Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

[JoeMartin]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

I get mine from whoever has the best deal at the time I'm ordering, and of course who has what I want in stock.

Midway USA
Natchez
Cheaper Then Dirt

to name a few.

There are more out there and I'm sure others will list some places.

Much also depends on what you're looking for.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

I have read anecdotally about group sizes increasing in the summer and decreasing in the winter. I didn't really believe it, but saw accuracy drop off when I ran out of a certain lot of Eley ammo AND the temperatures started rising. I went on a quest for the perfect lot of ammo... and could never achieve the heights of accuracy that I was reaching when I first got this gun. Until now.

Last weekend, I wasn't really shooting groups to measure, mainly to find zero. I ended up going home and measuring and the three 5-shot groups I fired AVERAGED 0.63 MOA at 110 yards.

This week, I shot my best 5 X 5 ever...

This 5X5 averaged 0.726 MOA with the biggest group being just a hair over MOA.

I tell you what... I am leaning towards the idea that moderate temps are best. It was a little below 80 today and in the same range last weekend. This is about what it was like when I had tight groups last year. I didn't even really feel like I was shooting well today. I am rusty as I have not been making it to the range my usual twice a week and actually missed about 3 weeks before going last week.

On the other hand, I also gave my rifle a thorough cleaning, but that was 2 sessions ago and I haven't cleaned it since. I guess if I knew exactly what caused great accuracy, I could bottle it, but it is still kind of a mystery to me. At 100 yards with a 22, there are so many variables, some days, I feel great and the holes don't fall in the right place, and some days, like today, I don't feel so great, but the holes seem to fall just right. Since I couldn't distinguish every hole, I didn't know I was having a good day until I walked up to get my target.

Anyone else notice any weather effects apart from wind that seem to impact accuracy?

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

through my own experience i've found that cold weather definately affects the point of impact, and i've noticed that when the air temp is "uncomfortable" either on the cold or hot side my accuraccy suffers. but i think that's more attributed to weather affecting the shooter (me).

i've read and heard conflicting data on the subject (some say better in cold, some say worse), but as i don't have a sophisticated shooting vise / rest and some type of fancy remote activated trigger mechinism (taking out the human element), i can't say that the accuraccy itself is affected.

i could speculate that the warmer it gets outside, the warmer the cartridge gets and causes some sort of added pressure in the ammo itself, which would probably cause some type of variance. i imagine the warmth of a hot day heats up the barrel to some extent also which would cause a variance.

i didn't think about doing this until now, but perhaps shooting in cold weather with the ammo in the vehicle getting warm would produce a different result than ammo sitting on the bench next to you.

in warm weather, putting the ammo on the a/c vent to cool, may cause another.

it's a fact that temperature, humidity, and altitude plays a big part in POI. but i don't know if weather affects the true accuraccy - in other words a change in POI and group size staying the same or a change in POI and group size getting worse or better in different temps.

i have noticed that both my rimfire and centerfire groups are better in the spring and fall at about 65 deg. and low humidity. whether it's because the shooter (me) is more comfortable at this time or the equipment is not yet a definite in my mind, but a changing POI is a definite in my mind.

 

[ida83704]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

For cold weather, I think the shooter is more affected than equipment. One can recalibrate sights for the temps, but you gotta be motivated to go out and shoot crummy in cold weather.

You gotta compete, alot of shooters don't like to compete because they think they will look bad in front of other shooters. This is bull, the only one you are truely competing with is yourself.

Like in life, there are always those who are better than you at something and there are always those who are worse, shooting is no diffrent.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

I would agree the shooter is more affected then the equipment in cold weather. Now ammo? I believe that is affected to a degree. Taking all this into consideration and add the fact you're probably wearing heavier clothing then when you have shot your best groups,,, I'd give the nod to weather being a factor.

As for those that choose not to compete. I don't have a problem with that.

Myself, I like competition. I compete against myself first, and then against others. I do believe it's human nature to want to make a decent showing regardless if it's against yourself or a group of shooters.

In all the years I have competed I have never paid any attention to what others were doing (scoring wise on the line). That would be a mistake to add worrying who's doing what in regards to what you are doing.

There is a lot to be learned at a shooting match. Ideas many of us may never have thought of before to make ourself a better marksman,,, and everyone is more then willing to share their thoughts with all that are interested when they're asked to do so.

 

[Shiraz]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

My $.02 here,

Look at all the competitions out there. For example

<span style="font-weight: bold">Handgun</span>
IDPA
IPSC
USPSA
NRA Bulls Eye
Silhouette
Air Pistol
bowling pin

<span style="font-weight: bold">Rifle</span>
CMP
NRA High power
NRA Small bore
NRA Air Rifle
3 Poisition
Silhouette
Black powder
Black Powder Cartridge
Tactical Rifle
3 Gun
Biathlon
running Boar

<span style="font-weight: bold">Shotgun</span>
Trap
Skeet
Sporting clays
Combat shotgun

I know I'm forgetting some.

Any shooter who competes and ends up in last place wins over any shooter who doesn't compete.

Shooters who compete, shoot more and are better defenders of the 2nd ammendment.

 

[ida83704]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

For the .22 Tactical matches, it is the mental aspect that can be a challenge.

It is tough to recover your mental game after you completely screw up on a course of fire. Like say hit 3 out of 10 shots when you normally would hit 8 of 10.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

this month (feb 2010) i learned that the lighter barreled mkii f model i used is more suseptable to the 1st shot "cold bore round" than my heavy barreled mkii bv.

my first shot was low about 3.25". about halfway through i took a break to get warmed up in the vehicle(26 deg f 6-10 mph wind).

my first shot after the 10- 15 minute break was in the same area, then the rest returned to the bull area.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

between being involved with the building of the mk ii f, setting up silhouette matches for the year, and getting a hold on doing taxes i haven't shot the mkii bv in awhile.

today i did the 200 yard prone a-21 and 5" gong, and the scores were down compared to previous months.

1. either being away from my "honey" since the beginning of the year messed me up
2. the winter weather is affecting the shooter more that the shooter thought it would, as he's getting older
3. the shooter is loosing focus due to too many irons in the fire.

point is, obviously a lack of practice and not being 100% focused at the task at hand affects the outcome.

the 5" round gong really is challenging compared to the 5x7 square. it's no surprise that typical evidence of vertical stringing scores better on the more vertical gong.

my lack of focus this month definately hurt performance, but i'll blame it on the weather and age

 

[Tactical22]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

When you guys shoot .22 out 200, 300, or even 400 yards, what muzzle velocity are you starting with? Subsonic (710-1100 fps) standard (1100-1200 fps), high velocity (1200-1310 fps) or hyper-velocity (1310-1800 fps? I understand that subsonic is more stable as it never goes transonic, but I have a hard time imagining that an 8oo fps projectile travels even semi-predictably at 300-400yds. Is hypersonic fast enough to get out to those ranges without going transonic? Do you shoot all four groups at different ranges, and just have data for all four in your log books?

 

[clodhopper]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

I'm shooting the high velocity.
My opinion is, during cold weather ammo has less pressure.
.22 ammo with the smal amount of powder in the case is more suspectable of being affected by cold.
Less consistent burn, lower group, more low impacts.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

i'm getting 1040 fps out of the aguila match.

my mkii doesn't seem to like the high velocity stuff past 75 yards, but clodhopper seems to be having good luck with the HV and his rifle.

i guess it comes down to matching the right ammo to the rifle for good results whether it's the slower match, standard vel., or high velocity.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clodhopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm shooting the high velocity.
My opinion is, during cold weather ammo has less pressure.
.22 ammo with the smal amount of powder in the case is more suspectable of being affected by cold.
Less consistent burn, lower group, more low impacts. </div></div>

I think Clodhopper is on to something here.

Wednesday when I shot my 200 yard gong scores using the 1085 fps Eley Sport, I had to come up an additional 18.5 Minutes from my standard (or what I thought was my standard MOA in warm weather) to a total of 94 Minutes - which includes the 20 MOA EGW Base;

Cold Weather (Wednesday - 30 to 36 degrees);

20 MOA EGW Base +
74 MOA Additional Elevation = 94 Minutes
****************************************
Warm Weather (Average 78+ degrees);

20 MOA EGW Base +
58.5 MOA Elevation = 78.5 Minutes
****************************************

I didn't take anyother ammo with me except the Eley Sport Wednesday so I wasn't able to check out the HV Fed. 510B 1240 fps, to see what it could or would do.

Maybe I can do some testing after work tomorrow or Sunday with the Fed. 510B and see what happens. Temps Sunday will be closer to this past Wednesday's temps - so maybe I can gather a little data?

 

[Shiraz]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joe Martin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Wednesday when I shot my 200 yard gong scores using the 1085 fps Eley Sport, I had to come up an additional 18.5 Minutes from my standard (or what I thought was my standard MOA in warm weather) to a total of 94 Minutes - which includes the 20 MOA EGW Base;

Cold Weather (Wednesday - 30 to 36 degrees);

20 MOA EGW Base +
74 MOA Additional Elevation = 94 Minutes
****************************************
Warm Weather (Average 78+ degrees);

20 MOA EGW Base +
58.5 MOA Elevation = 78.5 Minutes
****************************************
</div></div>

Joe,
the math on that doesn't work. 94 MOA up is what I need for 475 yards. Are you refering to clicks or MOA?

18.5, 1/4 clicks is 4.5 MOA

from 80F to 30F, a change at 200 yards of 4-5 MOA is pretty realistic.

Also a 20 MOA base does not factor in the UP. It just gives you more up. Does that make sense?

I don't understand.

 

[Shiraz]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Also winter biathlon ammo is faster than match ammo because of the cold

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shiraz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joe Martin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Wednesday when I shot my 200 yard gong scores using the 1085 fps Eley Sport, I had to come up an additional 18.5 Minutes from my standard (or what I thought was my standard MOA in warm weather) to a total of 94 Minutes - which includes the 20 MOA EGW Base;

Cold Weather (Wednesday - 30 to 36 degrees);

20 MOA EGW Base +
74 MOA Additional Elevation = 94 Minutes
****************************************
Warm Weather (Average 78+ degrees);

20 MOA EGW Base +
58.5 MOA Elevation = 78.5 Minutes
****************************************
</div></div>

Joe,
the math on that doesn't work. 94 MOA up is what I need for 475 yards. Are you refering to clicks or MOA?

18.5, 1/4 clicks is 4.5 MOA

from 80F to 30F, a change at 200 yards of 4-5 MOA is pretty realistic.

Also a 20 MOA base does not factor in the UP. It just gives you more up. Does that make sense?

I don't understand. </div></div>

Yes, I said that whole thing wrong... Long week...

Should have read clicks. Sorry about that.

 

[Shiraz]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/crazy.gif[/img]

No worries, mate.
I've got a high math geek factor so ..........

 

[kirkhamg]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

I shot some Fiocchi Biathalon last year when testing ammo. I did not chrono, but based on the noise level it was definetly faster than Wolf MT. It had a really funky silvery-white lube. The first few rounds shot like crap, until the lube seasoned the barrel, then it shot VERY well. Just wondering about the lube. Maybe hex-Bn-N suspended in a wax carrier?

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

My ammo runs between 1060 fps and 1080 fps as rated by Eley. I believe that I am slower than that because I am using a 32" barrel and 22LR velocity tops out at around 18", so a longer barrel should mean slower bullets.

I whole-heartedly agree that colder temps make for slower ammo. I have to dial in much more elevation during the winter, and altitude density doesn't completely cover the difference in drops. I am loathe to write it, but I think that I actually need different ammo for the summer time and the winter time. The stuff I am using now was killer in the summer, but performed less than ideally in the winter. That said, the best 5X5 I have ever shot happened on a pretty cool day... the 70's as opposed to the 90's / 100's when I tested this lot.

I still think that sub-sonic ammo is best. First of all, you don't have to worry about going transonic, which is a big fear at 100 and 200 yards. Secondly, 22LR bullets just seem to stabalize well at subsonic speed... and while it seems like a slower bullet will take more of a beating from the wind, subsonic speeds actually help in wind-bucking capability. Third of all (and related to the above), the 100 yard 22LR benchresters shoot subsonic.

For fun, I ran the Eley Bullet in JBM at 1080 fps and 1250 fps. Surprisingly, at 1080, the windage correction for 10 mph wind is 3.8 MOA for the 1080 fps bullet and 4.9 for the 1250 fps bullet. That's right, wind will affect supersonic bullets MORE. All that extra speed buys you is less elevation adjustment. Well, when you are target shooting, who cares about elevation corrections? Dial it in and forget it.

I think the problem here is that people take their knowledge of centerfire (faster is better) and apply it to rimfire. The dynamics of a bullet flying faster than Mach 1 are very different from one that flies slower than Mach 1. Try it yourself.

Interestingly, I compared a subsonic 308 with a heavy pill (240 grains) to a "normal" velocity 175 grain pill. The result? The subsonic bucked wind much better, but you run out of elevation at around 350 yards... if you are ranging targets, you basically have to be dead on, so not a great field round, but from a windage perspective, slower is better.

 

[ida83704]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My ammo runs between 1060 fps and 1080 fps as rated by Eley. I believe that I am slower than that because I am using a 32" barrel and 22LR velocity tops out at around 18", so a longer barrel should mean slower bullets.</div></div>


<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">You can back into your MV, what is your elevation(or town you are near), what is your MOA up at 200 yards from a 50 or 25yard zero, and at what air temp?</span></span>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I whole-heartedly agree that colder temps make for slower ammo. I have to dial in much more elevation during the winter, and altitude density doesn't completely cover the difference in drops. I am loathe to write it, but I think that I actually need different ammo for the summer time and the winter time. The stuff I am using now was killer in the summer, but performed less than ideally in the winter. That said, the best 5X5 I have ever shot happened on a pretty cool day... the 70's as opposed to the 90's / 100's when I tested this lot.</div></div>


<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">The calculation for the change in air density and the change in the speed of sound in colder air is pretty dialed in at this time. At the atom/molecule level, things slow down when cooler. I think that in cooler temps the ammo is not getting the same vigorous burn at it would when it is warmer. Another factor may be bullet lube, what works at room temp may not like 40 degrees F.</span></span>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I still think that sub-sonic ammo is best. First of all, you don't have to worry about going transonic, which is a big fear at 100 and 200 yards. Secondly, 22LR bullets just seem to stabalize well at subsonic speed... and while it seems like a slower bullet will take more of a beating from the wind, subsonic speeds actually help in wind-bucking capability. Third of all (and related to the above), the 100 yard 22LR benchresters shoot subsonic.</div></div>


<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">I've experiance transonic instability with centerfire and it is real. Rimfire is diffrent, I'm sure the projectile de-stabilizes while transonic, but the results of this seems much smaller with the .22 bullet than centerfire. Could be its width to length ratio, round vs. spitzer nose, something. Cold winds 'push' a bullet more than warm winds because they are denser.</span></span>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For fun, I ran the Eley Bullet in JBM at 1080 fps and 1250 fps. Surprisingly, at 1080, the windage correction for 10 mph wind is 3.8 MOA for the 1080 fps bullet and 4.9 for the 1250 fps bullet. That's right, wind will affect supersonic bullets MORE. All that extra speed buys you is less elevation adjustment. Well, when you are target shooting, who cares about elevation corrections? Dial it in and forget it.</div></div>


<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Run the same bullet at say 1600fps, it will be even worse in the wind. If I remember this gets worse exponentially</span></span>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the problem here is that people take their knowledge of centerfire (faster is better) and apply it to rimfire. The dynamics of a bullet flying faster than Mach 1 are very different from one that flies slower than Mach 1. Try it yourself.</div></div>


<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">There is no shockwave in front of a subsonic bullet, which simplifies things ballisticly</span></span>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interestingly, I compared a subsonic 308 with a heavy pill (240 grains) to a "normal" velocity 175 grain pill. The result? The subsonic bucked wind much better, but you run out of elevation at around 350 yards... if you are ranging targets, you basically have to be dead on, so not a great field round, but from a windage perspective, slower is better.</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">That is not apples to apples, but the result is the same run a 240 vs. a 240, or a 175 vs. a 175</span></span>


[edit, fix bold, quotes]

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Thought this might make a nice addition to what Carter posted to kick off this thread. Number 9 below stood out in relationship to our own SH Short Range 4-Position Match.

Proficient Rifle Shooting.
I have been wanting to address this issue for awhile on proficient rifle shooting, how to be, and how it's done. Learning to shoot a rifle well is not all that difficult for the most part it is more a mind-set than it is a physical act.

When training yourself to shoot a rifle, practice is always needed for sure but in your mind you have to know that whatever your intended target is, you will be able to put a bullet right where you want it. One shot one kill.

The basic fundamentals:

1. Shooting glasses are a must, you must fully protect your eyes so as no dust or debris blowing in the air on the range gets in your eyes, it's pretty hard to clearly see your target if your eyes are blinking or watering from dirt or other small debris that has gotten in them.

2. Hearing protection, muzzle blast flinch causes more eratic shooting than a recoil flinch, muzzle blast from a modern high power rifle is pretty severe and will cause even good rifle shooters to miss their mark.

3. Breathing is another critical issue in becoming a good rifle shot. You simply cannot shoot well while inhaling or exhaling, you must hold your breath while squeezing the trigger. This must be practiced until it becomes second nature, or, part of your mind-set.

4. Trigger pull is very critical and this one little thing has more to do with flyers in a group of well placed shots than anything. Squeeze the trigger, you've heard it a million times but you most likely still jerk the trigger.
Simple question; If you fire a series or string of shots does your rifle startle you everytime it goes off?
If yes, you probably do squeeze the trigger.
If no, then you are definately jerking the trigger.

5. You must shoot from a solid rest of some sort in order to gain confidence in yourself and your rifle. Shooting benches and rifle rests are critical items in learning to shoot well and gain confidence.

6. When at the range for a day of shooting, know your ability for the scope and rifle capability that you are shooting that day. In other words, if there is a cross wind blowing that day on the range of about 10 mph don't try shooting a .22 rimfire at 100 yds. unless you can accurately dope the wind for each shot. Instead shorten your range to about 25 yards for the above mentioned situation.

7. Shoot often, every chance you get to visit the range go out for a day of shooting and vary the distance at which you shoot. You should vary your distance by sight and not tape measure, unless of course when hunting each animal you shoot at is at a given distance all the time.

8. Practice all the above 7 things till you become proficient with a rifle, shooting, from a solid rest and bench.

9. A solid rest isn't always available, and you must shoot from a prone, sitting, kneeling or standing position. So practice each and every one of these until they become like second nature or part of your mind-set. This can be done at home in your yard, garage, or even in your house.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Good stuff, Joe. I admit that I do not use shooting glasses with a 22LR. Shooting glasses fog up on me really easily and are distracting... more distracting that getting dust in my eyes. I probably should, but with rimfire, I just don't.

As to holding your breath, using the SH training, I have worked on training myself not to hold my breath, rather, I shoot during the bottom of my respiratory pause. If I have to, I will extend the pause, but no more than 1 - 2 seconds. I haven't done this completely. From time to time, I will catch myself holding my breath... and then there are times I do it on purpose to get the shot off quickly, but at least then, I know what I am doing and why I am doing it.

I think 9 is great. I really do need to work on my alternate positions.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

this month (MARCH 2010), for the 100 and 200 yard targets, i went back to the mkii BV, which is seemingly more accurate than the "F" model. i'm not sure if it's the heavy barrel or the lighter trigger (or a combination of both), but the BV is a sweeter shooter.

some time soon i'll raise the poundage in the BV's trigger to match the F's pull, and give a more "apples to apples" comparison of the difference (if any) of the regular vs. heavy barrel.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Revisiting; the part about BR shooters keeping oil off the firing pins doesn't elude me, but I wonder if maybe their reasoning is biased against lubricants that gum up. If so, I understand their reasoning, but also suggest there are lubricants that might serve better.

First to mind for sliding parts, like sheet metal rimfire firing pins, and trigger assemblies, is plain old Singer Sewing Machine Oil, available at Walmart where the sewing fabrics and accessories are sold. A fairly reasonable solution to a fairly common problem. Besides, these parts might respond well to occasional hosing out with Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber and fresh lube.

Secondly, I like RN 40gr projectiles moving pretty consistently at a nominal MV of about 1070fps. For my dollar, the CCI Standard Velocity Target in the blue box with red and white markings is my most economical choice. It shoots indistinguishably from my hoard of FGMM Target stuff.

Finally, not being able to see .223 bullet holes at 200yd is not uncommon. I should have clarified that I design and print my own targets, and use 60% gray fill for my dark target zones. Dark enough to use for irons (as long as the aiming zone is 3MOA or better), and light enough to provide good bullet hole contrast with optics. I always design my targets with a white 1/2MOA X/V ring and a gray 1MOA 10/5 ring, ala an F Class difficulty level. Iron sight targets get their next wider two rings filled in with gray as well; and I <span style="font-style: italic">have</span> been known to design some according to a Palma difficulty level (1MOA X-ring, 2MOA 10-ring). Optical targets get darkened with just the 1MOA ring. It's less busy, gives proper contrast and aiming reference, and is easy enough to design with a simple CAD program.

I am toying with the idea of building a stock to house my very Plain Jane Savage MKII, just something with ergonomics that fit my 6' 5 1/2" frame a tad more compatibly.

The bedding principle may turn out to be something slightly unorthodox. Thinking about using scope rings to build a barrel-based retention system, and possibly some sort of flexible/resilient interface/union with the stock.

I mean; it just wouldn't be <span style="font-style: italic">me</span> if it was something pedestrian and purely mundane...

Greg

 

[HathcockProtege]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Good stuff. I've learned a ton since joining. Finally got my new rifle yesterday. Cleaned it and mounted scope today...ready to rock and roll tomorrow after class (I hope).

[img:left]

[/img]

"Gordita"; Savage Mark II-FV in .22LR, BSA 4-16x40 MilDot, Weaver X-high Quadlock rings, shooters ridge bipod and strap I had laying around.

My 1k Benchrest buddies (who are not rimfire experts..I know) say that most .22 LR bullets have such a low BC that the transonic destabilization effect is almost negligible. The thinking being that "It's almost like your shooting a round ball..." Thoughts?

-The Kid.

 

[Neo]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

OK I just made my first post to the 100yd comp and would have to say the thing I learned the most was the value of NPA. My first shot on the second target is the one that clipped the 10 rings and almost cost me a 250. After the shot I was like "what the hell" then checked my NPA and sure as can be it was dead on the hole I just put on the target.I Took a deep breath reset and shot the rest of the string. Just my $.02

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

that is one hell of a group and score!

look out carter.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Finally, not being able to see .223 bullet holes at 200yd is not uncommon. I should have clarified that I design and print my own targets, and use 60% gray fill for my dark target zones. Dark enough to use for irons (as long as the aiming zone is 3MOA or better), and light enough to provide good bullet hole contrast with optics. I always design my targets with a white 1/2MOA X/V ring and a gray 1MOA 10/5 ring, ala an F Class difficulty level. Iron sight targets get their next wider two rings filled in with gray as well; and I <span style="font-style: italic">have</span> been known to design some according to a Palma difficulty level (1MOA X-ring, 2MOA 10-ring). Optical targets get darkened with just the 1MOA ring. It's less busy, gives proper contrast and aiming reference, and is easy enough to design with a simple CAD program.
</div></div>

I think the fact that I am shooting at black paper is a large part of my visibility problem. For sighters, I use a white sheet of paper with a 1" dot in the middle and I can usually see those pretty well. Sometimes, shooting at the black, I can't see a single hole until I walk up on the target, which means that I can't adjust for changing conditions very well.

I was going for boosted magnification, but maybe custom targets is what I need. Or a spotter. One day at the range, I was borrowing a Bushnell Elite and while I couldn't see any of the holes with my NF NXS 3.5-15, the spotter showed me everything I need to see.

A cheap spotter would probably do for this duty, but I am trying to save up for a nice one that would shoot me for longer ranges with larger calibers as well.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that is one hell of a group and score!

look out carter.

</div></div>

I saw that. Crazy! Thing is, I think I am maxed out. I don't have any more juice. Maybe Eley will make me some better ammo...

 

[melissajoan]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

i like the 2.5" gong, it has proven to me that i have to step it up, and have to focus more on each shot. my score on the 2.5 was 20 of 25, if it was a 3.5" would have been 24 of 25, (i had one blown shot). i think we'll see shooting the smaller gong to be of value.
i also used the .22 magnum, was expecting better results, once again i let the weather get to me.

Lifestyle

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

as melissajoan said above, i like the 2.5 gong for the same reasons. today would have been 25 of 25 with the 3.5, but it turned out to be 19 of 25.

the wind persuaded me to do 200 yards at another time. however i chose to shoot the windy conditions at 100, as i chose today to be "SH comp day", no matter what the weather. i believe it is important to shoot in the wind, on purpose, to get that valuable data, experience, and estimation capability.

200 was just too unmanageable with the wind going from an average of 7 mph to gusting 12 mph, down to 5 mph every dozen seconds - and swirling. i guess i learned what my capabilities / limitations are, and most importantly, learned even more on when not to take a low percentage shot, even if it is just paper.

the 100 target looked worse through the scope, but once i scored it it didn't seem as bad as i thought.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

had an idea to shoot this month rightie as i shoot leftie.

figured it may be of some value to "backwards" and compare the two.

might do it for May, unless i can get some range time in before april is gone.

thoughts on a "reverse position match"?

 

[clodhopper]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Reverse position match would be a good enough reason for me to shoot wronghanded.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

i have an eye dominance thing in which my left eye takes over, and i have to close my right or i get a whole lotta wierd stuff happening in the glass (double image - very distracting).

for "hunting" and spotting, i always closed my right eye so i can focus entirely on what my target's mannerisms were so that i can concentrate better on taking it down by anticipating what it's going to do next and adjusting on what those mannerisms were, plus it helped me see vapor trails and any splash a whole lot better. shot that way for 25+ years and served me well. my instructors also promoted me to shoot that way as it was more productive for me.

while shooting SB silhouette this month i got a case of the "yips" and tried both eyes open, as i had nothing to lose. at first i got the ol' double image thing, then i tried focusing more on the crosshairs and not so much on the target (like shooting open sights, focusing on that front sight and "blurring" the target), and the double image thing that plagued me for years didn't seem so distracting, and the steel started to ping more often. obviously paper targets or silhouette steel don't have mannerisms or move about, i figured i didn't need to be so focused with one eye on, so i ran with it. it seemed to work so i carried it over to the comps this month.

while over a quarter of a century of shooting style isn't going to change in a few afternoons, i did realize that once i focused on the crosshairs more than the target, the rounds fell into place more often, actually taking me by surprise that they impacted where they did and probably continue to surprise me until i get more used to it, as for me it is still awkward with both eyes open.

while not my best scores this month (May), it was one of my better groupings from a bipod with no rear support, both at 100 and 200 yards.

i wanted to also shoot this month opposite sided (i now shoot leftie, want to practice more rightie). although i can hold my own shooting rightie, it still trails my leftie shooting, and it would be interesting to see if i can up my rightie shooting and compare what the score would be. but since this eye thing came up, i'm going to work on that first.

i'm hoping to use "my 2 eyed style" on the short range comps, and see what happens.

 

[pale horse]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

when reloading shotgun ammo cold weather effects the way pellets cut tru the air I would think 22lr pills would do the same so yes cold weather effects 22lr

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

on the above, i confirmed for myself that in the hotter weather the rounds were hitting higher, which is what i excpected from last year's "dope" - combination of air density, thermals, mirage.

july's learning #1 - keep data books for all seasons, trust in the information you put in it for the next year.

finally shot the 100 yard on the support side, and although the score was low (no surprise), i actually liked the group and the same held true for what i found out shooting the support side short range 4p matches - a "relearning" of the importance of trigger squeeze, breathing, cheek weld, follow through, etc. plus the "wrongsided" shooting is great training for having to take odd shots in the field where the "normal" isn't practical due to cover, terrain, approach of target, injury, etc.

the last 2 months my groups have opened up again, time to scrub the barrel. perhaps it's also a combination of fouling and becoming complacent with the fundamentals and not paying enough attention to the fundamentals.

july learning #2 - the fundamentals of shooting well shouldn't be a "gimme", they have to be addressed each and every round.

however a thought came to me as i watched my shots spread out - 4-5 years ago i thought a 6 inch group at 100 yards was "pretty good" with a .22. after taking the rimfire more seriously since then, i now get pissed and frustrated if i get a + 1.5" group at 100. so putting things in perspective, i can't get to critical of myself.

plus i still think i have "hit the wall" with the performance of my equipment. with the exception of a few 1.5" or under groups here and there, i'm averaging the same sized groups / scores over the last year. i can go back to using wolf ammo which will pull in those groups, but will be depleting my ammo budget. of course using a rear bag will help, but still there is a limitation to what my equipment and ammo will do.

july learning #3 - once you are satisfied with your shooting ability, accept what the limitations of equipment and ammo will do as far as performance goes, and have fun with it. you can't win the daytona 500 in a prius. it is what it is, to prevent being frustrated, either live with what you got or upgrade, as long as YOUR ability can keep up with the upgrade.

although the MKII is no slouch, im sure (what i believe to be) an upgrade to a CZ, sako, anschutz, etc. would produce better scores / more consistant groups, and may have to upgrade in the near future to take my shooting to the next level.

 

[mouse07410]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Most people say that CZ has better finish/polish and attention to details (a <span style="text-decoration: underline">nicer</span> gun) - but that same lot says that CZ shoots about the same as Savage MkII (re. group size and consistency). So why would you call it an upgrade accuracy-wise? These two seem to be in the same class.

Now Anshutz would be in a higher class - and would probably cost two-three times as much (indeed an upgrade that you wallet is likely to notice

).

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
july learning #2 - the fundamentals of shooting well shouldn't be a "gimme", they have to be addressed each and every round.

however a thought came to me as i watched my shots spread out - 4-5 years ago i thought a 6 inch group at 100 yards was "pretty good" with a .22. after taking the rimfire more seriously since then, i now get pissed and frustrated if i get a + 1.5" group at 100. so putting things in perspective, i can't get to critical of myself.

plus i still think i have "hit the wall" with the performance of my equipment. with the exception of a few 1.5" or under groups here and there, i'm averaging the same sized groups / scores over the last year. i can go back to using wolf ammo which will pull in those groups, but will be depleting my ammo budget. of course using a rear bag will help, but still there is a limitation to what my equipment and ammo will do.

july learning #3 - once you are satisfied with your shooting ability, accept what the limitations of equipment and ammo will do as far as performance goes, and have fun with it. you can't win the daytona 500 in a prius. it is what it is, to prevent being frustrated, either live with what you got or upgrade, as long as YOUR ability can keep up with the upgrade.

although the MKII is no slouch, im sure (what i believe to be) an upgrade to a CZ, sako, anschutz, etc. would produce better scores / more consistant groups, and may have to upgrade in the near future to take my shooting to the next level.



</div></div>

This is sage advice. It is seemingly contradictory, but it is not. The fundamentals are absolutely key... if you know your baseline and you are not living up to it... the fundamentals are the first place to look.

But ultimately, with the 22 @ 100, you are going to bump up against a wall... and that wall is your equipment and your ammo. It is tough to know whether you've hit that wall yet, but when you can shoot 25 consecutive shots that you believe to be flawlessly executed, you get a sense of what your rig can do.

Now, it seldom happens that I shoot 25 consecutive flawless shots. There are times when I will not have perfect execution and the shot goes in anyway... and there are times when I have flawless execution and a shot wanders off the mark. That element of randomness is part of what makes rimfire so enjoyable.

 

[JR_V]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

All I have to say is I was shocked how much better I did when I was not fighting the mirage like I had to in the May comp. When I shot the May comp I had to dial down to 8-10X and still had an ass ton of mirage distorting the target. With the target setup where it was the x ring was about 6" off the ground, so I changed the target location to get it higher off the ground resulting in a lot less mirage in the June comp. Was much easier to spot my shots through the scope with no mirage and 14X power. Also I liked shooting the target backwards with the one dot.

Now I got to make sure I break my shots on my natural pause in breath as my vertical stringing looked like a breathing issue. My hand did seem to be more used to being my rear bag this time too. I crush the crap out of it though when obtaining my cheekweld. Lots for me to still learn and work on.

 

[Tuna921]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

This is a wind chart I made for 22LR. Made four to a page as it was to big I have it in PDF it you want to print it out



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[hrt4me]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Interesting wind chart

 

[SmallBoreSnipers]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Hey guys. Haven't posted in this section before. I was wondering is anybody has any tips for a gong issue I have.

I normally shoot the 25 round 2.5" 100 yard gong. Once I'm about half way through, there are too many holes for me to really see where exactly I'm hitting the gong. So if my POI is drifting on me for any reason, I don't know until it hits the line, or even worse, misses.

The only idea I really have to solve this is to fire about 12 rounds, then tac a new target up exactly on top of the one I was just firing at, and have a "fresh" gong to finish out the match with. Of course all rounds will pass through the first target, leaving me with the original underneath with all 25 rounds.

Any tips on this? Does anybody else practice something like this?

 

[kansas45]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Heck SBS, I don't know. Draw circles on a shoot & see?

 

[SmallBoreSnipers]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

^ I thought of that one too. Trace the line of the gong so it comes through the other side (I usually do this on the TQ-4 so I'm aiming at only one small circle). Fire 12 rounds, then center a 3" shoot n c exacty over the gong on that same target, and then finish off the next half of rounds. Flip it over and there's my target. Might try that one out.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

SBS, you could probably just take a compass and draw five to six - 2.5" circles on standard printing paper, fill the circles in with a black magic marker, and take that to the printers and have them run you some copies?

Have you seen my "washer target" set up? If not, here's a picture. I just made these swinger targets from washers I got at the hardware store, bolted them onto a mending brace I turned im my shop vise, and hung them on threaded bar. I'll also locate a link here on how I set up the washers. I don't know how they'd do with the .17HMR?

Here's that link to the washer targets I made;

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061447#Post2061447

 

[SmallBoreSnipers]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

^ That's a good idea too. I can't make any swingers because I don't have my own land, or land I can go to. I'm in a pretty populated area, so I need to go to the range, and they won't allow them there.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

because i think you are swell, and i have no life, i threw this together....

 

[SmallBoreSnipers]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

TP that is FREAKIN PERFECT. You're AWESOME man! The way I see it, it's just giving you a fresh gong every 5 rounds. If you can land 5 rounds in each circle, then it still shows that you can hit the same amount of space 25 times. I think the size and number of rounds per target is a good place for a target like this anyway. I hope that a lot of other competitors will appreciate this as well. So is this an official new match in the rimfire comps??

 

[kansas45]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

Say, TP..........that IS a great target! Now if only I could print the thing I would be happy.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Learnings from Rimfire Comp Thread

I ran a couple 100-300 yard .22LR matches at the local club this summer, have another coming up this weekend.

Info for it is here:
http://reloading.jimdo.com/downloads-1/precision-long-range-22lr/

My write-up about the match has a lot of information about stuff that I've learned and there are some match results on the side links too with some photos of the results under non-ideal conditions.

I think the biggest lesson learned is that the old "what my rifle likes" results at 50 yards are pretty meaningless if the ammo has high velocity SDs. It may do well at 50, but you get a lot of vertical stringing at 200 and 300 yards. The old Lapua Master and Master M ammo seems to have amazingly low SDs over all of the lots I have tried.

Got this group at 300 yards under dead calm conditions (not part of the match):

My set of gongs for practice:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/kombayotch/Firearms%20Stuff/2mhxyc6.jpg