LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

[KYpatriot]

Ok, seriously I need to know what the best pepper spray is. My wife is working up to the concealed carry as is ok with long guns but is still not confident enough in the handgun to carry all the time.

So, she wants to replace the pepper spray she has which is expired. I know law enforcement has made a lot of advances with various non-lethals....so all you experts, what should we get?

It will be carried in her purse, so I think a model with a safety is manadatory, but as far as what formulation to use I have no idea. Also, is there some kind of antidote in case she "maces" herself in the process?

 

[Geronimo]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

imo 'The Fox' comes in a black bottle, think it's leo only here.

 

[Geronimo]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

guess you can order it now http://www.defensedevices.com/worhotpepspr.html

 

[kmc0929]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

deftech hands down.

 

[MAGUA]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

Clean fresh water is the best antidote if she "maces" herself.. and don't rub the eyes.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

Fox Labs, 4oz, stream, flip top

Fox is by far the best made OC on the market. Over the years I have been hit by several various brands and Fox made the biggest impression on me. I recommend the 4oz because it fits better in the hand but still small enough to conceal. The 4oz also allows the user several bursts incase of a miss or more than one threat.

As far as self contamination goes.... This can be avoided with training. Fox Labs also has inert training cans. These allow you to practice draw and fire and practice patterns. OC training is no different than firearms training, it should be done with some frequency with a focus on real or potentially real scenarios. In order to decontaminate you can buy some decon wipes called "Bioshield" or use Dawn dish soap to decon skin. The eyes need time, and plenty of fresh water, the lungs need time and fresh air. It sucks but it would be good for her to take a shot so that if it does happen she can already have a mental leg up on the pain and fear.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kmc0929</div><div class="ubbcode-body">deftech hands down. </div></div>

+1

However, I believe we have had a discussion about spray recently. My opinion is that it's application in civilian life is VERY overstated.

Also, please take note of the correction:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, she wants to replace the pepper spray she has which is expired. I know law enforcement has made a lot of advances with various <span style="text-decoration: line-through">non-lethals</span> <span style="color: #FF0000">less-lethal</span>....so all you experts, what should we get? </div></div>

None of the tools used in LE are "Non-Lethal" they can all cause or contribute to death. Thus they are "less-lethal". It may seem like semantics, but much of what occurs in a courtroom is.

 

[Slapchop]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

Sabre work pretty good as well as the DefTec stuff.

The only real antidote is time. Pouring water, milk etc etc only provides a very temporary relief.

 

[KYpatriot]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kmc0929</div><div class="ubbcode-body">deftech hands down. </div></div>

+1

However, I believe we have had a discussion about spray recently. My opinion is that it's application in civilian life is VERY overstated.

Also, please take note of the correction:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, she wants to replace the pepper spray she has which is expired. I know law enforcement has made a lot of advances with various <span style="text-decoration: line-through">non-lethals</span> <span style="color: #FF0000">less-lethal</span>....so all you experts, what should we get? </div></div>

None of the tools used in LE are "Non-Lethal" they can all cause or contribute to death. Thus they are "less-lethal". It may seem like semantics, but much of what occurs in a courtroom is.
</div></div>

Thanks, found the other thread now. Good point on the less-lethal semantics, although the spray will be replaced with a handgun soon. As a civilian, I dont see her deploying the spray in a situation where, were she armed with her handgun, she wouldnt use that instead. You never know though.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

You guys that are advocating Deftech, which label are you using? I do not believe Deftech sells the blue/red label to the public. The blue/red label is what they hang their hat on, though I did not find it to be anything special other than it took longer to decon skin and it stained clothing. The only other Deftech I have been hit was the orange label, it was fine but we had a bunch of issues with range and pressure during training. We have never had an issue with range or pressure with Fox Labs. I think Deftech has their hands in too many things and they fall short on their aerosols.

 

[DeputyDawg]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

Hey guy,
First off I am an Aerosol subject restraint instructor. I would like to address where she carries it first. If it is in her purse under makeup, wallet, check book, more makeup, hairbrush, perfume bottle, etc. I would look for something to carry on exterior of bag. Second, spend money on inert spray to take away fear of it and build muscle memory. This is key. As far as product, I am a fan of sabre products. When picking a spray, major capsinoid content (mcc) is more important than ANY other number. .67% is real good. 1.27% is grizzly bear strength. Sabre red is HOT (1.27). Awesome for use on stopping a threat. I am unaware of your local laws. Ask you AG for information on legality. Then Keep copy of info received. Sabre Red comes in crossfire. Can be used upside down and on angles. Not knowing how to use it can be detrimental. If you want more info feel free to pm me. Good luck.

 

[DeputyDawg]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

Decon with baby shampoo. I spray 24 people at a clip. This is the tool to make it not hurt. Stay away from milk and other homemade recipes. The by the book way is to flush with copious amounts of cool water. I would start Decon with blot an drop. Blot not wipe spray and drop paper towel. Get new paper towel, repeat. Flush eyes and face. Step away from water and strobe eyes. OPEN but blink rapidly. Then look into a slow spinning fan. Do not keep going to water. Only makes drags it on. Be careful of shower later on. Do not bend head forward and avoid letting that contaminated water get on your privates. Once again. If you need info, pm

 

[hoosierswat]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

Def-Tec is a very solid product. Galls sells it to non-leo. The key to remeber with pepper spray is it's not fool proof. A very determine person can fight through pepper spray/oc spray. It will however affect their sight but that can take a couple of seconds. It's very important to move after spraying someone, change your position and retreat if your a female using it for self defense. I'm a oc instructor and it affects everyone differently.

http://www.galls.com/style-SD090-general_catalog-first-defense-mk3--fast-acting-foam

 

[Sportin Wood]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, is there some kind of antidote in case she "maces" herself in the process? </div></div>

Sorry, but this made me laugh!!! lol

 

[Geronimo]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

fwiw ohio is the only state that all prisons meet federal standards, fox labs is 2% oc spray which equals 35% capacineoids sp? lol

 

[khall540]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

I was sprayed with Fox for work purposes and carried it at my first LE job which was only part time. When I was hired full time at another agency I brought my Fox with me and the officer here who was a DAAT instructor gave me a bottle of Sabre because he said Fox was too strong!

 

[khall540]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

Did I mention I would take a 5 second Tazer ride anyday over being pepper sprayed agian?

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: khall540</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did I mention I would take a 5 second Tazer ride anyday over being pepper sprayed agian?</div></div>

Same here but in a head to head fight I would rather fight someone with OC rather than a Taser. I can fight through and protect myself from OC, Taser not so much.

 

[topgun99]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

+1 on fox. I have also found that the galls brand is just as effective, less expensive and available to the general public. Stay away from the foam...found to be less effective. They are working on a gel version thats supposed to be very effective with less cross contamination. The main point is to slow or incapacitate long enough to escape. Any of these should do the trick.

 

[KYpatriot]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

Thanks for everyone's replies...ordered some FOX in the keychain size so that it is more likely to be in her hand rather than the purse while walking to the car.

 

[Insayn]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

I scanned over the other posts, but did you get a fogger or stream? Foggers can incapacitate the user as well as the suspect in unfavorable environmental conditions or where there is an inability to retreat/flee. It also is more forgiving on aim. A stream is more direct however, doesn't affect the user as badly. In my opinion, dependent on size, the keychain canisters are sometimes too small to release an effective amount.

Upon receiving the spray I would subject your wife to a dose. Maybe not directly, but a small amount of area saturation near her so she understands and experiences its effect and is aware of what may happen to her if utilized.

We use to use Punch II M-4 foggers and moved to Sabre Red fogger. I have used the Punch quite a bit and attest to its effectiveness. I've only used the Sabre twice since we transitioned years ago with the introduction of the Taser X26. Once on a pair of guard dogs that got out of a tow yard and were trying to bite my car. The Sabre evacuated very quickly. In the short burst about 1/2 the can evacuated with a higher pressure release than the old Punch II's we used.

 

[Michael]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

Sent my wife to an OC class twice. She carries Sabre and has used it 3X, 2X on me ( class crash test dummy, and I'll second the baby shampoo ) and 1x on a pit bull that came over a fence at her. Without some quality instruction the outcome would not have been favorable.

 

[RoosterShooter]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, is there some kind of antidote in case she "maces" herself in the process? </div></div>

I laughed at this comment as well.

All joking aside ..... she should probably go with Pepperball Technologies. http://www.pepperball.com/

I have seen a lot of first hand non-lethal applications that are great with their 'Hot Shot' and Pepperball Gun uses.

As for a remedy ...... a gallon of water is always handy to have. I've also used a gallon of 2% or whole milk that worked wonders. Something in the milk neutralized the captins in the pepper.

 

[KYS]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

We have used and been hit with the Kimber Life Alert gel. Its easy to aim, and you can accurately cover someones face with it.

We saw a young fella get hit with it from about 14 yards and he said it hit him like a straight right from a boxer. It comes out at 90mph and it burns for awhile. If you rub it, it gets worse as you are working it into your skin.

 

[KYpatriot]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

The one I ordered was the fox keychain model. Based on the suggestions I'll look for a class or buy the training model as well.

 

[Blue Line]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

KY,
Check with your local Police Department/Sheriff's Dept. and see if they offer a O.C. spray class for females. I'm currently running a refresher for our department and its amazing that my officers still think O.C. works instantly. The choice of the spray is only one component and she also needs to know how and when to deploy it, what to do after its deployed, and how to gage its effectiveness. Also important to note that nothing is 100% and O.C. is effective on 95% of the population. If there is anything I can help with send me a PM.
Chris

 

[khall540]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

Cowboy Bravo, I totally agree with your comment about fighting someone with OC over Tazer. I'm just saying for me personally I would take the 5 second tazer hit again, and walk away from it immediatley once it is over instead of getting sprayed again and feeling the effects hours afterwards.

 

[Insayn]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

We just tested a Taser unit similar to the Shockwave that had 20-30 cartridges IIRC. They can be fired simultaneously or in banks of 5 or 6. More for area denial and I believe it is a longer ride than the X26's 5 seconds. We have a pair of the X12 shotgun Tasers but haven't had luck with them so far, but I like the fact it the cartridge has a 20 second ride. Of the times we've deployed them the suspect's clothing was too thick for the drop down probe.

 

[dmg308]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

A very good but lesser known product is

http://www.guardpd.com/

I know the owner and he is very serious about his products.It really sucks getting a shot of it.

 

[GotM118LR]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: khall540</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did I mention I would take a 5 second Tazer ride anyday over being pepper sprayed agian? </div></div>

Yep! Pepper spray = the gift that keeps on givin'

Freeze+P sucks pretty bad.

 

[UWone77]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

One thing to remember on a taser vs. pepper spray... if you miss with the taser, you're screwed unless you decide to get up close and personal.

 

[Bravo 1]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

+1 on Fox.

Yes it's strong but it works.

 

[Mr Silverman]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

I agree about Fox not from personal experience but from MP's suggestions. We were pepper sprayed working at Camp Bucca, IZ and that was an emotional event for all involved... something about being pepper sprayed during a sandstorm and 150 degree heat really sucks. However every MP that I spoke to regarding pepper spray say that stuff failed to compare to fox.

 

[Lefty06]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: khall540</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did I mention I would take a 5 second Tazer ride anyday over being pepper sprayed agian? </div></div>



+1

 

[Bravo 1]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

lefty06,

Agree with you but after the shock you shake like what the F&*K just happened but after the spray it burns and burns and burns and ....

did I mention it burns- LOL

 

[kentactic]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

also the purse isnt the best place to keep her only defensive tool. a purse snatcher rips her purse away and now shes got nothing. and DEFFINATLY dont continue this trend once she gets her Permit for concealed carry..then shell being arming that purse snatcher with a firearm. just something to think about.

 

[Lefty06]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bravo 1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lefty06,

Agree with you but after the shock you shake like what the F&*K just happened but after the spray it burns and burns and burns and ....

did I mention it burns- LOL </div></div>

Yep OC is the gift that keeps on giving, but I'd rather experience the busness end of the Taser any day over the burning of the OC.

If it were my wife I'd get her some good OC the Taser is a good tool but OC would work better for her.

 

[tpr564]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

The best rape whistle is a .357 Magnum.

 

[Foul Mike]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

This OC stuff interests me also, however I was thinking about spraying bears instead of bad guys.
In Colorado there are lots of bears for some reason and they will get somewhat aggressive.
While camping I have had a couple of visits.
Good camping practices such as not putting any food refuse etc. are sometimes not enough.
My Old Lady bought a big spray bottle that is like a small fire extinguisher but that is not too practical if you are just out on a walk.
I need something that I can carry easily and go for the next one if necessary.
IF time permits, I would shoot the SOB but do realize that the rounds from a handgun are just going to give DOW a finding of,"This A-hole shot the bear a bunch of times before he was killed and eaten." and find a bear with a full stomach of me somewhere nearby.
I would welcome your ideas.
Regards, FM

 

[k9ghost]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

we use deftec and i have hands on or should i say in the eye experience with it. got sprayed by a co-worker, not cool.

k9g

 

[a_bishop]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tpr564</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best rape whistle is a .357 Magnum. </div></div>
haha thats classic

 

[DeputyDawg]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

I don't know many agencies that still use def tec. NYS corrections, Rikers, California Docs, use sabre. I am 100% on first two and 95 on Cali. Please correct me if I am wron on Cali. They use it at Rikers because it works. They and a ton of bad guys and that's there choice. How many people just are giving props to what their dept issued? Def Tec SUCKS. Fox sucks. Punch is hot ad shit and is pretty consistent can to can. That's something that def tec does not tell you. They don't test batches. Sabre is the only product that tests batches for can to can consistency. Later

 

[John M]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tpr564</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best rape whistle is a .357 Magnum. </div></div>

HaHa!!! I bet it burns just a touch, too. The good news for the bad guy is it won't hurt long.

Of course if you get him between the running lights, it won't burn at all.

 

[onechance]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

Wasp spray, yeah I know, what? Blinds the bad guy instantly and burns. I know the cans can be quite large, but some companies sell smaller ones. you can hit your target 15-20 ft. away.

I've been sprayed with several of the above mentioned including being tazed. I was still able to subdue a mock attacker. Now the tazing on the other hand, worked until I pulled a lead out and it was on.

I have several friends that are physicans, they've mentioned that, The "Meth Heads" are using the Wasp spray like pepper spray. They also mentioned that it will take the strongest, highest "Meth Head" down in seconds.

I like the .357 idea, but I believe Freeze + sucked the most as far as sprays go. Getting tazed on a scale of 1-10, rated SUCKED!!

 

[Foul Mike]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

I do appreciate your comments.
I do think you have something there with the wasp spray.
I have sprayed wasps in my quonset type graineries with much success.

They fall dead as a wedge and the spray goes out there quite a ways.
Easy to get and effective.
I think John Deere has them on hand for their mechanics that go to the field.
Small, but very effective.
Thank you for your thoughts.
You damn sure want something that will spray for at least 3 yards or you are lunch.
When they are that close I am wondering if I should not shoot, but when they are in areas that they have frequented before, I would not feel right about shooting them unless they were a threat.
Wasp spray,,??? Damn good Idea and readily available.
Thanks, FM

 

[Chilo]

Re: LEOs - need help with Pepper Spray...dont laugh...

Wasp spray is a type of poison that can be lethal to people. Just be aware it may be more damaging than pepper spray in certain situations. It is a poison, not just an irritant. Use whatever tool necessary to stop the threat. But be aware of what the potential of that tool is.

Stay safe