Led sled twisted my swfa reticle

[Whitshot]

Well just thought I'd share. I have an SWFA 5-20 HD and over the course of approximately 100-200 rounds in a led sled the reticle got canted significantly. I was unaware of any precedent for this until I had the problem. In fact I didn't know it was canted until I replaced the mount and upon leveling it found it was off.

The rifle is an RPR in 6.5 creedmoor. Hardly a recoil beast?‍

I know what your thinking... why use a led sled for a creed?! Well.... load development. I've gotten consistent sub 3/8 moa out of this gun setup like this. With out the sled I couldn't consistently rule out shooter error. With it I'm much more confident in my ammo analysis. So I'm. It looking to start a debate but just share my experience. It seems clear to me that the use of a led sled most likely contributed the degradation of my scope. Which I think is a fairly robust model.

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[northern50]

Use some pine Rosin on the rings when you mount a scope. Don't buy the expensive stuff from the gun shop.. get a bag at A sports store or something of the like.

 

[...]

....what scope rings are you using?......

sounds more like a ring problem than a led-sled problem

 

[JMGlasgow]

Or just buy good rings and torque them correctly. Using rosin is a thing if the past when rings weren't machined very well.

 

[308pirate]

It is a sorry craftsman that blames his tools

 

[NewsShooter]

I must be dense, how did using a lead sled cause this issue?

 

[lash]

Or just buy good rings and torque them correctly. Using rosin is a thing if the past when rings weren't machined very well.

I agree. Quality rings. Why spend big bucks on a scope and then cheap out on the rings?

Okay, I'll admit to trying the cheap route once when I started. Bought a used set of Seekins rings and never looked back.

Seekins, Badger, Night Force, Vortex, ARC, Spuhr, RRS, Geissele. Buy quality, get good results. Unfortunate, but true.

 

[SRPowah]

"Twisted the reticle"

No, your whole scope spun in the rings. So was it cheap rings or improper torque?

 

[pell1203]

Mildly confused! Are you saying the entire scope rotated on the rings, or that the reticle itself, shifted inside the scope?

The first you can address by mounting with quality rings ensuring all screws are torqued to proper values per manufacturer's recommendations while incorporating the rosin trick suggested by northern50. Easy to do.

The latter will require the scope be returned to SWFA for repair or replacement under their excellent warranty.

From the pictures I'm thinking you experienced the first. In either case, you will be made whole again.

Edit to add: Disregard my post, answered a quick phone call while writing this and my concerns/suggestions have been already addressed by many others.

 

[vh20]

"Twisted the reticle"

No, your whole scope spun in the rings. So was it cheap rings or improper torque?

Yes. Unless I'm missing something, your reticle didn't move, the whole scope moved in the rings. A reticle moving inside the scope is a failure of the whole scope and needs a return to the manufacturer. That's a whole 'nother issue vs. a scope just slipping in the rings, which you can fix yourself.

 

[demolitionman]

I think my plan of attack would be this:
Loosen the rings, align the reticle with a plumb line at say 25 yards or so. Torque to spec. Tighten the cap screws in an alternatiing fashion to 15 in lbs and try again not sure what rings so i can't advise on what to torque the base of them at..... If you still exhibit problems you'll need to invest in better rings or try lapping the ones you have got. They may not be making full contact. Doesn't look like your reticle moved, your entire scope did.

And those are some excellent groupings!

 

[Whitshot]

Well that escalated quickly....

The scope did NOT twist in the mount. As you can see when the reticle and the top of the mount are level (see reticle pic) the turret (and the axis of the wind age/elevation adjustments) are out of level more than 5 degrees. The scope has to be rotated in the mount (a lot) to get the reticle level with the horizon. Or as you see the neighbors garage floor.

Get it?

I conclude the led sled is the culprit based off of the load of info on the internet claiming as much. Otherwise I have no explanation for how a 6.5 creed managed to rotate the reticle INSIDE the scope 5 degrees in 200 rounds.


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[Whitshot]

Well that escalated quickly....

The scope did NOT twist in the mount. As you can see when the reticle and the top of the mount are level (see reticle pic) the turret (and the axis of the wind age/elevation adjustments) are out of level more than 5 degrees. The scope has to be rotated in the mount (a lot) to get the reticle level with the horizon. Or as you see the neighbors garage floor.

Get it?

I conclude the led sled is the culprit based off of the load of info on the internet claiming as much. Otherwise I have no explanation for how a 6.5 creed managed to rotate the reticle INSIDE the scope 5 degrees in 200 rounds.


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[Whitshot]

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[Whitshot]

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My apologies the reticle pic was supposed to be attached in the 1st post. That would have made my point more clear


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[SRPowah]

I am sorry but are you sure you are using the level correctly? Because I see a lot of light between it and the elevation dial where it is "level". Your whole scope is rotated in relation to the rings, and your very first picture shows it clear as day.

P.S.: Yet I will say the reticle isn't tilted in relation to the turret. I don't know what you managed to do here, but my brain is done for the night. I will let the more knowledgeable come sort this one out.

 

[demolitionman]

Have you leveled your reticle to a plumb line yet? That is what I would do first. Re- level it, then torque to specifications using blue loctite. it is pretty common that turrets are not a good place to level a scope from, as most can be canted easiily. Also take your gun level from your actions scope rail as opposed to the top scope cap, as the top cap's level is influenced by how you torque the screws.

Nothing escalated, just some guys trying to help you get sorted out and shooting straight !

 

[pitdog85]

hey mate I think the guy above me just mentioned this but I found levelling with the turrets for my swfa scope to =FAIL. Depedning on where in the 360 rotation the turret is on mine the level will show either level or completely out of level. This may or may not be your issue just thought id put it out there. I ended up using franks stack of cards under the scope to level it I haven't taken it out to test it yet to see if the reticle is level with a tall target test etc yet but that's what I had to do with my scope as the turrets are no good to level off

 

[Whitshot]

I am sorry but are you sure you are using the level correctly?

"Because I see a lot of light between it and the elevation dial where it is "level".

That's exactly the point. I have a wire wedged under he right side of the level on he turret in order to show y'all in he picture how much it needs to rotate to be even close to level. The scope is loose in the rings. I leveled the reticle (on the garage door) And look through the scope and you'll see that the reticle Is level and plumb. Now observe the turret level. Hence reticle is canted inside the tube.


Sorry this got so confusing. I don't need help. My scope is back at SWFA getting fixed. I just want to warn others that the ledsled may indeed cause scope problems due to the recoil having a greatly reduced recoil absorption distance. "MAYBE"! I don't want to start a fight about it. A friend of mine had the same thing happen to his 6.5 Grendel and leupold..... just beware friends.




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[SRPowah]

The message wasn't conveyed well in that first post at all, so I would copy and paste your last response in the original post. lol But good warning and message to all.

 

[lennyo3034]

Ok, I get it. In the first picture, the reticle is perfectly level, however the turrets are clearly off. I would have helped if he just set the level on the turret instead of holding it to show the gap. In any case, it does not appear to be an issue of the scope twisting in the mount. I've never used a JP mount, but hear they are fairly well regarded.

This is a case of the reticle canting under recoil. It may very well be the lead sled that caused it, especially if its held in tight and weighed down, not allowing it to move under recoil.

Call SWFA and get the scope fixed. Then consider removing some weight from the lead sled.

The good news is: your rifle shoots damn well.

 

[Supersubes]

Totally counterintuitive that the lead sled caused this. By my reckoning, immobilizing the rifle limits the rearward acceleration of the rifle. In other words, less force on the scope, not more. If the rifle was accelerating in the recoil direction and then striking a brick wall, that should not be enough to break a quality scope.

Your scope just took a shit. No manufacturer is immune to that.

 

[Strykervet]

"Twisted the reticle"

No, your whole scope spun in the rings. So was it cheap rings or improper torque?

Yep. I've seen reticles go apeshit, mostly notably in a cheap airgun scope that came on a $20 air rifle back in the 80's. It no shit twisted a full 90degrees!

I use Badger rings and don't have problems --they just make what I need and they're matched, no extra work necessary. I also level the scope to the barrel with a Wilson rig, not the ring or rail. That can be off too, but generally not as much as you show. Not as good as a plumb bob at range, but it gets it on there fairly straight until then.

 

[Strykervet]

Oh, I can see how torsional forces on a sled could twist the scope in the rings --but you are still back to square one, the rings and/or scope diameter.

 

[vh20]

Well that escalated quickly....

The scope did NOT twist in the mount. As you can see when the reticle and the top of the mount are level (see reticle pic)
Get it?

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Well, of course it did, when you show a pic of a scope that clearly IS twisted in the mount while stating that the reticle is what's twisted, and without explaining that you loosened the scope yourself and twisted it like that, and then reference a picture of a reticle that didn't exist at the time. Naturally the folks are going to point out the obvious problem that they see wrong with the pic!

Anyway, now we know. I'm sure SWFA will get it taken care of. One question though (OK, two) - in your first post you said you didn't know it was even twisted until you went to replace the mount. So, the logical question is, are you sure it wasn't twisted from the factory if you didn't know it was twisted until you went to replace the mount? And also, what was the reason for replacing the mount?