Lets play "diagnose shooters error"

[Djstorm100]

I'll admit I'm new to this type of shooting I've got a Ar-15 that I built with the following:
BCM upper and lower
Rainier Match 18inch barrel
Rifle gas system
Syrac adjustable Gas block
American Defence Recon Scope
Primary Arms 4-14 Mil/Mil FFP replaced with Vortex 1-4x Mil/Mil scope (PA is going back for warranty)
AAC Brakeout 2.0
Carbine tube with H buffer
Raptor charging handle
Rainier Arms Force Rail(keymod)
American Defense Mount
Magpul STR stock


I've found that Wolf Gold .223 is really pressured up to 5.56 and I get 3170-80's from my rifle (don't know have the chrono file with me as it is on the other computer).

I zeroed with some cheap PMC Brozne and when switch to Wolf I notice my groups were one click up and left (one click is .2 mil or .76" at 100 yards)
re-confirmed zero and went to indoor local shooting range last night where I shot this group (sitting with bipod w. bag). Now I'm only using a 1-4x and getting wash out of the reticle on the target. Would like to find some bright backgroup targets but that is another topic.


I did notice this tid bit. When shooting I know at times (during recoil) the reticle would go straight up around the 3 inch above POA and then settle back down during firing/ejection/chambering new round. I was thinking sweet I'm finally start to get it because the reticle would be back on target or very very close to it. Then for whatever reason during recoil it was go up and the right. What would change this? I'm not 10% sure and tried to point it out the last 20 minutes of range time but couldn't pin point it.


What would cause this type of groups? You can see how there are 2 different groups and 2 flyers but this is the same string

 

[Sterling Shooter]

All you know for sure is hits indicate where the barrel was pointed. You could have a multitude of problems/errors. You do not need discern the cause/s of error, you just need to concentrate on what is needed to get the desired result, i.e. properly pointing the rifle with consistent sight alignment, and pulling the trigger without moving the rifle utilizing smooth trigger control.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

I'll admit I'm new to this type of shooting I've got a Ar-15 that I built with the following:
BCM upper and lower
Rainier Match 18inch barrel
What would cause this type of groups? You can see how there are 2 different groups and 2 flyers but this is the same string

There is nothing significantly wrong with your groups. The problem is not your rifle, which is a very well parted and built system. You have a good barrel and good components.

It is the ammo. You are running cheap ammo what is not matched to your rifle system. You did not mention the rate of twist of the barrel. You could have issues with the 55 grain bullets being over stabilized. This happens with HK 556. It has a 1in7 twist and it hates the 55 grains. Try a different grain bullet, such as a 62, 69 or 77 grain.

Do not let people tell you it is you. There are a lot of barrel harmonics and other factors that are going on that have nothing with you pulling the trigger. The groups above, with the ammo you are using, are good groups.

I would recommend that you start reloading and figuring out what is the best combination bullet, powder, powder charge, bullet seating depth and bullet profile. Then, and only then, will you be able to get the full value of your rifle system.

Would love to see a picture of the rifle, it sounds like a nice rig. Good work.

 

[Djstorm100]

There is nothing significantly wrong with your groups. The problem is not your rifle, which is a very well parted and built system. You have a good barrel and good components.

It is the ammo. You are running cheap ammo what is not matched to your rifle system. You did not mention the rate of twist of the barrel. You could have issues with the 55 grain bullets being over stabilized. This happens with HK 556. It has a 1in7 twist and it hates the 55 grains. Try a different grain bullet, such as a 62, 69 or 77 grain.

Do not let people tell you it is you. There are a lot of barrel harmonics and other factors that are going on that have nothing with you pulling the trigger. The groups above, with the ammo you are using, are good groups.

I would recommend that you start reloading and figuring out what is the best combination bullet, powder, powder charge, bullet seating depth and bullet profile. Then, and only then, will you be able to get the full value of your rifle system.

Would love to see a picture of the rifle, it sounds like a nice rig. Good work.

Thank you, the barrel is a 1:8 twist. I have some Magtech 62 grain FMJ (NOT M855) and my rifle hated the round.

I knew it is not the gun and is me. I need to work on my fundamentals and just starting in this game. I know my recoil management needs vast improving as recoil was straight back at times and then up and to the left. I use to reloading actually with a dillon 650 but had to sell my gear when I got diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes last year at the age of 25.

Here is the rifle with the PA scope but now it is sports the Vortex 1-4x and new STR stock.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

Throw some FGMM or Fiocchi match 77 gr bullets through it and see if that improves anything. The 55gr Wolf Gold (judging by your velocity) is not what I would measure the overall accuracy of the rifle / shooter combo to establish a good baseline. It pains me to say it, there is some truth in what Sterling Shooter says, but it's not the end all be all determination in what we see down range. Ammo can play a pretty drastic role in what we see down range and it's a very simple change to make so it would be the first thing I'd look at.

 

[Djstorm100]

Throw some FGMM or Fiocchi match 77 gr bullets through it and see if that improves anything. The 55gr Wolf Gold (judging by your velocity) is not what I would measure the overall accuracy of the rifle / shooter combo to establish a good baseline. It pains me to say it, there is some truth in what Sterling Shooter says, but it's not the end all be all determination in what we see down range. Ammo can play a pretty drastic role in what we see down range and it's a very simple change to make so it would be the first thing I'd look at.

I 100% agree with you and Sterling. Just I have 1000's round of this stuff as I mostly run carbine classes and it's just what I have. I was impressed with the velocity and how consistent it was for bulk ammo. Not to sound like one of those guys off of Doomsday prepare BUT while I'm after to see how tight I can get the group and improve my game, at the end of the day being able hitting a man size target or part exposed I'm cool with. Just seeing what I could accomplish with this ammo.

I do need lessons/teaching on the fundamentals shooting form bipod/prone/etc.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

There is nothing significantly wrong with your groups. The problem is not your rifle, which is a very well parted and built system. You have a good barrel and good components.

It is the ammo. You are running cheap ammo what is not matched to your rifle system. You did not mention the rate of twist of the barrel. You could have issues with the 55 grain bullets being over stabilized. This happens with HK 556. It has a 1in7 twist and it hates the 55 grains. Try a different grain bullet, such as a 62, 69 or 77 grain.

Do not let people tell you it is you. There are a lot of barrel harmonics and other factors that are going on that have nothing with you pulling the trigger. The groups above, with the ammo you are using, are good groups.

I would recommend that you start reloading and figuring out what is the best combination bullet, powder, powder charge, bullet seating depth and bullet profile. Then, and only then, will you be able to get the full value of your rifle system.

Would love to see a picture of the rifle, it sounds like a nice rig. Good work.

The OP's group shows all shots are misplaced, since there are no shots where bullet path appears to have intersected point of aim. Also, since only the shooter knows how the shot looked, only the shooter can discern whether the error is caused by defective ammunition, unsatisfactory/broken rifle, or shooter inconsistency. Calling shots and plotting both call and shot can help determine the cause of error. For example, shots off call suggest sights not adjusted correctly for wind and weather conditions. Shots on call but not where desired indicate movement of the rifle. This latter error is associated with the shooter's inconsistent control of the rifle, which may result in grouping patterns that indicate where to trouble shoot. The bottom line is how can shooting be improved? Since the OP's reports on equipment and ammunition suggest the rifle is not broken and the ammunition is not defective or inappropriate, working on marksmanship (shooter consistency) would seem to be a logical response.

BTW, using match grade ammunition for rifle accuracy appraisal is a no brainer, since the inconsistency of average ammunition will always undermine the best possible results.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I 100% agree with you and Sterling. Just I have 1000's round of this stuff as I mostly run carbine classes and it's just what I have. I was impressed with the velocity and how consistent it was for bulk ammo. Not to sound like one of those guys off of Doomsday prepare BUT while I'm after to see how tight I can get the group and improve my game, at the end of the day being able hitting a man size target or part exposed I'm cool with. Just seeing what I could accomplish with this ammo.

I do need lessons/teaching on the fundamentals shooting form bipod/prone/etc.

You seem to have a good perspective on all of it. If you want a manual on M4 rifle marksmanship PM me with an email address.

 

[todd]

Sterling, I always pick something up from you, I really enjoy reading your posts.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Sterling, I always pick something up from you, I really enjoy reading your posts.

Thank you. Most of my work with students is diagnosing their errors. When working with Soldiers participating in the SDM program, I usually was responsible for three students on the firing line; and, with about two minutes between strings of fire to report back to all of them what could be some of their possible causes of error, I worked smartly on the subject of shooter/target analysis to be an effective coach. These shooter/target analysis skills are important I believe for any shooter/coach, since misdiagnosis is worse than no diagnosis. Diagnosing from group appraisal, like here, is not the best way to appraise the cause of error. Much easier is observing the shooter and asking the shooter how the shot looked; thereafter, using the call/shot corollary to discern the likely cause of shot misplacement. For shooters appearing to have a multitude of problems/error, the best advice to the shooter is to just concentrate on what it is that needs to be accomplished, i.e. sight alignment and trigger control.