I live with it. It's not a big thing, but essentially all rimfire chambers eventually accumulate this ring of lead, and need to get 'reamed' periodically. For peak/like new accuracy, it needs to go.

Greg </div></div>
I haven't cleaned my barrel in at least 1500 rounds and that was just 2 dry patches pulled through with my Patchworm. It's been difficult for me to break the habit of cleaning after every range trip. I think I will clean it tonight although I really haven't noticed any drop in accuracy. I thought I read somewhere that Anshultz does not recommend cleaning till 10,000rnds are shot, I may be wrong though. Here are my 50yd targets from today,10 shots per target. I think the BR shooters must only shoot 5 per target?

 

[Shiraz]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

I second whoever didn't like using a spotting scope.

I don't like to get out of my position to peek through a spotting scope.

In my opinion optics and ammo are the hardest equipment items to sort out with rimfire.

 

[clodhopper]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Added 1 1/2" length to the butt of my stock today. In prone It was nessacary to pull my right knee way forward and hold shoulder forward to get stock seated solidly on shoulder.

Groups tended to be tall.

But that can also be cheap ammo I've been useing. A local dealer in target ammo is fixing me up with many diffrent lots to try.

Tried five diffrent lots of ammo I had laying around today,
Best shooter was CCI green tag, then winchester expert HP bulk pack, followed by CCI standard velocity then Fed# 511B then Fed# 725 bulk pack.

Of course There was only 35 rounds of green tag on the ammo shelf. With a couple hundred Std velocity, couple thousand Feds sitting there. Quite a bit of the win. expert bulk pack but on my last box of this lot#

Next go round will be winchester target, mini mags, and 4 diffrent eleys, and some fiocci match.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

like clodhopper i have to do the same with my knee and shoulder, however i had to change it up today, i had layers of bulky clothes on. only did the short range and 100 yard portion, started shivering uncontrollably.

as it was 9 degrees out (1st excuse) i allowed weather to get to me, had to wear several layers of clothing (2nd excuse), had a surprising amount of misfires (3rd excuse)which threw my concentration off. i don't know if that had to do with the cold, or i got a "bum" batch of ammo. i know there are no excuses, but i tried.....

i like the 2.5" gong, it has proven to me that i have to step it up, and have to focus more on each shot. my score on the 2.5 was 20 of 25, if it was a 3.5" would have been 24 of 25, (i had one blown shot). i think we'll see shooting the smaller gong to be of value.

i also used the .22 magnum, was expecting better results, once again i let the weather get to me.

i also remembered why you don't put the magazine in mouth as a third hand in cold, it gets stuck to lips.

my dope was off for the first 6 shots, as i seldom get to shoot in temps in single digits, just shown me how much temp affects poi. about a 1" to 1.25" difference form 9degrees to 35 degrees. 35 degrees being what my winter dope is)

 

[Shiraz]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

The Biathlon guys I know are adament about keeping oils off the firing pin.

They have found oil or lube to gum up at cold temps.

This gumming prevents the firing pin from getting a good strike on the rimfire primmer.

This may be what caused most of the misfires.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

that thought was crossing my mind, i had four in a row in one mag, and some more alternating before and after. really got me POed and started the WTF attitude. i knew it started to affect the group so i went to the warmth of the vehicle, at least to get the feeling back in my index finger.

i usually don't have a problem with excessive misfires, that's probably what caused it.

new learning: in very low temps, blow out bolt and inerds with air in a can before heading to the range.

 

[clodhopper]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Really like the extended stock.
Being 6'2" and 235 lbs you might call me an easy target.
Every gun I have owned has had a standard stock.
Prone was pretty good but not solid like the bench.
Sitting was difficult with either no cheek weld or no pressure in the pocket of the shoulder.
Did enough standing to claw my way to AAA class smallbore silhuoette (standard rifle).
Today I arrived at the range with a rifle that has a 15 3/4" lenght of pull.
What a diffrence! if felt good! prone had an unusual solidness.
With and with out the pod.
Sitting.. well it worked! the rifle snuggled nicley in the shoulder and great cheek weld was right there.
Standing was good, but needed new foot position to get NPOA.
Good day at the range despite the cold. Did not check the therometer but my range is the coldest place for miles around.
It sits at low altitude (for around here) just a couple miles from Three Forks MT the headwaters of the Missouri river. and when the sun comes up cold air runs down hill in three river drainages to collect cold for my fireing line.
I may need an even longer lenght of pull once summer comes and multipul layers come off!

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

I built a few custom muzzle loading rifles for a feller and he required a 15.25" LOP. He now shoots very comfortable with those Hawken rifles. It makes a lot of difference.

My family and I spent three days up in that Three Forks area some years back when the kids were young and all of my family was into buckskinning. We saw lots of sights and of course Ft. Union. You are far north Clodhopper, that's for sure!

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Yesterday when shooting at 100 yards I didn't even think about it until now, but on the Lakefield MK I that I used I have a 3-9x32 Bushnell rimfire scope on it. It has a 50-yard parallax setting, not the thing to be using for 100 yard shooting.

I also made an edit where I posted yesterday's 100 yard score making a note of this. A person really should use a scope with an Adjustable Objective that can be set for 100 yards, or at least use a scope with a 100 yard parallax setting.

No wonder I was all over the target...

 

[clodhopper]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

The north is not as big a factor as alttitude, I live in the Gallitan valley, at my door step the alttitude is 4760 +or-.
When you tomatoes freeze off after the fourth of July do not bother to replant.
The only month it doesn't snow is hunting season. But living here it's either shoot in the snow and cold or don't shoot much. And that will not do.

 

[Breeze260]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread


Where is the best place to buy rimfire ammo?