Let’s talk LPVO and SFP vs. FFP...

[SilentStalkr]

Which do you prefer and why? Everyone seems to want FFP in an LPVO even in a 1-6 and I am completely baffled by this. Is this just mall ninjas without any experience spewing some crap they read in the latest edition of recoil or what? The reason I’m bringing this up is because this is a continual conversation among people I know and a continual argument. Both SFP and FFP have their pros and cons, I just cannot see what FFP really gains you in an optic on an AR. Yes I full well know the benefits of an FFP but are you really taking pop shots at something 600 yds away with an AR? And imo, FFP at 1-2x is virtually not even usable as the reticle is so small you cannot hardly see it and if you zero your rifle properly you don’t really need to worry about holdovers to like 350yds, pretty much point and shoot. So what gives here? Why all the fuss for FFP on a LPVO? Now maybe with a 1-10 or one day even higher I could see it but I don’t know I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around the need for ffp on an LPVO. Now for our long range pursuits, absolutely FFP all the way. Someone explain this madness.

 

[Hondo64d]

If the reticle is properly designed, a FFP LPVO is no problem, and actually my preference. SWFA got it right with their 1-6 HD.

John

6x

1x

 

[6.5SH]

Try shooting a PRS'ish format gas gun match that is 200-750ish yard ranges in terrain. Initially you'll get lost in the scope until you learn what landmarks there really are and can find stuff.

Sure a pro level shooter who has been at that range for a year or more or has eagle eyes will be able to leave their scope on 25x and make it work. That isn't most people.

I use a 1-8x that is unfortunately SFP. I make it work but yes it is a handicap. Not everyone wants a 16-20-25-30x scope on an AR

Another factor for some is that at 1x and with an illuminated reticle they basically have an RDS. Not the game I play, but important for some.

 

[6.5SH]

If the reticle is properly designed, a FFP LPVO is no problem, and actually my preference. SWFA got it right with their 1-6 HD.

John

Too bad they didn't make the bottom tree longer, it would be perfect. They went for low light/short range speed with the overall design. But still one of the better ones I've seen.

 

[cake5150]

For me, it is FFP for everything except LPVOs. A reticle that is super tiny on 1x and only really fast if brightly illuminated does not interest me in the slightest. I would be slightly more interested if the battery life on LPVOs was equivalent to an Aimpoint, but it most certainly is not. I really like my SFP 1-6 and 1-8 optics since they give a nice, large, eye-catching reticle at 1x whether or not the illumination is on. If I am shooting at distance, I've got it maxed and want it that way. The in-between magnification values aren't completely useless since you would usually be using them within a couple hundred yards where the point-blank aiming point is still typically good enough. Again, I'm a FFP lover, just not on LPVOs. YMMV.

 

[db2000]

Seems like it depends on the reticle purpose. I prefer FFP because at 8x I want to be able to shoot hold over. The ACSS Griffin is an excellent reticle IMO. It’s very fast to acquire on 1x, illuminated or not and the tree is great for reaching out there accurately with some wind.

 

[dgheriani]

I think SFP is fine for 1-4 or 6x maybe but in a 1-8x and above, I like FFP. SFP maybe if only ever shooting full-size targets. I dunno what caliber/ammo the OP is shooting that he can zero so he holds dead on from 0-350 and hit anything other than a full-size IPSC.

I run a Bushnell SMRS 1-8 on my carbine and quite like it. The reticle is a donut at 1x and plenty fast and holdovers from 6-8x are great. I don't max out the magnification for intermediate ranges (inside 400) unless shooting small targets. From 100-400 I'll usually be on 3-5x to keep the field of view nice and big.

 

[rlsmith1]

Totally agree (and prefer SFP for the current options); there was another thread I asked this question about halfway through and the consensus was that it's nice as the mag range gets higher. I agree it's much harder to make a reticle that is useable at both extremes (where it will spend most of the time anyway). Interestingly, the crowd on that thread indicated what they really wanted a 3-18 or 2.5-15 compact scope (32mm or 40mm objective) and run a red dot offset to that. I was more pointing out the uselessness of a red dot on a LPVO when I asked that question.

For me, the more simple the SFP on a 1-8, the better. I can easily do a half hold at 4x and be on the money in the 300-500 yd range. Heck, even an error in magnification wouldn't be detrimental on targets bigger than a prairie dog out to 350 or so. I'd have to run the numbers to back that statement up but I suspect a 3.5x and 4.5x hold would be pretty similar to a 4x hold at those ranges.

Past the 400 yd mark, crank to 8x and holdover or even dial. The Brownells MPO 1-8 checks a ton of these boxes for me so I'm excited to try it out. I just haven't seen many reticles in the FFP 1-8/10 scopes that I like. Everyone has their preferences, and I hate the reticles like the SWFA posted above. I'm sure it works great for some but not my preference at all. My opinion is people think they need Christmas tree type reticles more often than they actually do. Once you get past the 500 yd mark, yes windage starts to be more sensitive but until then, favor the edge of the target and shoot.

Your statement about the 600 yard shots with an AR is true as well. At some point, we are limited by the 223 / 556 not the rest of the equipment. We can talk hypothetical target PID all we want, but if that's important, you probably don't need the true 1x either.

I think the future is the 2.5-15/3-18 compact scope that is light (low 20 oz), has a great reticle and is tough as nails. Might as well ask for it to be affordable while we are dreaming haha.

One more thing, the hunter / shooter usually has similar needs to the mil guys but us shooters typically have much more defined needs than the warfighter. I do believe each American citizen should be proficient to defend our liberties against enemies foreign and domestic so having the most capability is important to me even if it's not my job today.

 

[SilentStalkr]

I think SFP is fine for 1-4 or 6x maybe but in a 1-8x and above, I like FFP. SFP maybe if only ever shooting full-size targets. I dunno what caliber/ammo the OP is shooting that he can zero so he holds dead on from 0-350 and hit anything other than a full-size IPSC.

I run a Bushnell SMRS 1-8 on my carbine and quite like it. The reticle is a donut at 1x and plenty fast and holdovers from 6-8x are great. I don't max out the magnification for intermediate ranges (inside 400) unless shooting small targets. From 100-400 I'll usually be on 3-5x to keep the field of view nice and big.

Yes, im talking two legged size targets. This won’t be for shooting groups.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Which do you prefer and why? Everyone seems to want FFP in an LPVO even in a 1-6 and I am completely baffled by this. Is this just mall ninjas without any experience spewing some crap they read in the latest edition of recoil or what? The reason I’m bringing this up is because this is a continual conversation among people I know and a continual argument. Both SFP and FFP have their pros and cons, I just cannot

I feel like I'm experienced, been running an AR since 1983, and run a Vortex Razor 1-4 and Bushnell SMRS 1-8X FFP on my AR's. I don't see the issue and I do all kind of different shooting with my AR, including 3-Gun where I typically place in the top 20% of the match.

That being said, where exactly are you seeing the issues? Shooting at 21 feet?

 

[SilentStalkr]

I feel like I'm experienced, been running an AR since 1983, and run a Vortex Razor 1-4 and Bushnell SMRS 1-8X FFP on my AR's. I don't see the issue and I do all kind of different shooting with my AR, including 3-Gun where I typically place in the top 20% of the match.

That being said, where exactly are you seeing the issues? Shooting at 21 feet?

Seems most reticles are completely useless on an ffp from
1-3x depending on scope and reticle. It’s too small to see at those mags for me to be of any use. I didn’t even know Vortex made a first focal plane 1-4.

 

[Halberdier]

The circle dot reticle at 1x is what makes the LPVO useful for me. It makes for instant target acquisition with both eyes open. The only LPVOs I've seen with a full size circle dot reticle are all SFP. Until that changes, that's the only setup I want.

 

[Hondo64d]

SWFA 1-6 HD

 

[Zane1844]

I’ve used the MK6 1-6, and now the Razor Gen3. Both I can use easily without illumination at 1x. I’m not shooting for time, or at people though, strictly LARPing and having fun.

I prefer the FFP 1x on the Gen3 over the 1x on the Gen 2 Razor. It’s simply better, for me.

Yes the reticle is almost useless at 1-3x for holds, but I wouldn’t use the SFP reticle at the mag range either.

 

[Rob01]

I like SFP in a 1-6x but in a 1-10x I like FFP better. Reason being is that if I am shooting far enough to use holds I am on 6x anyways with my 1-6x but with the 1-10x having more versatility above 6x and may be on 7, 8 or 9 power then having the FFP and being able to use the reticle holds is a plus.

 

[MK20]

If the reticle is designed properly for either then either FFP or SFP can be used well.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

I believe everyone should switch from the Vortex Razor 1-6 SFP to the Razor 1-10 FFP. Just make sure you price your 1-6 at the right price point so, I can get a couple of them

 

[SilentStalkr]

I’ve used the MK6 1-6, and now the Razor Gen3. Both I can use easily without illumination at 1x. I’m not shooting for time, or at people though, strictly LARPing and having fun.

I prefer the FFP 1x on the Gen3 over the 1x on the Gen 2 Razor. It’s simply better, for me.

Yes the reticle is almost useless at 1-3x for holds, but I wouldn’t use the SFP reticle at the mag range either.

My issue isn’t for holding. As I said earlier on, zero for 36 yds and your good to point and shoot life size objects out to roughly 350yds. No need really for holds. My issue is on every FFP LPVO I’ve ever seen is that the reticle is completely pointless as in nonexistent at 1-3x, as in no reference point. I’d you have an illuminated dot you at least have that but if it’s a shitty one that ain’t going to help you much. At least on a SFP the reticle is visible at 1-6x and believe me I’m not really a fan of SFP at all. But on a LPVO SFP scope, I’m just using the reticle as a reference point to point and shoot. I’m not holding anything over from 36-350 yds really. My particular use here is not for small groups or shooting with it out to 850 yds like some not you seem to be trying to do lol. If I’m shooting those kinds of distances an AR is not going to be my first choice. If it’s my only choice then we’ll that’s different but...

 

[MarshallDodge]

My issue isn’t for holding. As I said earlier on, zero for 36 yds and your good to point and shoot life size objects out to roughly 350yds. No need really for holds. My issue is on every FFP LPVO I’ve ever seen is that the reticle is completely pointless as in nonexistent at 1-3x, as in no reference point. I’d you have an illuminated dot you at least have that but if it’s a shitty one that ain’t going to help you much. At least on a SFP the reticle is visible at 1-6x and believe me I’m not really a fan of SFP at all. But on a LPVO SFP scope, I’m just using the reticle as a reference point to point and shoot. I’m not holding anything over from 36-350 yds really. My particular use here is not for small groups or shooting with it out to 850 yds like some not you seem to be trying to do lol. If I’m shooting those kinds of distances an AR is not going to be my first choice. If it’s my only choice then we’ll that’s different but...

You have obviously caught on to a couple of recent fads, including the 36 yard zero. Another fad has been daylight visible illumination and FFP vs SFP.

No judgment from me, do what you think is necessary for you.

All of us have different applications and needs. Recently, after one of my cats went missing, I was out spotting a coyote at 410 yards with the 1-8X scope, and a few weeks before that I was engaging a steel silhouette at 1000. Different applications require different hardware.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Errrraythang in FFP. Its the only way to live.

Get on the team and come in for the big win.

 

[SilentStalkr]

You have obviously caught on to a couple of recent fads, including the 36 yard zero. Another fad has been daylight visible illumination and FFP vs SFP.

No judgment from me, do what you think is necessary for you.

All of us have different applications and needs. Recently, after one of my cats went missing, I was out spotting a coyote at 410 yards with the 1-8X scope, and a few weeks before that I was engaging a steel silhouette at 1000. Different applications require different hardware.

Um, I wouldn’t call any of that fads. FFP vs SFP has been a thing like for a long time. And the 36 yard zero is most certainly not a fad. I do agree tho that different applications most certainly require different hardware. That’s why I stated this ain’t about hitting coyotes at 410 yds or shooting steel at 1000. This is strictly for the two legged type critters. I could argue that there are better options than an LPVO for this but that depends. I have different rifles set up for different things. In this case, I’m simply discussing FFP vs SFP for LPVOs on a gun that’s only going to be used for two legged critters. That’s it. I will never use this particular rifle for anything else. For what is worth ive used both ffp and SFP LPVOs and from my experience the FFP is completely useless from 1-3x. Now for longer distance shooting where I’m going to crank the mag up and use holdovers, absolutely FFP. For a just zero, point and shoot at a big target kind of deal, SFP until I find a scope/reticle combo in FFP that I feel is worthwhile at low mag. So far, I have t found a good one. And like I said, for most purposes, I really hate SFP. But on a LPVO, it seems to be the only option that works at low mag, at least for me as the reticle is so tiny it might as well not be there. Now on a reticle where there is a bigger doughnut or a horseshoe on FFP that can kind of work for dual purposes then sure, but I haven’t seen one yet that really works for me. That’s all I’m saying. I also have ARs zeroed at 50 and 100yds. Different rifles, different uses.

 

[6.5SH]

Errrraythang in FFP. Its the only way to live.

Get on the team and come in for the big win.

Why does it say "Born to holdover" on your helmet and you have a turret pin or your flak jacket?

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Why does it say "Born to holdover" on your helmet and you have a turret pin or your flak jacket?

Actually carried a shortdot 1.1-4 in combat getting blown up in iraq. Even 15 years ago as a young dumb soldier was smart enough to go with FFP.....and im still alive to talk about it.

 

[SilentStalkr]

Actually carried a shortdot 1.1-4 in combat getting blown up in iraq. Even 15 years ago as a young dumb soldier was smart enough to go with FFP.....and im still alive to talk about it.

Eewww! MOA! Lmao! The old short dot.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Eewww! MOA! Lmao! The old short dot.

Had m885 bdc turret so didnt matter, but everything was moa back then.

 

[SilentStalkr]

Had m885 bdc turret so didnt matter, but everything was moa back then.

Word.

 

[KYAggie]

I agree, a FFP LPVO on an AR15 in 5.56, to me, doesn’t really make sense as I view that as a 300 yards and less weapon. On a AR10 in 308 or 6.5 or a AR15 in 6.5 Grendel or 224 Valkyrie a FFP LPVO might make sense. I have a first gen Vortex 1-4 SFP on a 5.56 and it works great. I have a FFP SWFA 1-6 on a light weight, 6# unloaded with no optic, AR10 308 and I really love that SWFA FFP reticle; easily takes the gun from point blank to 600 yards which is perfect.

Match the scope to the round, the effective distance, and the mission.

 

[Fret]

I like both my SFP Razor Gen2E 1-6X and Burris FFP 1-8X. Tried to take a couple photos of the Burris at 1X and 8X but had a hard time with the camera so they came out a bit blurry.

 

[SilentStalkr]

I like both my SFP Razor Gen2E 1-6X and Burris FFP 1-8X. Tried to take a couple photos of the Burris at 1X and 8X but had a hard time with the camera so they came out a bit blurry.

Pics look fine. They get the point across. And see that’s what we are talking about. That reticle actually works because you have a doughnut for reference at 1x and then obviously you see the details of the reticle and center dot at 8x like it should be. There seems to be scopes out there that have a simple dot and a busy reticle that, at 1x, is basically not even there. So as someone mentioned, the deciding factor seems to not be on SFP or FFP but rather the reticle design and whether or not it’s best designed for FFP or SFP.

 

[Hondo64d]

Pics look fine. They get the point across. And see that’s what we are talking about. That reticle actually works because you have a doughnut for reference at 1x and then obviously you see the details of the reticle and center dot at 8x like it should be. There seems to be scopes out there that have a simple dot and a busy reticle that, at 1x, is basically not even there. So as someone mentioned, the deciding factor seems to not be on SFP or FFP but rather the reticle design and whether or not it’s best designed for FFP or SFP.

Very similar to the SWFA 1-6HD. Very usable FFP reticle.

John

 

[SilentStalkr]

Ok, so let’s make a list of FFP LPVOs that have usable reticles at 1-3x.

 

[Boon20]

Ok stupid question here, why does it matter if you can see the reticle on 1x in ffp? Shouldn't that be in the point and shoot area.

 

[SilentStalkr]

Ok stupid question here, why does it matter if you can see the reticle on 1x in ffp? Shouldn't that be in the point and shoot area.

Assuming this is a serious question, because most people like to have a reference point. The argument could be made sure. Shoulder rifle somewhat center target in window and pull trigger. It’s going to hit somewhere. I don’t like shooting blindly. But, if we are going to make that argument then why have any sight system at all inside of 100yds? Most people prefer to have some reference whether it be iron sights, a red dot, whatever. I mean if we are talking 5’ away here then no it’s not going to matter but if we talking 75 yds, 125 yds whatever then people are going to want a reference point and I’m not going to have a ffp cranked up to 8x at 100yds to hit a man sized target.

 

[Boon20]

I mean by point shoot that its basicly a red dot. Put the dot on and shoot inside 1-200 ish. Me fail english so bad discription on my part.

 

[SilentStalkr]

I mean by point shoot that its basicly a red dot. Put the dot on and shoot inside 1-200 ish. Me fail english so bad discription on my part.

Problem with that is, many of them the dot is so small and faint you won’t pick that up either. If it’s a visible dot like a red dot then yes, absolutely. Again, seems largely to depend on reticle design.

 

[YammyMonkey]

Part of what I like about the Kahles SFP LPVOs is that if the illumination fails, battery dies, I forget to turn it on, whatever, I still have a perfectly useable reticle throughout the range. I'm not doing any extended rangefinding with the reticle because, within my application, I don't have a need to. If I need to go to an extended range I'll grab my sniper rig instead.

 

[Burdy]

I came in here to see if @CrabsandFootball would blow up the thread and get suspended over this topic. I am highly disappointed.

 

[SilentStalkr]

Had m885 bdc turret so didnt matter, but everything was moa back then.

I think it’s safe to say we have learned, evolved and adapted a good deal since then also. I’m not saying that that diminishes anything but I’d say optics have improved greatly in the last 20 years. MOA or MIL or FFP or SFP, doesn’t matter, we have improved, even tho a short dot is still a heck of a scope. I’m speaking more overall than to any one specific thing.

 

[hypno02]

There’s a ton of terrible info in this thread. A lpvo needs to have a daylight bright (not just daylight visible [swfa 1-6] reticle. Razor, P4xi, Nx8, mk6, atacr, etc)

A “useable” 1x non illuminated reticle is a secondary need in today’s world. Especially with how easy and cheap it is to mount offset rds’s. Here’s how I rank 1x black for reticles I have experience with.
1. Vudu
2. Mk6
3. Nx8/atacr
4. Gen3 razor
5. H27 mk8

 

[Burdy]

There’s a ton of terrible info in this thread. A lpvo needs to have a daylight bright (not just daylight visible [swfa 1-6] reticle. Razor, P4xi, Nx8, mk6, atacr, etc)

A “useable” 1x non illuminated reticle is a secondary need in today’s world. Especially with how easy and cheap it is to mount offset rds’s. Here’s how I rank 1x black for reticles I have experience with.
1. Vudu
2. Mk6
3. Nx8/atacr
4. Gen3 razor
5. H27 mk8

If you are going with the offset (piggyback is better IMO, but Ill bite) RDS argument then you don't even need an LPVO, you would be better served with something like a march 1.5-15 or a 2.5-10. I use both, and I find myself almost never using the LPVO at 1x anymore. I leave it on about 2.5 to 3x and move to 8x if I need holdovers (SFP), otherwise all close range work get the MRDS.
Vudu 1-6 would be number one my list as well as far as non-illuminated FFP reticle for 1x usage.

 

[Burdy]

Which do you prefer and why? Everyone seems to want FFP in an LPVO even in a 1-6 and I am completely baffled by this. Is this just mall ninjas without any experience spewing some crap they read in the latest edition of recoil or what? The reason I’m bringing this up is because this is a continual conversation among people I know and a continual argument. Both SFP and FFP have their pros and cons, I just cannot see what FFP really gains you in an optic on an AR. Yes I full well know the benefits of an FFP but are you really taking pop shots at something 600 yds away with an AR? And imo, FFP at 1-2x is virtually not even usable as the reticle is so small you cannot hardly see it and if you zero your rifle properly you don’t really need to worry about holdovers to like 350yds, pretty much point and shoot. So what gives here? Why all the fuss for FFP on a LPVO? Now maybe with a 1-10 or one day even higher I could see it but I don’t know I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around the need for ffp on an LPVO. Now for our long range pursuits, absolutely FFP all the way. Someone explain this madness.

Because. LPVO's are used in dynamic high-stress situations in which multiple targets, often moving are engaged. If you need to engage various targets at 300-600 yards, quickly, while maintaining a FOV that encompasses all targets, you might not want your LPVO on 8x. 5x might prove to be much quicker. Well, now your holdovers are wrong if you are running SFP. So you have to go 8x and not see the other targets, or you have to dial your dope. Neither of those are as fast as engaging your holdovers at 5x. If you use an LPVO in a dynamic high-stress scenario, you will appreciate FFP. Currently, there is no perfect LPVO out there, so sacrifices must be made. There is also a high chance if you are stressed that you forget or don't realize you are not at max magnification, I have done it, had a bad day and not realized what the problem was until the drive home. It sucks.

FFP makes things more simple, and simple is better. With that being said there is no FFP LPVO that has the 1x view of a KAHLES K16 or K18, so you have to decide what is most important to you and where the majority of your engagements are going to take place. If you are also going to run a mini red dot, I would say the reason for coupling it with a FFP optic just got much stronger. If you rarely get past 300, where you can just hold center dot on most anything torso sized, I would say you would appreciate the better view that some of the SFP optics will provide. The most ideal setup in my opinion would be a mini red dot atop a lightweight FFP 2.5-10 or 3-12 or something like that if they could get them down to around 20 ounces or less. If I am just running one optic, choosing between SFP and FPP would be based entirely upon where I predicted the majority of my engagements to occur given the tradeoff between the two at this moment in time.

 

[SilentStalkr]

Because. LPVO's are used in dynamic high-stress situations in which multiple targets, often moving are engaged. If you need to engage various targets at 300-600 yards, quickly, while maintaining a FOV that encompasses all targets, you might not want your LPVO on 8x. 5x might prove to be much quicker. Well, now your holdovers are wrong if you are running SFP. So you have to go 8x and not see the other targets, or you have to dial your dope. Neither of those are as fast as engaging your holdovers at 5x. If you use an LPVO in a dynamic high-stress scenario, you will appreciate FFP. Currently, there is no perfect LPVO out there, so sacrifices must be made. There is also a high chance if you are stressed that you forget or don't realize you are not at max magnification, I have done it, had a bad day and not realized what the problem was until the drive home. It sucks. FFP makes things more simple, and simple is better. With that being said there is no FFP LPVO that has the 1x view of a KAHLES K16 or K18, so you have to decide what is most important to you and where the majority of your engagements are going to take place. If you are also going to run a mini red dot, I would say the reason for coupling it with a FFP optic just got much stronger. If you rarely get past 300, where you can just hold center dot on most anything torso sized, I would say you would appreciate the better view that some of the SFP optics will provide. The most ideal setup in my opinion would be a mini red dot atop a lightweight FFP 2.5-10 or 3-12 or something like that if they could get them down to around 20 ounces or less. If I am just running one optic, choosing between SFP and FPP would be based entirely upon where I predicted the majority of my engagements to occur given the tradeoff between the two at this moment in time.

I totally get all this but you guys are missing my point. Im never ever going to be engaging targets at 600 yds with this rifle and never ever see myself in that situation these days, but if I am and I have a choice, I’m not grabbing my AR to engage anyone at 600 yds. And I literally can set up my rifle to point and shoot with either a FFP or SFP at anything 300 yds and in. There is no need for holdovers. But, I would like to be able to have a reference aiming point and in that case a SFP or an FFP with usable reticle is preferred. In a high stress engagement I’m not going to be screwing with dialing or holdovers, that’s what the reticle is for, especially if you have an FFP. But set up right you won’t need to dial or hold anything, literally put the dot on and pull the trigger. This is like these guys that have a freaking 6mm pushing 3200fps zeroed at 100 yds and are literally dialing or holding over at 200 yds. Here is a hint, don’t waste your time. Place dot or center of reticle on target and pull the trigger. No need to holdover or dial here but people do it. Shit you can go out even farther than that if you want, depending on target size. Just aim at the top of target if you want to be quick, if FFP and you want to actually get precise hold over 1 mil. What I’m saying is people think about this way too much. It’s not all that necessary at close distances with certain weapon and ammo systems, so to speak.

 

[Burdy]

I totally get all this but you guys are missing my point. Im never ever going to be engaging targets at 600 yds with this rifle and never ever see myself in that situation, but if I am and I have a choice, I’m not grabbing my AR to engage anyone at 600 yds. And I literally can set up my rifle to point and shoot with either a FFP or SFP at anything 300 yds and in. There is no need for holdovers. But, I would like to be able to have a reference aiming point and in that case a SFP or an FFP with usable reticle is preferred. In a high stress engagement I’m not going to be screwing with dialing or holdovers, that’s what the reticle is for, especially if you have an FFP. But set up right you won’t need to dial or hold anything, literally put the dot on and pull the trigger. This is like these guys that have a freaking 6mm pushing 3200fps zeroed at 100 yds and are literally dialing or holding over at 200 yds. Here is a hint, don’t waste your time. Place dot or center of reticle on target and pull the trigger. No need to holdover or dial here but people do it. Shit you can go out even farther than that if you want, depending on target size. Just aim at the top of target if you want to be quick, if FFP and you want to actually get precise hold over 1 mil. What I’m saying is people think about this way too much. It’s not all that necessary at close distances with certain weapon and ammo systems, so to speak.

If 300 yards is your max, you don't even need a LPVO. Just get an EOTech or a Red Dot. You are selling your carbine short. I have a 13.7" and routinely, and easily make 600 yard hits from various supported and unsupported positions in competition, all while being exhausted and under a timer. It has no problem at 800 yards (k16i) supported and I have had it to 1,000 (k18i) three times during range days. The weapon is far more capable than most give it credit for. If I have to hit minute of man at any of those distances under stress or while someone is shooting back, I would grab my maneuverable, lightweight, faster carbine over my precision rig all day and just keep sending it.

 

[SilentStalkr]

If 300 yards is your max, you don't even need a LPVO. Just get an EOTech or a Red Dot. You are selling your carbine short. I have a 13.7" and routinely, and easily make 600 yard hits from various supported and unsupported positions in competition, all while being exhausted and under a timer. It has no problem at 800 yards (k16i) supported and I have had it to 1,000 (k18i) three times during range days. The weapon is far more capable than most give it credit for. If I have to hit minute of man at any of those distances under stress or while someone is shooting back, I would grab my maneuverable, lightweight, faster carbine over my precision rig all day.

I’m not by any means saying you can’t. I know you can, trust me. I’m just saying I’m not ever going to be doing that these days. With that said, my eyes ain’t what there were in my 20s!

 

[Burdy]

I’m not by any means saying you can’t. I know you can, trust me. I’m just saying I’m not ever going to be doing that these days. With that said, my eyes ain’t what there were in my 20s!

Mine are getting worse too. 43 y/o here and its one of the reasons LPVOs have become more of a staple for me vs other options. Adjustable diopter and etched glass reticles just looks much better than what my astigmatism sees on electronic optics.

 

[hypno02]

If you are going with the offset (piggyback is better IMO, but Ill bite) RDS argument then you don't even need an LPVO, you would be better served with something like a march 1.5-15 or a 2.5-10. I use both, and I find myself almost never using the LPVO at 1x anymore. I leave it on about 2.5 to 3x and move to 8x if I need holdovers (SFP), otherwise all close range work get the MRDS.
Vudu 1-6 would be number one my list as well as far as non-illuminated FFP reticle for 1x usage.

I too prefer the 12:00 position for mrds.

#1 for nv passive aiming #2 for hasty aiming with lpvo on >1x #3 for total Nightforce optic failure

 

[Burdy]

I too prefer the 12:00 position for mrds.

#1 for nv passive aiming #2 for hasty aiming with lpvo on >1x #3 for total Nightforce optic failure

#4 you can go support and strong side down and still use it, you only get to choose one if you mount it at 45 degrees. Nice looking setup. I would have mine on top of that ring cap instead of the front one if I didn't have an exposed elevation turret.

 

[cake5150]

Because. LPVO's are used in dynamic high-stress situations in which multiple targets, often moving are engaged. If you need to engage various targets at 300-600 yards, quickly, while maintaining a FOV that encompasses all targets, you might not want your LPVO on 8x. 5x might prove to be much quicker. Well, now your holdovers are wrong if you are running SFP. So you have to go 8x and not see the other targets, or you have to dial your dope. Neither of those are as fast as engaging your holdovers at 5x. If you use an LPVO in a dynamic high-stress scenario, you will appreciate FFP. Currently, there is no perfect LPVO out there, so sacrifices must be made. There is also a high chance if you are stressed that you forget or don't realize you are not at max magnification, I have done it, had a bad day and not realized what the problem was until the drive home. It sucks.

FFP makes things more simple, and simple is better. With that being said there is no FFP LPVO that has the 1x view of a KAHLES K16 or K18, so you have to decide what is most important to you and where the majority of your engagements are going to take place. If you are also going to run a mini red dot, I would say the reason for coupling it with a FFP optic just got much stronger. If you rarely get past 300, where you can just hold center dot on most anything torso sized, I would say you would appreciate the better view that some of the SFP optics will provide. The most ideal setup in my opinion would be a mini red dot atop a lightweight FFP 2.5-10 or 3-12 or something like that if they could get them down to around 20 ounces or less. If I am just running one optic, choosing between SFP and FPP would be based entirely upon where I predicted the majority of my engagements to occur given the tradeoff between the two at this moment in time.

That is the best argument I've read in favor of a FFP LPVO, and that is coming from someone who doesn't like them. Well put.

 

[Denys]

And then there's the March 1-10X24 with the DR-1 reticle, which is a combination of FFP and SFP reticles, providing the best of both world. You have the crosshair and illuminated dot stay at the same size throughout the zoom range while the graduated FFP reticle grows and shrinks with the zoom.