Advanced Marksmanship Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

[TresMon]

What I'm going to attempt to contribute to LR shooting is to correct our language.

All of us use the name of a wind from 45* or 1:30clock as "half value" when most of us know the sine to get our needed correction is .707.

Imagine the confusion that gives new shooters. Imagine the confusion elementary school kids would have when a teacher asked what is 1/2 + 1/2? -expecting an answer of 1.414!

I learned early on we CALLED it a "half value wind" but actually HAD TO multiply our FV wind data by ~.707~ to get our corection for """"""Half Value"""""".

I don't know where the very first shooting instructor that started teaching us this screwball way got their schoolin, but where I went to grammer school 1/2 is .5 and .5 is 1/2.

Imagine telling a class full of grade school kids who was about to learn fractions for the first time "Class for todays lesson, when I SAY 1/2 you just are supposed to know I REALLY MEAN 3/4. So I better not hear anyone saying 1/2 + 1/2 is 1. Nope the correct answer is 1 & 1/2."

What??? But yet that's what we do & insinuate to new shooters.

Here's an example of a pretty typical wind ref. sheet out of a data book:

So you see on the wind clock that a wind at 45deg. / 1:30clock is called "HALF value." So that sounds really simple & is self explanatory- a real no brainer!

Take our full value wind data for this shot and half it for this 45deg wind. That's simple, quick and easy and <span style="font-weight: bold"> <span style="font-style: italic"> <span style="text-decoration: underline"> TOTALLY WRONG.</span></span></span>

We actually take the FV wind data, and multiply it by EXACTLY .707 to get the data for this shot. [.707 is very close to .75 or 3/4, hence my proposed new wind call name below]

So we see that we call this wind one thing, but do the math with another thing and there goes simplicity and K.I.S.S. principles right out the window. Not to mention it needlessly complicates things for the new comer.

Here's what I propose as the new standard in the educational industry for shooting:

A. For the rookie to novice LR shooter:

Wind direction (Degree/clock), Term, Sine
0*, 12clock "No Value" N/A
45*, 1:30clock "3Quarter Val." .707
90*, 3clock "Full Val." N/A


B. For the advanced shooter that can grade wind direction with more precision:

Wind direction (Degree/clock), Term, Sine
0*, 12 clock "No Value" N/A
30*, 1 clock "Half Val." .5
45*, 1:30clock "3/4 Val." .707
60*, 2 clock "7/8 val." .866
90*, 3 clock "Full value" N/A

This way the wind name communicates the required sine and their is no confusion.

If we split hairs no "3/4 value is not EXACTLY .707" and the same for "7/8 Value" these decimal places ares so close that if the shooter can't remember the exact sine, he can multiply full wind data by the direction of the call/term of the wind and it introduce no error noticeable on target as the difference of these decimal places are minuscule on target.

I seriously suggest every LR educational institution take on this new terminology ASAP.

Mod's can we make this a sticky to get the word out??

 

[Bowman]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

I never knew this. Thx TresMon. Are there any windcharts available that actually show corrections that correspond to the actual wind direction. I'm pretty simple minded so I always took the windchart literally.

 

[TresMon]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I never knew this. Thx TresMon. Are there any windcharts available that actually show corrections that correspond to the actual wind direction. I'm pretty simple minded so I always took the windchart literally.</div></div>

Bowman! Thanks for your open honesty. Way back in the day I took it literally, as EVERYONE I have spoke to personally on the matter. Bowman to answer your question every wind chart I have seen is wrong, per how I illustrated.

See folks, there's a better, simpler way.

 

[Target In Sight]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

This is valuable lesson. Printed and added in my logbook.

Thank you Sir.

Dyl..

 

[armymedic.2]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

yup i been doin it wrong. got me close, but never perfect....................................

army instruction and fm's did that one to me.......

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

I was taught 3/4 value.

 

[TresMon]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: force_multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was taught 3/4 value.</div></div>

Awesome! But your the exception to the rule. We need to get it standardized.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

I guess I was... in fact when i first started reading on here about 06 or so, couple of years before I actually joined... I was kinda surprised to see that I was the exception, and you'll be happy to know that I have taught a few guys 3/4 value.

 

[LUNCHBOX0621]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

Thanks for sharing this. I'll be putting this in my book as well

 

[PhrogDriver]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Wind direction (Degree/clock), Term, Sine
0*, 12clock "No Value" N/A
45*, 1:30clock "3Quarter Val." .707
90*, 3clock "Full Val." N/A

</div></div>

Maybe its just me, but I find the "Full Value" term paired with "N/A" for the sine to be a bit misleading. After all, the sine of zero is zero, thus the "N/A" for a zero degree wind makes sense, but the sine of 90 is 1. Having "N/A" listed for both a zero value wind and a full value wind just doesn't seem right to me. How about replacing the "N/A" for the sine on a 90 degree wind with 1.0?

 

[TresMon]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)


I understand exactly what your saying, it's but a technicality.

When I state sine= NA I mean there is no other math to do, thats all I meant.
For no value wind, there is no mental or calculator math to do. We just ignore the wind, therefore the sine is n/a, so to speak.

For a FV wind there is no math to do(regarding sines.) Just use the data as printed on your data/dope card. There is not mental or calc. math to do regarding sines. Therefore the sine is n/a, so to speak.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

I've always used the half value call for beginners in class, for the simple fact that they cannot call speed and angle more accuratly that the half call will get them anyway. I do take the time to explain that a more accurate call is 2/3, 1/2, but can you really eyeball the differance between a wind from 1 vs a wind from 2?

If you get 5 MOA for a full value 10 mph wind at 500, then call it .5 for the angle, you can be off by what, 1 MOA? 2 mph differance in the actual wind value is the same 1 MOA, how many of us can call wind speed across the range +/- 2 mph, not to mention the actual crosswind angle? Remember now, I'm talking sniping, no wind flags, trees, buildings, terrain, etc. messing with the flow, you know, real life, not a square range.

This is where experiance takes over. You see the conditions, relate that to simliar conditions you seen/shot in before, then apply the solution that worked then and shoot.

I don't deny that the solution presented is more accurate for a given wind speed and angle. I can also tell you that if I see someone whipping out a calculator to get the sine of an angle to apply to a wind speed they just swagged from a glance in the spotter, I will not be complimenting them on their precision solution.

The exact same thing applies to movers, calling it .5 is way close enough. Your speed call, combined with the wind call and your hold is not going to benefit much from using .7, so why make it any more complicated?

Now, if you are shooting a match, and everyone KNOWS the target speed of the mechanical movers, along with the angle and range, well by all means, use the precise solution and apply it as well as you can.

In the field, it will be a lot more like STMF, STMF (see the motherf..ker, shoot the MF'er), stop thinking about it. Rabbit or bird hunters, you swag a lead and shoot, who has time for angles and numbers?

Should the documentation be changed to be precise? Yes, I think it should. If I'm going to explain that a MOA is 1.047", not 1, I should at least show the correct math, then explain how to make it simple for field use. But, like spin drift at 500 yards, I would not dwell on it too much.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

Cory:

Tres and I discussed that in P.M.s. I had thoughts similar to your's. Here is what I wrote:

People need something they can use easily in position on the line.

What I do is to calculate the hold for the full value of what I estimate the wind to be at the range of the target.

Then I multiply that value by 0.7. That gives me a half value.

Now, if I think the wind is actually only half-way between full value and half value, I split the difference.

If I think the wind is actually about half-way between half-value and zero, I use half of the "half value."

Example: Suppose I dope a full-value wind as a 2 mil hold. A half-value wind would be 1.5. (Approximately.)

If the wind were between zero and half value, I'd use 3/4 mil.

If the wind were between half-value and full value, I'd use 1.75.

Now, that's not <span style="font-style: italic">mathematically</span> correct. But given the uncertainties of judging both the magnitude <span style="font-weight: bold">and</span> direction of the wind, it's a good starting place - and it's easy to calculate.

So, it's a compromise between speed and accuracy.

 

[Rifles Only]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

All those calculations Are a help only. They are a method by which to "Educate Your Guess"

The guess of down range wind is ALWAYS a guess. Don't kid yourself into believing you actually KNOW what it is. That is shooter arrogance and I promise it will bite you in the ass.

Now, the more you do it, the better your guess will be. You can become very accurate at this skill set. Your guess becomes an "educated guess"

However, make no mistake, it is still a guess.

This has to do with the fact that you can only accurately judge the wind at the shooter. The movement of grass tells you the grass is moving, same for trees. The bullet doesn't fly well through either medium.

The wind you get at the shooter is obviously the important wind, as it has the most sideways effect downrange. Bullets are stupid, they don't come back on course. Additionally, long shots require high trajectory. The wind increases with distance from the ground.

Point A and Point B, if only a few dozen yards apart, can have very different wind values. 6 feet off of the ground versus 18 feet off the ground also reveal very different values.

To learn to shoot the wind, you must shoot the wind, A LOT.

Calculations take time. It must become intuitive. Just like hitting a receiver with the football

 

[Lindy]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you must shoot the wind, A LOT.</div></div>

And we are fortunate to live in a place where the wind is always blowing, and that's the order of the day.

 

[blklabs]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To learn to shoot the wind, you must shoot the wind, A LOT.

Calculations take time. It must become intuitive. Just like hitting a receiver with the football </div></div>

That is a great analogy! Unfortunately, the wind doesn't blow through pine trees often or very well, nothing like a good South Texas 20+mph wind!

 

[CoryT]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

Yep, everything is a compromise. It's probably better to use .7 than .5, but I'm math-challanged. If you asked me what was .7 times 1.5 while I was on the line, you'd get the guppy look.

What's probably happened over the years of staring downrange is I just see either less angle off or more speed, which has lead to a pretty high percentage of decent calls.

I think to an extent we each get 'calibrated' if you will, by how we perceive the conditions and the results of the shot and our call.

I start out making wind calls for the line as we get out on the 400-800 yard line. I try to keep everyone on glass, even those off the line, so they see the mirage, etc., see the trace and strike, all while hearing the calls I'm providing. The next day, they start making the calls and I 'coach' them when I detect a problem. 'You said left how much? Really? Left?'. Then I'll start trying to describe just what I'm looking at and see if I can't get them to see it as well. Teaching now to read wind is probably the single hardest part of an instructors job.

I'm going to work using .7 into the next class and see if it improves things any. Of course, when the miss is 1 mil off the downwind edge and the hold is only 1.5, I'm not sure the whole .5 .7 thing enters into it

 

[CoryT]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

Right on Jacob, the math is only a starting point, it tells you what happens under specific controlled conditions. No chance of finding those in the field!

It's a whole lot more like Zen than science, at least it is for me. Drop is pretty darn straightforward math, drift is a whole 'nother ball game.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

whats 12:30 = ?

 

[DAFAR]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

All I can say is Holy S&^% and thank you

 

[kentactic]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

well this is news to me and im slow and pictures help me so i drew a cheezy diagram for anyone who wants to print it and put it in there logbook.

but as you can see it seems there are two angles that are missing from our clock 15 degrees and 75 degrees. let me know if i drew this correct OP.

 

[TresMon]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)


Your looking for 15* & 75*. One of the math-muh-tizers on here will have to give you the sine for that...

Yep you drew it correct!

 

[kentactic]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Your looking for 15* & 75*. One of the math-muh-tizers on here will have to give you the sine for that...

Yep you drew it correct! </div></div>

cool thanks!

 

[Carnivore]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Bullets are stupid, they don't come back on course."</div></div>

My bullets are smart, they went to school at Rifles Only! It's the loose nut behind my trigger that I always worry about.....

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Calculations take time. It must become intuitive. Just like hitting a receiver with the football </div></div>


QFT - I think I have calc'd wind only a handful of times in the last year. If you shoot enough - on your home field - you take a peek at your meter, a quick check for mirage 3/4 of the way down the lane, peek through the rifle optic for movement at the target, figure speed, oblique v. FV, and most times make a pretty good call - pretty quickly. With a lot more practice I could see where this could pretty much be done on a fast and loose basis with just sight and sound.

Regardless, esp since I tend to shoot by myself, I think the bigger thing is can you see your impact and can you make the correction quickly.

When in doubt for me - 1/2 MIL hold....and "called flyer"

I use a similar method to your flag math as down and dirty on observed mirage - basically noon (0) to 3 x 4 = speed. The guess is refined a bit by looking at the wavelength of the mirage.


Good luck

 

[TresMon]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All those calculations Are a help only. They are a method by which to "Educate Your Guess"

The guess of down range wind is ALWAYS a guess. Don't kid yourself into believing you actually KNOW what it is. That is shooter arrogance and I promise it will bite you in the ass.

Now, the more you do it, the better your guess will be. You can become very accurate at this skill set. Your guess becomes an "educated guess"

However, make no mistake, it is still a guess.

This has to do with the fact that you can only accurately judge the wind at the shooter. The movement of grass tells you the grass is moving, same for trees. The bullet doesn't fly well through either medium.

The wind you get at the shooter is obviously the important wind, as it has the most sideways effect downrange. Bullets are stupid, they don't come back on course. Additionally, long shots require high trajectory. The wind increases with distance from the ground.

Point A and Point B, if only a few dozen yards apart, can have very different wind values. 6 feet off of the ground versus 18 feet off the ground also reveal very different values.

To learn to shoot the wind, you must shoot the wind, A LOT.

Calculations take time. It must become intuitive. Just like hitting a receiver with the football </div></div>


Exactly, and I agree 100%. But a classroom, NO classroom regardless of the men behind it can give time earned -experience- to the guy on the trigger the first time.. My OP was merely to the green horn that sits down in class for the first time wanting to shoot LR. Of him I am speaking about & for in my OP. Let's not make it more complicated than need be on the front end <span style="font-style: italic">for that guy.</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
QFT - I think I have calc'd wind only a handful of times in the last year.<span style="font-weight: bold"> <span style="text-decoration: underline">If you shoot enough</span></span> - on your home field -
</div></div>
(<span style="font-style: italic">emphasis added by me)</span>

I understand and again agree. But the green Lr student has not "shot enough" - He has not shot AT ALL. So we must give him something. We give him the theory, the math, a data/traj card and our blessing. Per my OP to this newb, let's not make it more difficult than need be, quickening & smoothing his journey to having <span style="font-style: italic">shot enough.</span>

 

[kentactic]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">QFT - I think I have calc'd wind only a handful of times in the last year. If you shoot enough - on your home field - you take a peek at your meter, a quick check for mirage 3/4 of the way down the lane, peek through the rifle optic for movement at the target, figure speed, oblique v. FV, and most times make a pretty good call - pretty quickly. With a lot more practice I could see where this could pretty much be done on a fast and loose basis with just sight and sound.</div></div>


getting good at shooting at a specific location isnt much good for me. and also if anyone hunts it wouldnt help them either. the idea is to be able to be good when placed in a random location youve never been to before. atleast thats what i want to do...and i dont hunt... if you want to get good on your home feild then just put up a wind barrier around the range. instant wind expert.

 

[Accusource8541]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

Vern Harrison at Central Virginia Tactical uses a "wind rosette" that he gives out to his students that gives the sine for the wind direction and does a good job of teaching how to understand and apply it. Vern is uncanny with reading the wind too. As stated, some people tend to do better looking at a picture and the rosette seems to help out in this way.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

so does someone have the remianing values for 15* and 75* ?

 

[George63]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

call it .25 how far off could that be?

 

[TresMon]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)


LIndy will prolly tell us if we ask him nicely.

Please & thank you.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">call it .25 how far off could that be? </div></div>

yeah thats what i was thinking but.. you never know... and for 75*?... that could be nearly a full value...

*clicks his heels and chants lindy's name*

 

[kentactic]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

alright i messaged Lindy. he said they are:

15*= .26
75*= .97

im going to pencil them into my diagram.

 

[bigwill214]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

Now granted we are seeing various movements with the bullets based on the direction of wind. What I am concerned about is that we are saying no value for wind from the 12 and the 6 positions. If we do have wind from these directions shouldn't we account for them either adding or reducing drag on the bullet? I have seen at short range where a 12 o'clock wind will "push" a bullet down due to the added drag. The wind from the 6 o'clock would have the opposite effect and because of the reduced drag the POI would be higher on target. Anyone have comments on this part?

 

[TresMon]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigWill214</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now granted we are seeing various movements with the bullets based on the direction of wind. What I am concerned about is that we are saying no value for wind from the 12 and the 6 positions. If we do have wind from these directions shouldn't we account for them either adding or reducing drag on the bullet? I have seen at short range where a 12 o'clock wind will "push" a bullet down due to the added drag. The wind from the 6 o'clock would have the opposite effect and because of the reduced drag the POI would be higher on target. Anyone have comments on this part?</div></div>

BillWill: you "thought" you saw a vertical change in POI due to your 12clock head wind.

I say this because @ 500 yards, "moderate" range a classic .308 load will only drop an extra .070" from the added drag of a stiff 15mph headwind. .070" is just about 1/16". (1/16" = .0625")

The same classic .308 load, at a moderate 500 yards with a stiff 15mph tailwind will only hit .080" high from the wind pushing the bullet.

So we have .070 for a headwind & .080 for a tail wind. Let's average them (.075") and run some numbers: this shift in point of impact up or down is only .02 of the bullet's diameter! Your getting a shift of about one <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">meplat only!</span></span>

(Meplat is the point of the bullet. The teeny little flat front on your Hollow Point bullet.)

Headwinds and Tail Winds virtually have no value unless your shooting into a gale force wind, or shooting at ULTRA long range.

I don't think your crazy & I DO believe you witnessed a vertical movement from a wind. It was from the wind generating and updraft on the bullet. I don't know about where the geography is pancake flat but here in the hills and mountains of E. TN we ALWAYS get up/down drafts from wind coming out of about any direction.

 

[bigwill214]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

Great info TresMon. I appreciate the info. I think that it ends up being more pronounced when working with a 22LR but as you said there could have been an updraft which explains A LOT.. Thanks again.

 

[SAWMAN]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

Good observation and correction of a long-overlooked rule of thumb. I applaud any such effort, especially as it pertains to teaching new shooters in the classroom and simplifying and accurizing the concept.

When I see this kind of fine detail on wind calling, I immediately imagine seeing various experiences that conflict with such detailed agony on a force of nature that's anything but predictable, like watching one of my favorite shooters, Noma Zinsmaster, looking at a piece of yarn blowing from her spotting scope stand to make her main wind call and out-shooting all comers, or seeing flags at each 100 yard line blowing in opposite directions to the previous one, all the way out to the 1000 yard line, or us shooting in Norway and Germany in such high buffeting winds, each successful shot would be a significant variation between 1 mil and a truck length of wind hold.

Like some others have already pointed out through their own experiences, wind is rarely constant for long, in direction or velocity. Add to that the fact that as a sniper, your targets are rarely visible for too long, rarely stationary, rarely at the same altitude, slope, or temperature as your last shot...It can be a lot to calculate even in the daytime. Calling wind at night can be even more of a challenge. Shooting from a moving helo, vehicle, or ship? Yet another set of challenging factors. Different caliber than your last mission? Yet another significant factor to be on top of.

If you approach sniping from an entirely left-brained azimuth, I think you're only likely to enjoy average success. The great ones can learn from the past experiences and grow a personal database if instinct that adds to the calculation for a better overall success rate. In my experience, there's just simply not enough time in many cases to sit down and deliberately run out all the possible calculations and still engage the same live target. He's up, you see him, he's down. He's walking across the street, he's back inside. He's setting up in the window, he's moved on, etc. Did you get him? No? Better luck next time. If you have more time than that, it's a luxury, in my observation.

It's hard enough gaining a solid command of it without the students learning the basic formulas wrongly from the beginning in the classroom.

This kind of correction can be one less thing to trip a young sniper up later on when faced with so many of the other factors we've listed. Again, I applaud the effort and the advance.

www.tacticalinsider.com

 

[kentactic]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigWill214</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now granted we are seeing various movements with the bullets based on the direction of wind. What I am concerned about is that we are saying no value for wind from the 12 and the 6 positions. If we do have wind from these directions shouldn't we account for them either adding or reducing drag on the bullet? I have seen at short range where a 12 o'clock wind will "push" a bullet down due to the added drag. The wind from the 6 o'clock would have the opposite effect and because of the reduced drag the POI would be higher on target. Anyone have comments on this part? </div></div>

well i understand what your saying but i think that is a minute amount of additional drag. ALTHOUGH... here is what i understand... a wind from a 45 degree angle at 1:30 will not only push the bullert left it will also push it down.. why?.... because the bullet isnt flying flat it is nose angling down so that same wind will kind of drive the bullet lower like a sail boat. so on that same theory 12 Oclock will push the bullet downward aswell...

so i think any wind from infront of the bullet will make POI lower and any wind from behind will kinda of push up on the bullet like a kite and make POI higher. its all due to angle of bullet in flight. but the amount of up and down in comparison to its left and right affect is much less. and for most people there is no need to adjust.

i drew another cheezy picture to explain POI from different directions

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigWill214</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now granted we are seeing various movements with the bullets based on the direction of wind. What I am concerned about is that we are saying no value for wind from the 12 and the 6 positions. If we do have wind from these directions shouldn't we account for them either adding or reducing drag on the bullet? I have seen at short range where a 12 o'clock wind will "push" a bullet down due to the added drag. The wind from the 6 o'clock would have the opposite effect and because of the reduced drag the POI would be higher on target. Anyone have comments on this part? </div></div>



well i understand what your saying but i think that is a minute amount of additional drag. ALTHOUGH... here is what i understand... a wind from a 45 degree angle at 1:30 will not only push the bullert left it will also push it down.. why?.... because the bullet isnt flying flat it is nose angling down so that same wind will kind of drive the bullet lower like a sail boat. so on that same theory 12 Oclock will push the bullet downward aswell...

so i think any wind from infront of the bullet will make POI lower and any wind from behind will kinda of push up on the bullet like a kite and make POI higher. its all due to angle of bullet in flight. but the amount of up and down in comparison to its left and right affect is much less.

i drew another cheezy picture to explain

</div></div>

This is only really used in Benchrest shooting where guys are trying to gain bullet width advantages... so the small errors they see in their groups cannot be compared to a field shooter.

They are attempting to calculate fine variations which can be measure only in 10th of a inch given their sport. if you are attempting to wrap your head around this in the field, you've already lost.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigWill214</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now granted we are seeing various movements with the bullets based on the direction of wind. What I am concerned about is that we are saying no value for wind from the 12 and the 6 positions. If we do have wind from these directions shouldn't we account for them either adding or reducing drag on the bullet? I have seen at short range where a 12 o'clock wind will "push" a bullet down due to the added drag. The wind from the 6 o'clock would have the opposite effect and because of the reduced drag the POI would be higher on target. Anyone have comments on this part? </div></div>



well i understand what your saying but i think that is a minute amount of additional drag. ALTHOUGH... here is what i understand... a wind from a 45 degree angle at 1:30 will not only push the bullert left it will also push it down.. why?.... because the bullet isnt flying flat it is nose angling down so that same wind will kind of drive the bullet lower like a sail boat. so on that same theory 12 Oclock will push the bullet downward aswell...

so i think any wind from infront of the bullet will make POI lower and any wind from behind will kinda of push up on the bullet like a kite and make POI higher. its all due to angle of bullet in flight. but the amount of up and down in comparison to its left and right affect is much less.

i drew another cheezy picture to explain

</div></div>

This is only really used in Benchrest shooting where guys are trying to gain bullet width advantages... so the small errors they see in their groups cannot be compared to a field shooter.

They are attempting to calculate fine variations which can be measure only in 10th of a inch given their sport. if you are attempting to wrap your head around this in the field, you've already lost. </div></div>

yeah exactly i would never try to adjust for such minute changes in POI personally. just thought id tell him he was correct in his thinking.

 

[bigwill214]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

I come from a family of benchrest shooters so it is pretty much what I was used to hearing. I am finding this is an interesting change from that style to shooting in the "field" as it was previously put. I do thank everyone for the help though.

 

[TresMon]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)



Well, to REALLY smoke your gourd:

On a DEAD FLAT range with nothing to give up/down draft, a full value wind out of 3clock will not only drift your bullet left, but it will make it climb vertically UPwards too for a higher than anticipated impact. Yes it is minuscule and or a very long range thing, but I have seen it at long range.

Like wise a left wind in & of itself will make for a down vert. movement on the bullet too.

But like LL said, typical field shooters either want to hit or miss the steel.

Me- I'm "eat 'plum up with it." If I'm aiming dead center of the sternum, if the steel had one, and my POI is in the center of the clavicle if the steel had one- I'm PISSED and want to know why!!!!


Well crap, I hijacked my own thread AGAIN!

Let's get back to basic wind verbage and basic wind math discussion here...

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Well, to REALLY smoke your gourd:

On a DEAD FLAT range with nothing to give up/down draft, a full value wind out of 3clock will not only drift your bullet left, but it will make it climb vertically UPwards too for a higher than anticipated impact. Yes it is minuscule and or a very long range thing, but I have seen it at long range.

Like wise a left wind in & of itself will make for a down vert. movement on the bullet too.

But like LL said, typical field shooters either want to hit or miss the steel.

Me- I'm "eat 'plum up with it." If I'm aiming dead center of the sternum, if the steel had one, and my POI is in the center of the clavicle if the steel had one- I'm PISSED and want to know why!!!!


Well crap, I hijacked my own thread AGAIN!

Let's get back to basic wind verbage and basic wind math discussion here...</div></div>

How do you or anyone else know it is the "wind" and not the shooter or the rifle not giving a predictable flight at "longer ranges"

Elevation variables at distance can be several things...

Under Perfect conditions with a shooter breaking the shot a different points in the breathing cycle we have seen as much as 40" of vertical at 700 yards. Take a target you see from people on here with a vertical stringing of 1 MOA or more at 100 yards, what do you think that means at 1000 yards -- certainly not 10", not even 20" but more, it multiples at distance not adds.

Alot of "effects" are blamed on other things, everything but the shooter, if you are seeing "updrafts" on a flat range you better be looking at you and not the wind.

 

[TresMon]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Take a target you see from people on here with a vertical stringing of 1 MOA or more at 100 yards, what do you think that means at 1000 yards -- certainly not 10", not even 20" but more, it multiples at distance not adds.

Alot of "effects" are blamed on other things, everything but the shooter, if you are seeing "updrafts" on a flat range you better be looking at you and not the wind. </div></div>

I'm not other people on here and you've never seen a target of mine on here with 1+moa of vert. If a rifle doesn't shoot .25moa @ 400, it gets fixed or passed on. It can't live at my house.

2. I tune my hand loads to produce single digit fps variation numbers across the chrono. There goes your 40" or vertical @ 700yds. I know you discredit handloading, you have told me in Pm's and cal it a distraction to
good shooting, or something to that effect for which I counter: try finding a 7mm bullet with a G1 BC of .92 in any commercially loaded ammo....

Friend I have seen vertical come out of a wind drift at range:


All I have to say is:

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/

You can argue it over with Brian Litz all you like, I think you'd honor his statements & thoughts far more than you ever have mine anyways.

I have seen it at range.. and all the Rocket heads & ballisticians say it happens.


I never said it was a huge effect and that a shooter could use it as a crutch as to why they missed.

It's science it's there, and the science interests me. Thats my deal.

You don't have to love the science behind all this stuff, thats your deal.

I'm not disagreeing with what your trying to communicate. 99% of errors on target are purely human. But to the upper level shooter, who I think this Advanced Marksmanship section is dedicated to might like to know the science behind the nuances. Thats all I was offering.


Hope to get to come hang out someday,
Tres

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

Please,

I understand the merit of handloading and only find endless "load development' people do a distraction, so if you are gonna quote me get it right. I shoot a 7mm that is loaded for me by Cor Bon as well I have hired others to load my 260 for me, so I get it.

But I will also say, I chronographed the military Mk248 MOD 1 last week in a military rifle and it had an SD of 4, the average was 8fps, so again, spare me.

As far the science behind it, I know it far more then you think... however I see more of the shooter than any of the science and will debate Brian Litz and have both on and Off Line until both of us are blue in the face. Bottom line the science comes with a lot of caveats the favorite being, "all things being equal" which in the field when actually shooting all things are NEVER equal.

If you have "seen" the wind give you a noticeable change at distance, good on you but that must be a helluva wind. I know we are regularly shooting in 12+ MPH winds every week and when elevations vary, to a noticeable degree as in, I am on glass give a correction and a vertical elements is present to the point the correction is not valid, it is NOT the wind. I can also tell you, on the flat plains of South Texas there is a small wash that is just beyond the 900 yard berm that effects the shot to the winds movement around it, this wash is small, but effects the impact I think that is a verifiable reason "why" and not the fact the bullet spinning is "motoring" up the wind like climbing a wall.

So, please don't tell me what I subscribe to, or what I know or don't know, because I do this for a living and study it endlessly. I have 40 copies of Brian's Book, I keep a copy in my trailer in TX and I also subscribe to Pesja, Modern Ballistics, Hatcher, Cooper, Tubb, etc... not all of them agree with each other, that I can promise you.

If you want to go to PMs, weren't you the one pm'ing me saying looking what I found in regards to this thread and my answer to you was, "ya, that is how we do it, so why do you need me"...

 

[TresMon]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)


Yeah,
I said to look at this thread we need to standardize our wind lingo. You said you & yours was already there. I said Cool. Thanks.

So anywho, back to the initial point of the op:

 

[Swan]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

TresMon,

Good stuff.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can also tell you, on the flat plains of South Texas there is a small wash that is just beyond the 900 yard berm that effects the shot to the winds movement around it, this wash is small, but effects the impact I think that is a verifiable reason "why" and not the fact the bullet spinning is "motoring" up the wind like climbing a wall.
</div></div>


LL - can you please clarify what you are saying here a bit?


TIA

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

I've got to say I've seen wind related vertical on the 1000yd range I predominantly shoot at down here, which is on the west coast and where, in summer particularly, we get strong (20 kph at ground level, with gusts to 35kph - so stronger at apogee for the 308s and 223s trajectory) and variable on-shore wind from 6.30 or so, around to 11, depending on the day and the weather. We also get switchy head winds and some nasty off-shore (easterly) winds at times as well. However, the predominant onshore wind comes flogging over and in through the dunes and through massive gullies between the 600yd and 1000yd galleries and this can cause all manner of weird shit from 600 onwards. Occasionally, we get vertical shots into the 1,2 o'clock position, sometimes 2-3moa out of center. We call these 'head fuck' shots and do not correct for them, otherwise your next shot ends up 2-3 moa out of center at 7 or 8. The wind is a fickle mistress.

However, at 600 or less, the range is reasonably protected, but you still see wind pick-ups from the 8/9/10 position putting shots out to the right and slightly low, and drop offs then putting you high and left - particularly if you correct for the pick-up and then the wind drops slightly before or as you break the shot (i.e. you held high and left to compensate for the pick-up and then the wind drops back to what it was previously, giving you POA/POI). It's a compensation error, in short.

I think a lot of what can be seen in the vertical for wind does come from incorrect wind calls, after a pick-up or drop-off has had some vertical effect on a previous shot. Not sure if I'm making sense here but I've shot on this range a lot and far better and more experienced shooters than I have this occur, so there is some evidence behind the assertion.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

Terrain features cause the problem, not straight wind...

I have seen it at Thunder Ranch at the end of the bullet's flight, especially with things like a 308 or 223 which are not moving very fast, winds bouncing off terrain features carry the bullet up. But this is not to be confused with a straight horizontal wind driving the strike up due to the bullet rotation on the air. At Thunder Ranch, Clint, Jacob and I were shooting his rifle the "Hammer" to about 1200+ Plus yards across the valley to an opposite hill. The bullet was randomly impacting 10ft over the target at times. Well a light snow started and the winds where blowing up the side of the hills carrying the bullet, this can be seen in the snow. We were shooting 168gr bullets out of a 20" rifle over 1200 yards away.

Sacramento Valley Range has a Terrain feature around 500 yards give or take, that is in the line of the wind which has a slope on the up wind side which, Jumps the wind across the range giving you a vertical component at the right movement. It's not rocket science, it wind hitting something and bouncing off.

Cause and effect, Terrain features diverting the wind giving it a vertical element.

Same with the wash at RO, it is in the path of the prevailing wind, which lifts the wind up in a ramping fashion around the 900 yard line. Which at sea level, if you are shooting a 168gr bullet will cause a vertical because the bullet is going Transonic a lot of the time.

Straight winds unaffected by Terrain are not causing it, terrain, absolutely can cause it, and during our class at Sac Valley I demonstrated this in detail.

It's not Voodoo, wind is water, when moved, and funneled and squeezed between berms and other terrain feature, even small ones, it increases the velocity, like rapids on a river. Wind is water...

When a person is at the range and flags are present from 200 to 1000 yards and one flag is going the wrong way, the Prevailing winds are not clashing, the wind is bouncing off something like a berm and moving locally, you don't have a prevailing wind out of the East with a narrow spike coming from the West, the air doesn't flow that way. You have a local disturbance caused by something like berm, hill, sand dune, wash, etc...

And I hate to say, I think the point was missed earlier, when I say we saw 40" in vertical at 700 yards, that was not due to MV variations, but shooter variations. Not Breaking the Shot at the bottom of the breathing cycle, but at different points, caused this vertical -- the SHOOTER, not the MV, the Shooter. Breaking the shot incorrectly can cause a person to hit above an E Type one shot and below the target on another without changing a thing but where and how they executed the shot.

Science for sure, but not the science of the bullet climbing the wall of air it is falling through.