Let's solve this savage dbm problem

[larbhills]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ogreshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, for us "Cheap Savage Owning Bastards" (I am in this category for the same reason as most), what about this option.

FN-FAL mag is about the same exterior dimensions. Next, cut off, say, 5" of the bottom of the mag, massage the metal to form to the bottom of the stock 4 rnd savage mag, tig weld them together, modify stock FAL spring to mate to the stock follower from savage.

Seems to me that would be an idea to chase down. Then you are out the cost of a donor mag, the stock mag portion is going to fit and work, and all that is out is time and some welding cost. Very minimal IMHO.

Lets see what others think... </div></div>

I stayed up almost all of last night designing a new "floor plate" that will combine the Savage sheet metal top with a cut-down metric FAL magazine. It was not complicated. The only problem I see at this point is that COL will be limited to 2.800" or less. Since different configurations are easy in Solidworks, I did a 10, 15, and 20 round configuration. I will post a picture tomorrow.

 

[spoon063]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: larbhills</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ogreshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, for us "Cheap Savage Owning Bastards" (I am in this category for the same reason as most), what about this option.

FN-FAL mag is about the same exterior dimensions. Next, cut off, say, 5" of the bottom of the mag, massage the metal to form to the bottom of the stock 4 rnd savage mag, tig weld them together, modify stock FAL spring to mate to the stock follower from savage.

Seems to me that would be an idea to chase down. Then you are out the cost of a donor mag, the stock mag portion is going to fit and work, and all that is out is time and some welding cost. Very minimal IMHO.

Lets see what others think... </div></div>

I stayed up almost all of last night designing a new "floor plate" that will combine the Savage sheet metal top with a cut-down metric FAL magazine. It was not complicated. The only problem I see at this point is that COL will be limited to 2.800" or less. Since different configurations are easy in Solidworks, I did a 10, 15, and 20 round configuration. I will post a picture tomorrow. </div></div>

MUCH appreciated. less the work, thats a $20 mag.

 

[Low Sioux]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I bought the Savage because it offered me a custom bolt gun quality at a rock bottom price.

</div></div>

That's funny right there. There is no savage that will even begin to compare to a custom rifle, much less in the quality department. It if did places like GAP, APA, KMW and others would be out of business. </div></div>

Yep, all this hardware is because they don't allow custom rifles at F/TR matches...Right?

http://www.savagearms.com/news/article/?id=1DoKxAoZh

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

there is always one man, lol.

 

[spoon063]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

any updates on the drawings or info from accurate?

 

[bama110]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

I was in the same boat finally talked to CDI went with there dbm and AI mag have not looked back works great good guy to deal with. I adds value to the rifle i recently sold a rifle with cdi metal and got all the money i hand in the rifle back out.

 

[larbhills]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Here are some pictures of the models I have been working on in Solidworks.

Magazine that came with my 10PC

Metric FAL magazine

Pictures of new assembly to follow.

 

[larbhills]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Ten round

Fifteen round

Twenty round

The only thing I don't like about the FAL mag is that the COL is limited to 2.800". In my 10PC, I run them a little longer than that usually.

 

[akmike]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Those look pretty nice, any ideas on what it would take to manufacture?

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

looks good, but i too run 2.82" in 168g and would imagine 175g's to be longer.

 

[larbhills]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: akmike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those look pretty nice, any ideas on what it would take to manufacture? </div></div>

Well, it would take a stock Savage magazine, a metric FAL magazine cut down, and the machined part in between. I think that the middle part might be a prime candidate for a MIM part. It looks to me like Savage's floor plate is MIM. Anyway, I have designed the middle part to be machined at this point and I need to design in a couple more tiny features before it is all done.

 

[spoon063]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

damn that's a great job! This is what i like to see. but what is the col of the stock 4rd? if theyre different, then wouldnt it pose a problem for the spring?

p.s. i'm ordering one of these mags as we speak so i can get some parts in hand to play with

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Low Sioux</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I bought the Savage because it offered me a custom bolt gun quality at a rock bottom price.

</div></div>

That's funny right there. There is no savage that will even begin to compare to a custom rifle, much less in the quality department. It if did places like GAP, APA, KMW and others would be out of business. </div></div>

Yep, all this hardware is because they don't allow custom rifles at F/TR matches...Right?

http://www.savagearms.com/news/article/?id=1DoKxAoZh </div></div>

It's my understanding that those rifles are not using factory barrels. There is also a lot more to a rifle than how well it groups. Function and reliability come first.

 

[larbhills]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Low Sioux</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I bought the Savage because it offered me a custom bolt gun quality at a rock bottom price.

</div></div>

That's funny right there. There is no savage that will even begin to compare to a custom rifle, much less in the quality department. It if did places like GAP, APA, KMW and others would be out of business. </div></div>

Yep, all this hardware is because they don't allow custom rifles at F/TR matches...Right?

http://www.savagearms.com/news/article/?id=1DoKxAoZh </div></div>

It's my understanding that those rifles are not using factory barrels. There is also a lot more to a rifle than how well it groups. Function and reliability come first. </div></div>

I use the hell out of my Savage. I have not had any function or reliability issues! Mine cost $699 and has NEVER been MOA or worse shooter. Maybe you have bad intel. On the other hand, please see my signiture.

 

[larbhills]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: spoon063</div><div class="ubbcode-body">damn that's a great job! This is what i like to see. but what is the col of the stock 4rd? if theyre different, then wouldnt it pose a problem for the spring?

p.s. i'm ordering one of these mags as we speak so i can get some parts in hand to play with </div></div>

The design uses the FAL mag spring at this point. The Savage spring would be way too short. The Savage follower unfortunately would need to be shortened.

 

[spoon063]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

yeah definately the fal spring but the follower would just have a bit more play in the top section? or i would think we could just use the fal follower also as opposed to shortening the savage one (or would the fal follower not feed properly into the top section?).

 

[larbhills]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: spoon063</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yeah definately the fal spring but the follower would just have a bit more play in the top section? or i would think we could just use the fal follower also as opposed to shortening the savage one (or would the fal follower not feed properly into the top section?). </div></div>

At first glance, the FAL follower did not look like it would work well with the Savage magazine top. I should look at it. I would be interested in how an AR10 or G3 mag might integrate. I only picked the FAL mag because I have them laying around.

 

[SmokinAce]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Tag for watching. I have had a SSS mag on order for over 3 months now with them pushing it back 4 times and never saying anything at the time of the order that it was a wait. Thought it would ship within a week or so and after 3 weeks I called and they told me 3 more works well here we are at over 3 months. There has to be a better solution/approach.

O yea the pisser is they charge you at the time of the order and sit on your money for months while you wait for your purchase.

 

[snipedogg]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: larbhills</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ten round

Fifteen round

Twenty round

The only thing I don't like about the FAL mag is that the COL is limited to 2.800". In my 10PC, I run them a little longer than that usually.
</div></div>

I have seen this done. It will work but you still have a cost issue. What will FAL mags cost, plus cost to modify, plus the cost to make an adapter to fit the 2 magazines together. I've seen this done with them simply welded together and it does work, but the other problem is also OAL is restricted.

 

[vwpilot]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Maybe I dont know how this works, but what is the problem with just manufacturing a new mag body that would use the Savage follower and have the stock Savage dimensions where it goes into the gun?

In other words, just making a longer version of the current mag?

I mean if all this work is going into making extensions, it sure seems like a mag company could simply just make a full mag to the specs, the same way they do it for pistol and AR mags.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

accurate magazines make the savage mage ive heard.

http://www.accurate-mag.com/index.html

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

I missed this thread! I actually did the same thing you guys are talking about, I bought a replacement magazine from savage($30-$40 IIRC)bought a cheap used mag at the local shop, cut it to fit, welded it together, and off to the range. I had a little problem with the mag spring, But it worked out, the mag looked like a 15 round but I could only reliably feed ten or so.

 

[snipedogg]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vwpilot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe I dont know how this works, but what is the problem with just manufacturing a new mag body that would use the Savage follower and have the stock Savage dimensions where it goes into the gun?

In other words, just making a longer version of the current mag?

I mean if all this work is going into making extensions, it sure seems like a mag company could simply just make a full mag to the specs, the same way they do it for pistol and AR mags. </div></div>

The problem is that the mag well has a slight taper and the plastic piece on the bottom of the factory mag is what holds it in place from moving around and falling out. This is why you see the piece on the illustrations, that keeps it tight in the mag well. This is why these designs incorporate the factory magazine

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

as much as we try to design a new take on it, and as much as we try not to straight copy SSS, thats really best and easiest thing to do. its more compact. we just gotta do one thing better than them, thats make the things. is there a patent on it? thats the first question. hell make it under license from SSS. if you cranked out a 1000 they would be sold.

 

[spoon063]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

well here's my reasoning for trying to go about it this way myself: I own ONE savage rifle. For that one rifle, it has not only the magazine design in question, but also the trigger gaurd bolt release. This poses numerous financial hurdles. I want 1-2 magazines of higher capacity that are COST EFFECTIVE for this one rifle. If I had unlimited financial resources as well as time, yes I would manufacture a solution for all to have. For a $20 FAL magazine, a handful of dedicated hours, and some ingenuity, my problem can be potentially solved.

 

[sniper7.62x51]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

iam an engineering student that likes to reverse engineer various gun parts on Solidworks and also Auto CAD. iam interested.

 

[snipedogg]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AXEMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">as much as we try to design a new take on it, and as much as we try not to straight copy SSS, thats really best and easiest thing to do. its more compact. we just gotta do one thing better than them, thats make the things. is there a patent on it? thats the first question. hell make it under license from SSS. if you cranked out a 1000 they would be sold.

</div></div>

AXE, I have not found a current patent on them, do any of your magazines have a patent number on them?

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

no patent number. just the company name. im not looking to rip anyone off, but this waiting is just crazy. there is demand. there is just no supply. like i said if someone could do it for them. somethings gotta give

 

[snipedogg]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

I don't see it as ripping something off if they advertise it but cannot produce. I've looked for a patent and cannot find one. Kinda hard to understand why they wouldn't have one. They may have one I just can't find it.

 

[larbhills]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

It is highly unlikely that SSS would take the time and money to get a patent on a part and then not produce it to keep up with demand. I can almost guarantee that the SSS mag is not patented. On the other hand, I am not comfortable with a direct rip off. I would be comfortable with reverse engineering it and improving it in some way.

 

[snipedogg]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Of course it wouldn't be a direct rip off. Just basing a design from their current design. I'm not that interested in having one of these anyways, I'd rather have a one piece magazine that I know I could rely on not coming apart in any situation. CDI is a great option right now. I'm still surprised how big of a topic this seems to be, considering that I've never seen Remington guys complain about this and they don't have any other options other than buying new bottom metal and mags as well.

 

[spoon063]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

well as fara s i know, all remingtons are plug n play while only half of savages are. cdi isn't plug n play with the new bolt release. again, the acme does work with the new design but is only available from sss when in stock and they can get it out. this goes back to the basic principle of supply and demand. i bet you would raise a cow if there was only one dairy farm 4 months away.

 

[snipedogg]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

I'm pretty sure you have to inlet most Remingtons to fit a certain bottom metal. I'm not trying to argue, just simply state the facts. I know Bottom Metal has not always been around the Savage market but for obvious reasons of bolt pattern changes. Now that they look to be sticking to one, were going to see more stuff introduced into the market. Even AICS is coming out with a Savage stock sometime in the near future. I wish there was an easier way to have extended magazines but right now the SSS design is really the best thing, if somebody were to base a design off that and make them then it would be a great alternative to spending $300. The big disadvantage is that you still have to inquire the factory mags. First off they are cheaply designed, secondly, If you want to have more than one magazine, you will need to buy another factory mag for like $30 on top of the $80-90 on an extended mag. After shipping and everything you will have spend almost $150 on one magazine which is only $60 less than new bottom metal. This is obviously an expensive sport and people are coming out with more designs to simplify things all the time, apparently the mag extension is just not a huge market compared to others in the industry.

 

[spoon063]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

I dont know, maybe it was the way I was raised, but I believe if you need something done then you can't always rely on someone else to provide the solution. In every other sport/industry that I'm involved in, everytime someone needs a fix , they go tial and error it out until they find the solution then post a "how to" on boards so it helps everyone out. I know gunsmithing is far more complicated than any other sport/industry I'm interested as well BUT it goes back to what axeman said "it's a box, how hard can it be?". This isn't a trigger job...

I should have a metric FAL mag hopefully by monday. I will then be cutting it to try and fit it to the bottom of the stock mag, as well as working out any spring/follower issues. If it works, I plan on either cutting the bottom cap of the stock 4rd mag to fit around where the two are bonded or I will make a plate to install into the bottom metal to center the mag.

 

[snipedogg]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Not trying to say that it's not a good solution, because is can be, just that it is something that you can do to fit your gun after doing a lot of modifying but it's not going to be something that can be sold at a reasonable enough price for it to be worth mass producing. I completely agree with you that it will work, the FAL mags fit right up to the factory magazine and can be welded together rather than using a piece of plastic, this makes it a one piece design so it's much more rugged. If you run into any problems just PM I can help you out.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

i dont think anyone will have to worry about the SSS style or design coming apart. and the only thing about the FAL style is the COAL of the FAL. is there another donor mag with more room? the stock mag looks like it could handle a 3.00" COAL

 

[snipedogg]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

The stock mag has a ton of room. The outer dimensions of the FAL are the same as the factory mag but the factory mag is thinner steel so it has more interior space. You could use a mag with the same interior dimensions rather than exterior dimensions and still be able to fit. You'd just have to make the piece that holds them together have a larger bottom inlet to fit the larger mag without it being too big to fit inside the mag well.

 

[larbhills]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

FAL mags have a funny feature on the interior. There are sheet metal "bump outs" in the rear corners that stick out close to .25" with a groove of about .2" wide down the middle. I really can't tell why the heck they built that in.

 

[snipedogg]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Yeah they have the plate that lines the front center of the interior too. It could be taken off but it's there to prevent the spot welds from damaging the tips of the bullets. I think it could be replaced with a thinner piece though, the one that is in it is thick as hell. Once again, this is another labor/cost issue that prevents it from being a cheap build. But, for the guy who is hands on, it's great to at least do it for your personal rifle.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

could you use a V shaped thing in there like a 90* angle for that plate you guys are talking about? or curved like a ( or a ) ?? you only need 0.2"

 

[snipedogg]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

I'm not sure what your trying to say AXE..

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

well i cant say i have ever looked inside an FAL mag. but if there is a plate that limits the COAL in there, can it be replaced with a plate thats bend in a radius or an angle to give more room for in the tip or is it a plate at the back of the round?? im just guessing at stuff without seeing a mag

 

[spoon063]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

you mean press the front of the mag out and plate it on the inside with a curved brace? i thought about that, as far as tapering the mag torwards the front to just get a little extra oal room in there. the stock 4rd mag isnt a straight single stack, its slightly staggered. if the FAL mag is the same dimensions, it should also be a slightly staggered stack as well which means you cant just groove up the inside of the mag for the tip to clear in a single line. it will need equal clearance across the front of the mag for the tips to clear as they stack off center.

 

[LongArm]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

ok, what about this, a longer sleeve that fits over a 308 mag of your choice (magpul, c-products etc..) to keep the mag from wobbling an moving (that will fit the into OEM mag hole on the Savage). The sleeve could keep the mag the right height. This could be designed 2 ways. 1 way is that the sleeve would eject from the rifle by way of the OEM lever. 2nd way is that the sleeve has a second lever/cantilever that releases the 308 mag from the sleeve <span style="text-decoration: underline">but the sleeve stays in the rifle</span>.

If you use a morta (AICS)mag it would be a lot simpler. Or maybe a magpul style AR10 mag. The sleeve would need to be produced and the mags would be readily available.

 

[spoon063]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

the only thing about the shim method is you would need to make a new mag release to reach through the sleeve, or make a new one integrated in the sleeve.

 

[chris19210]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

Innovation comes from building off past work...as long as you don't copy exactly what he has its tough for a patent law suit to be filed. I completely agree that SSS is tough to deal with. I believe SSS realizes they are the primary supplier for aftermarket parts for savage rifles and remains stagnant with business growth because they feel as though the demand will always be there for them. Because of this backlog I purchased a CDI and had him inlet my B&C Medalist stock...boy does it look like shit! It is recessed a 1/4inch in the stock leaving sharp edges. I'll have to upload a picture. Jeff seemed nice when placing the order but failed to mention that it would look like shit and after arguing my case he basically said try and sale it online. He told me not to worry it will function perfectly...wtf it should for the first place and secondly you don't spend $500 to have a piss poor looking set up. Call me a fashion whore if you wish but I believe in having something that both looks and performs well.

I'm done with CDI after this.

All in all: I'll purchase a mag from you if done properly. Keep this instance of mine in mind when working on your development. Good luck.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

well i dont have CDI, but here is what i learned from looking at pictures and talking to jeff. he doesnt make it to fit the bottom profile of every stock. there are plenty of pictures and you can see its not level. when i saw them and asked, he said it was not gonna be flush fit all of the stocks out there but it would work 100%. most people will work on the stock to get the lines to match and just shoot it. but just using search on this site would show you that they dont always match or sit level in line with whatever stock you want. try the SSS ACME system. there is one for sale in the classifieds and it fits flush. its where i got the pictures i posted. someone will buy your CDI stuff pretty quick. and you can try Vbull if the CDI dont suit you.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2162885#Post2162885


just curious, what all cost $500?

 

[MitchInOR]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chris19210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Innovation comes from building off past work...as long as you don't copy exactly what he has its tough for a patent law suit to be filed. I completely agree that SSS is tough to deal with. I believe SSS realizes they are the primary supplier for aftermarket parts for savage rifles and remains stagnant with business growth because they feel as though the demand will always be there for them. Because of this backlog I purchased a CDI and had him inlet my B&C Medalist stock...boy does it look like shit! It is recessed a 1/4inch in the stock leaving sharp edges. I'll have to upload a picture. Jeff seemed nice when placing the order but failed to mention that it would look like shit and after arguing my case he basically said try and sale it online. He told me not to worry it will function perfectly...wtf it should for the first place and secondly you don't spend $500 to have a piss poor looking set up. Call me a fashion whore if you wish but I believe in having something that both looks and performs well.

I'm done with CDI after this.

All in all: I'll purchase a mag from you if done properly. Keep this instance of mine in mind when working on your development. Good luck. </div></div>

I was all set to get the CDI when they first came out, until I saw a picture off one installed in a McMillan stock. I just can't do that to mine. If I was in a situation where fast reloads are a must it would be a different story. I'm not, so top-loading is fine for now.

From what I hear he makes a good product. It's just that he decided to design it to drop in to a stock that is already inleted for the stock detachable magazine system. If my stock came with that system I would most likely spend the $200 on the CDI, and except it for what it is. You would have several choices in mags and not need to mess around with some cobbled together mags from a company that won't take the time to communicate with their customers.

 

[spoon063]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

so in the meantime i just took the bottom plate off my 4rd mag and put it back in the bottom metal. it doesn't need the plate on the bottom to center the entire mag, just the bottom from having play. there's enough room (but not too much) where if you were to bond the stock mag with another by a sleeve around the two, it should (in theory) take up the slack and make it fit flush if fit properly without the bottom cap involved.

 

[spoon063]

Re: Let's solve this savage dbm problem

FAL mag will be here in a couple hours, then off to grab beer and stop at home depot as needed... will keep you posted. good timing for messing around with a long weekend here.