Rifle Scopes Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

[PLeighton]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

The IOR is a Second Focal Plane optic.

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

1.5 is not 1 and the added magnification can be a detractor in the intended role of these optics.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anchor Zero Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1.5 is not 1 and the added magnification can be a detractor in the intended role of these optics. </div></div>1.1 is not a 1 either.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The IOR is a Second Focal Plane optic. </div></div>you are right, I got it confused with they new one they have coming out that was at SHOT.

 

[smokshwn]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CrazyDonkey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IOR makes a 1.5-8x26 with a 35mm tube that has been out for a while. So the Leupold is not the only one on the market. </div></div>

With respect to 1x scopes 1.5 does not come close as a comparison. So no, as of today there is not any other 1x-8x scopes available.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

this guy seemed to think it was alright...he has a little experience.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2083349

 

[sititunga]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CrazyDonkey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IOR makes a 1.5-8x26 with a 35mm tube that has been out for a while. So the Leupold is not the only one on the market. </div></div>

With respect to 1x scopes 1.5 does not come close as a comparison. So no, as of today there is not any other 1x-8x scopes available. </div></div>

S&B and Premier both have true x1-8 power scopes coming out in April and early summer, and they are going to be $1500 cheaper than the highly inflated Leupold.

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

Thought the SB and PR were also 1.1x

I was under the impression that in the optics world 1.1x is considered 1X as the only true 1x would be a nonmagnified tube.

 

[smokshwn]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CrazyDonkey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IOR makes a 1.5-8x26 with a 35mm tube that has been out for a while. So the Leupold is not the only one on the market. </div></div>

With respect to 1x scopes 1.5 does not come close as a comparison. So no, as of today there is not any other 1x-8x scopes available. </div></div>

S&B and Premier both have true x1-8 power scopes coming out in April and early summer, and <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-size: 14pt">they are going to be $1500 cheaper</span></span></span> than the highly inflated Leupold. </div></div>

If all of us only had a $1 for everytime a manufacturer promised a product release date and price....we wouldn't care that the Leupy is $4k

But again, for the developmentally challenged among us, the Leupy has ZERO competition today and for the forseeable future. If that changes, the discussion may have new parameters.

 

[sititunga]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If all of us only had a $1 for everytime a manufacturer promised a product release date and price....we wouldn't care that the Leupy is $4k

But again, for the developmentally challenged among us, the Leupy has ZERO competition today and for the forseeable future. If that changes, the discussion may have new parameters. </div></div>

SWFA and Midway already have the S&B and Premier listed at $2500-$2600. I spoke to S&B the other a week and they confirmed April to be the release date for their 1-8. The fact that Leupold and its distributors are using the line that the CQBSS is the only scope in town, hence the justification for the hefty price tag, is completely unconscionable and sadly suggests Leupold has no regard for developing any long term relationship with its customers. The notion that Leupold is happy to price gouge its customers in this way is a recipe for a PR disaster - customers will remember this bitter taste when other products become available and will leave Leupold in droves. Furthermore, the impression that Leupold is now a listening company (as per Lowlights visit) is quite evidently a big sham!

 

[jasonk]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
SWFA and Midway already have the S&B and Premier listed at $2500-$2600. I spoke to S&B the other a week and they confirmed April to be the release date for their 1-8. The fact that Leupold and its distributors are using the line that the CQBSS is the only scope in town, hence the justification for the hefty price tag, is completely unconscionable and sadly suggests Leupold has no regard for developing any long term relationship with its customers. The notion that Leupold is happy to price gouge its customers in this way is a recipe for a PR disaster - customers will remember this bitter taste when other products become available and will leave Leupold in droves. Furthermore, the impression that Leupold is now a listening company (as per Lowlights visit) is quite evidently a big sham!</div></div>

I lol'd at least 3 times while reading this post.

So which one of the two are you ordering in "April"?

 

[smokshwn]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

SWFA and Midway already have the S&B and Premier listed at $2500-$2600. I spoke to S&B the other a week and they confirmed April to be the release date for their 1-8. </div></div>

+1 with Jason.....Let us know when yours arrives. As I am sure a person of your experience and knowledge is aware, S&B has never missed a release date

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The fact that Leupold and its distributors are using the line that the CQBSS is the only scope in town, hence the justification for the hefty price tag, is completely unconscionable and sadly suggests Leupold has no regard for developing any long term relationship with its customers. The notion that Leupold is happy to price gouge its customers in this way is a recipe for a PR disaster - customers will remember this bitter taste when other products become available and will leave Leupold in droves. Furthermore, the impression that Leupold is now a listening company (as per Lowlights visit) is quite evidently a big sham! </div></div>

As to Leupy losing customers, the customers this scope speaks to are a very narrowly focused group. A group which has voiced through several different venues that the scope is exactly what they want. And although everyone wants it to cost $1.50 they also realize that the function and quality of the scope are worth the price.

The objective evidence lies in the fact that Leupold is selling all they can build. Feel free to grind your ax but you're clearly unable to appreciate that many very well respected and knowledgeable people disagree with your obviously uneducated opinion.

 

[sititunga]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

SWFA and Midway already have the S&B and Premier listed at $2500-$2600. I spoke to S&B the other a week and they confirmed April to be the release date for their 1-8. </div></div>

+1 with Jason.....Let us know when yours arrives. As I am sure a person of your experience and knowledge is aware, S&B has never missed a release date

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The fact that Leupold and its distributors are using the line that the CQBSS is the only scope in town, hence the justification for the hefty price tag, is completely unconscionable and sadly suggests Leupold has no regard for developing any long term relationship with its customers. The notion that Leupold is happy to price gouge its customers in this way is a recipe for a PR disaster - customers will remember this bitter taste when other products become available and will leave Leupold in droves. Furthermore, the impression that Leupold is now a listening company (as per Lowlights visit) is quite evidently a big sham! </div></div>

As to Leupy losing customers, the customers this scope speaks to are a very narrowly focused group. A group which has voiced through several different venues that the scope is exactly what they want. And although everyone wants it to cost $1.50 they also realize that the function and quality of the scope are worth the price.

The objective evidence lies in the fact that Leupold is selling all they can build. Feel free to grind your ax but you're clearly unable to appreciate that many very well respected and knowledgeable people disagree with your obviously uneducated opinion.
</div></div>

I've never suggested I'm educated. I don't have a problem with Leupold per se, they're a large volume manufacturer who build mid-quality scopes, but what I do object to is when the same manufacturer then suddenly professes to produce the best quality scopes on the market with a price tag to match. Companies simply don't earn this kind of reputation over night. I just feel sorry for the people who get suckered into buying one of these at the $4k price.

 

[sititunga]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I lol'd at least 3 times while reading this post.

So which one of the two are you ordering in "April"? </div></div>

Neither I'm yet to be convinced that I need the magnification of a 1-8 scope on my 556 SBR. An S&B 1-4 Short-Dot will suffice on that gun.

 

[mjh30]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

Anyone know why these scopes are being sold to the military through private vendors.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mjh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone know why these scopes are being sold to the military through private vendors. </div></div> that happens with a lot of military contracts. From office supplies, computers, equipment etc

 

[sititunga]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mjh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone know why these scopes are being sold to the military through private vendors. </div></div>

Sounds a bit fishy, you would think you would get the best bang by cutting out any middlemen by going to the manufacturer directly.

 

[mjh30]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

However said the Army was smart, well not the Army per se, Socom was buying them this way. As for all the Mk8's getting made, anyone care to guess the buyer.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mjh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone know why these scopes are being sold to the military through private vendors. </div></div>

Sounds a bit fishy, you would think you would get the best bang by cutting out any middlemen by going to the manufacturer directly. </div></div> not the case. I order dell servers from third parties for a lot cheaper than if i ordered directly from dell.

 

[jasonk]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mjh</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As for all the Mk8's getting made, anyone care to guess the buyer.</div></div>

Ummmmm......Botach?

 

[mjh30]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

I wouldn't personally buy from Botach and I would suggest to others not to either. As for the buyer, I guess the Corp is going to have the hands full of Mk8's. The Army didn't really buy many at all.

 

[PLeighton]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mjh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone know why these scopes are being sold to the military through private vendors. </div></div>

Sounds a bit fishy, you would think you would get the best bang by cutting out any middlemen by going to the manufacturer directly. </div></div>
Simple explanation...
It is a lot quicker and easier to use the "Simplified Acquisition System" which for all intents and purposes requires you to use small business and preferred categories. (Women owned, Veteran Owned, etc.)
Check out the Small Business Administration's web site for more info. http://www.sba.gov/

The reason for this is simple...
Spending tax payer dollars on the broadest amount of tax payers is good for the economy.
(This is not a new program by the way.)
It is often more expensive than a direct purchasing contract, but that is the law...

 

[marshallwk]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

The reticle on the version the marines purchased is different. Sadly the army only bought a few for a specific unit. The rest of us are using our 40 pound ELCAN's as 1-4's.

 

[KM375]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

Its easy to do when some mil units have a " local Purchase"" ability, kinda like a discretionary fund for needed items.

 

[KM375]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I lol'd at least 3 times while reading this post.

So which one of the two are you ordering in "April"? </div></div>

Neither I'm yet to be convinced that I need the magnification of a 1-8 scope on my 556 SBR. An S&B 1-4 Short-Dot will suffice on that gun. </div></div>

Its my understanding that this scope is more designed for the KAC SR25 EMC, Most of the folks I know that have multiples uppers for their 5.56 guns have an eotech/aimpoint on a 10 inch and a SB 1x4 on the 14.5 inch and a Leupold 1x8 on a 308 gun.

 

[mjh30]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

Dr Phil, thanks for the further explaination, that makes total sense. With regards to the use of these scopes, they got a different reticle becuase they are slated to be used on the Corp's 50's and Mk19's.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I lol'd at least 3 times while reading this post.

So which one of the two are you ordering in "April"? </div></div>

Free shipping via the Easter Bunny.

I'm sure that S&B will deliver a great 1-8 scope, and I'm sure God thought the universe was a five day job, why else did he rest on the seventh day? Completion dates slip. These optics where first showcased at Shot Show 2010 weren't they, so I think that unless someone says that they are on the truck and have a tracking number, things might not happen when they want.

I see TMR version 1-8s for $3300 on this forum and in Google searches, so I'm sure that if they are already off their +$4k price point, they will adjust more. Take out that goofy mount (if it the same one I've seen) and maybe they can drop another two bills off the price. Pretty soon you are sub $3K. Look at Remmy ACR prices since they were introduced.

 

[sititunga]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FromMyColdDeadHa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Free shipping via the Easter Bunny.

I see TMR version 1-8s for $3300 on this forum and in Google searches, so I'm sure that if they are already off their +$4k price point, they will adjust more. Take out that goofy mount (if it the same one I've seen) and maybe they can drop another two bills off the price. Pretty soon you are sub $3K. Look at Remmy ACR prices since they were introduced.
</div></div>

That's still more expensive than the S&B and Premier. To create any broader interest Leupold would have to be sub $2k.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FromMyColdDeadHa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Free shipping via the Easter Bunny.

I see TMR version 1-8s for $3300 on this forum and in Google searches, so I'm sure that if they are already off their +$4k price point, they will adjust more. Take out that goofy mount (if it the same one I've seen) and maybe they can drop another two bills off the price. Pretty soon you are sub $3K. Look at Remmy ACR prices since they were introduced.
</div></div>

That's still more expensive than the S&B and Premier. To create any broader interest the Leupold would have to be sub $2k. </div></div>


Uhm, do you see an Easter Bunny right now? Is he talking to you? Why stop there, how about sub $1k? It sounds like if Leupold wanted they could crank up and spit these things out with production efficiencies that they other manufacturers dream off. Sure, they could suck the air out of the room for this kind of scope, but sub $2k seems a bit much to hope for.

 

[sititunga]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

Leupold manufacturer the same number of scopes (this is according to LowLight's visit) as Zeiss, S&B, Swarovski and Premier make in a whole year combined in just 8 weeks. By definition this makes them a mass volume manufacturer who should be enjoying huge economies of scale.

I just can't understand the love-in you guys seem to be having with Leupold.

 

[dmg308]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Leupold manufacturer the same number of scopes (this is according to LowLight's visit) as Zeiss, S&B, Swarovski and Premier make in a whole year combined in just 8 weeks. By definition this makes them a mass volume manufacturer who should be enjoying huge economies of scale.

I just can't understand the love-in you guys seem to be having with Leupold. </div></div>

Kinda the same we are about you trying to slam them every chance you get.You hate Leupold with every ounce of your being we get it.

 

[sititunga]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

I don't hate them at all, I actually own a number of their scopes. I'm just being critical of their recent pricing decisions given that they are not a premium scope maker.

 

[lwrkeysfisher]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mjh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone know why these scopes are being sold to the military through private vendors. </div></div>

Sounds a bit fishy, you would think you would get the best bang by cutting out any middlemen by going to the manufacturer directly. </div></div>
Simple explanation...
It is a lot quicker and easier to use the "Simplified Acquisition System" which for all intents and purposes requires you to use small business and preferred categories. (Women owned, Veteran Owned, etc.)
Check out the Small Business Administration's web site for more info. http://www.sba.gov/

The reason for this is simple...
Spending tax payer dollars on the broadest amount of tax payers is good for the economy.
(This is not a new program by the way.)
It is often more expensive than a direct purchasing contract, but that is the law...
</div></div>

It's all about NIB, NISH, excess property, and when they don't have it JWOD... Only then can you go outside.

There is a reason companies like Viking tactics are 99% women owned.

BTW, the mil pricing is very much in alignment with the manufacturers mentioned above. If and when that pricing will become available to the general public; well, we'll see.

 

[smokshwn]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Leupold manufacturer the same number of scopes (this is according to LowLight's visit) as Zeiss, S&B, Swarovski and Premier make in a whole year combined in just 8 weeks. By definition this makes them a mass volume manufacturer who should be enjoying huge economies of scale.

I just can't understand the love-in you guys seem to be having with Leupold. </div></div>

Logic evades you. You need to read Frank's review again. BY DEFINITION with production seven times higher than other companies, there is also an commensurate increase in cost. As described by Frank, the process Leupold uses to achieve that production is no small endeavor. Leupold most assuredly incurs higher costs due to more complex systems, # of employees, infrastructure, multi line marketing, capital costs, product liability, etc etc etc that allow for that productivity. My guess is many product lines offered by Leupold operate at much smaller margins than the competition.

With respect to the accusation of being fan boys, you have a very difficult time paying attention. One of the key reasons for Frank's visit to Leupold was to discuss many of the shortcomings this very community has been expressing for quite some time.

 

[sititunga]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Logic evades you. You need to read Frank's review again. BY DEFINITION with production seven times higher than other companies, there is also an commensurate increase in cost. As described by Frank, the process Leupold uses to achieve that production is no small endeavor. Leupold most assuredly incurs higher costs due to more complex systems, # of employees, infrastructure, multi line marketing, capital costs, product liability, etc etc etc that allow for that productivity. My guess is many product lines offered by Leupold operate at much smaller margins than the competition.
</div></div>

I definitely don't buy this. Come on their production levels are 7 times higher than all the highend companies manufacture and you're telling me they aren't enjoying any economies. If this is the case something is very wrong and they need to pull in a management consultancy firm to sort things out.

 

[lwrkeysfisher]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

Given the amount of Leupold bashing done here, I know it is hard to fathom, but maybe Leupold thinks it has a premium product in both its Mark 4 line and the new Mark 8 scope. I mean a lot of people buy Leupold scopes at current pricing, so why should it charge less? That defies all economic sense.

Second, with regard to the the new Mark 8, developing new products costs money and effective businesses allocate some or most of those investment costs based upon sales forecasts. When variable costs are already high on a premium product and sales volume is estimated to be low you have to charge a higher premium to recover those fixed costs. So remember, S&B already had flash dot technology whereas it's all new for Leupold--and new things cost money. Every company does this, that is why Iphones drop in price afters six months or so, also why name brand name medication costs more than generic. Once you recoup your investment then all you need to cover are your operating and variable costs, at this point you can change pricing strategy. The approach is different when variable costs are low--then you have to focus on volume.

My point is Leupold and its tactical product line has clear faults; however, its market strategy in pricing the new Mark 8's isn't one of them. Leupold is doing what any established and prudent business does, and it seems like they are doing it well to me.

If you don't like the product for the price, don't buy it. If Leupold isn't getting the sales numbers it needs it'll change course. My guess is that they are selling plenty or the price would be fall.

 

[jasonk]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm just being critical of their recent pricing decisions given that they are not a premium scope maker.</div></div>

So you don't think that a company that's over 100 years old and that can produce nearly a half million scopes a year couldn't make the decision to become a premium scope maker and focus their efforts enough to be one?

Having had the luxury to recently walk the floors of the Leupold production floor I can tell you that I believe with all my being that they can produce a premium scope. There is an area devoted to the production of tactical scopes and I can tell you that the same guys that assemble the VXI's and the Redfield's aren't the same guys that assemble the Mark 8's. Leupold has the experience and the capital to do about anything they want in the optics world. They've bet a lot of time and money on the Mark 8 and their revemped Tactical Division, so I'm guessing that they are going to do it right.

 

[sititunga]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lwrkeysfisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Given the amount of Leupold bashing done here, I know it is hard to fathom, but maybe Leupold thinks it has a premium product in both its Mark 4 line and the new Mark 8 scope. I mean a lot of people buy Leupold scopes at current pricing, so why should it charge less? That defies all economic sense.

Second, with regard to the the new Mark 8, developing new products costs money, and effective businesses allocate some or most of those investment costs based upon sales forecasts. When variable costs are already high on a premium product and sales volume is estimated to be low you have to charge a higher premium to recover those fixed costs. So remember, S&B already had flash dot technology whereas it's all new for Leupold--and new things cost money. Every company does this, that is why Iphones drop in price afters six months or so, also why name brand name medication costs more than generic. Once you recoup your investment then all you need to cover are your operating and variable costs, at this point you can change pricing strategy. The approach is different when variable costs are low--then you have to focus on volume.

My point is Leupold and its tactical product line has clear faults; however, its market strategy in pricing the new Mark 8's isn't one of them. Leupold is doing what any established and prudent business does, and it seems like they are doing it well to me.

If you don't like the product for the price, don't buy it. If Leupold isn't getting the sales numbers it needs it'll change course. My guess is that they are selling plenty or the price would be fall. </div></div>

I'm sure Leupold believe they build a great product - I do too, but the quality is not the same as the highend makers. There are weekly threads that appear on this forum and other asking the Leupold vs. NightForce question and without a doubt the overwhelming majority of all responders vote NightForce as the way better optic. The point of my argument is that Leupold seem to have a huge credibility issue, that's not just the way I feel but it is obviously shared by a very large number of other people who voice their opinions on this topic. For Leupold to suddenly come out with a new line of scopes and then price these at prices well above the highly respected highend scope makers when they clearly haven't dealt with the credibility issues that exist (as documented on an almost daily basis on these forums) defies any kind of marketing logic IMO.

Would you by a Ford? Yes. Would you buy a Ford if they came out with a state of art supercar and priced it 30% more than the most expensive Ferrari? Definitely not.

 

[PLeighton]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

The funny thing is at most of the competitions I go to, it is pretty common to see 30-40% of the competitors using Leupold Mark 4 Optics.
There are many users that never voice their opinion or experiences with the product on these forums due to the inevitable mob like dog pile that typically ensues.

I don't think it is a stretch to say that close to half of the users on this forum just follow along with whatever the more experienced user’s commentary is.
They frequently parrot them as if they have had the same experiences when more often than not they are casual users at best.

It could be a good PHD paper for someone working in the sociology field though.

 

[lwrkeysfisher]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

Leupold has a credibility issue with a small but vocal group of members on a forum, most of whom prefer a different brand for whatever reason (some people still won't own a Ford because of the Pinto). So the debate is one of value, or Ford F250 vs Chevy 2500 not Ford vs Ferrari. Leupold doesn't have a credibility issue in the broad sense though, and if you look around here on the forum you'll find lots of folks who are perfectly happy with their Leupold optics and would buy another without hesitation--matching turrets and reticles or not. When I visit most of my local gun stores and ask about optics, the most recommended "top-of-the-line" brand is Leupold. My point is we are the higher end users, which is why we continually seek advice and improvement, we exist in the far end of the tail on the bell curve and to pretend we don't is foolish. Therefore, our opinion should not be considered the opinion of the general population. I'm not saying that Leupold doesn't have a few issues to overcome, but I think to consider them something other than a top tier optics manufacturer is foolish. I agree the current Mark 4 line does not compete with the S&M PMII line; however, it competes well against other manufactures who use Japanese glass and even a few that use Schott. Given the capabilities and quality of the Mark 8, I think the ball is in S&B's court to prove their product is better for less (if they can get it to market). Either way the civilian sales volume for both scopes will be low, but that's what happens when you start catering to the long tail.

 

[dmg308]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The funny thing is at most of the competitions I go to, it is pretty common to see 30-40% of the competitors using Leupold Mark 4 Optics.
There are many users that never voice their opinion or experiences with the product on these forums due to the inevitable mob like dog pile that typically ensues.

I don't think it is a stretch to say that close to half of the users on this forum just follow along with whatever the more experienced user’s commentary is.
They frequently parrot them as if they have had the same experiences when more often than not they are casual users at best.

It could be a good PHD paper for someone working in the sociology field though.
</div></div>

Now there's a big heaping mouthful of truth.

 

[sititunga]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The funny thing is at most of the competitions I go to, it is pretty common to see 30-40% of the competitors using Leupold Mark 4 Optics.</div></div>

Very true but these people are using $1000-$1500 Mk4s. However, it's the people who have already upgraded to NF, S&B, Zeiss and Premier, that Leupold are hoping to target with their new uber expensive scope line that they are going to have a tough time trying to convince - not only to make the switch from these other brands that they have invested in financially and emotionally, but also to pay a premium of 30% in some cases. Once people become brand loyal they are quite difficult to move.

 

[lwrkeysfisher]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The funny thing is at most of the competitions I go to, it is pretty common to see 30-40% of the competitors using Leupold Mark 4 Optics.</div></div>

Very true but these people are using $1000-$1500 Mk4s. However, it's the people who have already upgraded to NF, S&B, Zeiss and Premier, that Leupold are hoping to target with their new uber expensive scope line that they are going to have a tough time trying to convince - not only to make the switch from these other brands that they have invested in financially and emotionally, but also to pay a premium of 30% in some cases. Once people become brand loyal they are quite difficult to move.

</div></div>

Why would this be Leupold's target Market? It's target market is the U.S. Military and civilians/law enforcement looking for DMR style optics that can be used for CQB as well. So why spend money on trying to switch people with brand preferences, which is very expensive, when your product is the only one available in the market segment. As a consumer you can sit on your hands and wait for someone else to bring a [better?] product to market or you can [questionably] spend a few dollars more and have it now.

As for the Mark 4 with the child safety knobs, this is a high end optic designed to compete with the S&B 3-12 PMII for military contracts, any they sell to civilians and LE are just a bonus. I forgot to add that Leupold won the army contract, so something must of justified the price tag...

Just for clarity, a couple dozen people who are not in the target segment (they would be switchers not new market entrants) that complain about Leupold products are not going to change the reality here. The military have and will continue to buy these optics, and once AAR's come back from the field we'll find out whether they are worth the MSRP or more or less. Also once other competitors enter the market and people compare them side-by-side we'll find out which is better and worth a premium over the other, until then the Leupold Mark 8 is the only game in town and if you want to play you have to pay.

I know it is hard to accept that some companies produce things without thinking about the price tag, but it happens a lot and it is often where real breakthroughs in technology happen. Look at all the bitching and complaining about the ACR's price tag, funny thing is my local gun stores can't seem to keep them in stock---and testing has proven they are not the best product on the market.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Logic evades you. You need to read Frank's review again. BY DEFINITION with production seven times higher than other companies, there is also an commensurate increase in cost. As described by Frank, the process Leupold uses to achieve that production is no small endeavor. Leupold most assuredly incurs higher costs due to more complex systems, # of employees, infrastructure, multi line marketing, capital costs, product liability, etc etc etc that allow for that productivity. My guess is many product lines offered by Leupold operate at much smaller margins than the competition.

With respect to the accusation of being fan boys, you have a very difficult time paying attention. One of the key reasons for Frank's visit to Leupold was to discuss many of the shortcomings this very community has been expressing for quite some time.

</div></div>

This is a scope forum, and we don't want to get into a macroeconomics or business strategy discussion, but your post is full of fail and I couldn't leave it alone in good conscience. With out getting into specifics, if what you said were true, everyone would work for themselves and there would be no companies since adding people just adds costs. While a company may not always be efficient due to management reasons or structural resource issues, people working together, with specialization of tasks and mass production is inherently more efficient. If it weren't, companies wouldn't grow, they would bud off new companies. In simple terms, the more you make, the larger the number of units you can spread costs over. So as long as you are adding people and capabilities that add value faster than you add costs, you make more money. You can be stupid and add people or costs that add no value and just add costs, but that is a management problem, not structural problem.

 

[sititunga]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lwrkeysfisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why would this be Leupold's target Market? It's target market is the U.S. Military and civilians/law enforcement looking for DMR style optics that can be used for CQB as well. So why spend money on trying to switch people with brand preferences, which is very expensive, when your product is the only one available in the market segment. As a consumer you can sit on your hands and wait for someone else to bring a [better?] product to market or you can [questionably] spend a few dollars more and have it now.

As for the Mark 4 with the child safety knobs, this is a high end optic designed to compete with the S&B 3-12 PMII for military contracts, any they sell to civilians and LE are just a bonus. I forgot to add that Leupold won the army contract, so something must of justified the price tag...

Just for clarity, a couple dozen people who are not in the target segment (they would be switchers not new market entrants) that complain about Leupold products are not going to change the reality here. The military have and will continue to buy these optics, and once AAR's come back from the field we'll find out whether they are worth the MSRP or more or less. Also once other competitors enter the market and people compare them side-by-side we'll find out which is better and worth a premium over the other, until then the Leupold Mark 8 is the only game in town and if you want to play you have to pay.

I know it is hard to accept that some companies produce things without thinking about the price tag, but it happens a lot and it is often where real breakthroughs in technology happen. Look at all the bitching and complaining about the ACR's price tag, funny thing is my local gun stores can't seem to keep them in stock---and testing has proven they are not the best product on the market. </div></div>

I think we can respectfully agree to disagree on this, I've had my say.

 

[smokshwn]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FromMyColdDeadHa</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Logic evades you. You need to read Frank's review again. BY DEFINITION with production seven times higher than other companies, there is also an commensurate increase in cost. As described by Frank, the process Leupold uses to achieve that production is no small endeavor. Leupold most assuredly incurs higher costs due to more complex systems, # of employees, infrastructure, multi line marketing, capital costs, product liability, etc etc etc that allow for that productivity. My guess is many product lines offered by Leupold operate at much smaller margins than the competition.

With respect to the accusation of being fan boys, you have a very difficult time paying attention. One of the key reasons for Frank's visit to Leupold was to discuss many of the shortcomings this very community has been expressing for quite some time.

</div></div>

This is a scope forum, and we don't want to get into a macroeconomics or business strategy discussion, but your post is full of fail and I couldn't leave it alone in good conscience. With out getting into specifics, if what you said were true, everyone would work for themselves and there would be no companies since adding people just adds costs. While a company may not always be efficient due to management reasons or structural resource issues, people working together, with specialization of tasks and mass production is inherently more efficient. If it weren't, companies wouldn't grow, they would bud off new companies. In simple terms, the more you make, the larger the number of units you can spread costs over. So as long as you are adding people and capabilities that add value faster than you add costs, you make more money. You can be stupid and add people or costs that add no value and just add costs, but that is a management problem, not structural problem. </div></div>

The post I was replying to was simplistic in stating that due to Leupold's size and production they should price to his whim.

My point was to simply express "you have to spend money to make money" .

I agree 100% with your point, when done correctly, growth results in more money.

However, as a person of good conscience, I am sure you can also agree that given the infinite variables involved, separating management and structural costs/difficulties is not nearly as black and white as you intimate. Especially, at the scale that Leupold operates.

 

[sititunga]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The post I was replying to was simplistic in stating that due to Leupold's size and production they should price to his whim.
</div></div>

I wasn't suggesting Leupold could price at whim, I was merely stating the obvious that given the sheer scale of their production (500,000 scopes per annum) that they should be able to achieve substantial economies of scale. If for some reason they are not, and their unit costs are no different to the very much smaller high-end manufacturers, then there is obviously something very inefficient with the systems and processes they employ. The point I was making is simplistic in that it's covered off in Economics 101.

 

[smokshwn]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The post I was replying to was simplistic in stating that due to Leupold's size and production they should price to his whim.
</div></div>

I wasn't suggesting Leupold could price at whim, I was merely stating the obvious that given the sheer scale of their production (500,000 scopes per annum) that they should be able to achieve substantial economies of scale. If for some reason they are not, and their unit costs are no different to the very much smaller high-end manufacturers, then there is obviously something very inefficient with the systems and processes they employ. The point I was making is simplistic in that it's covered off in Economics 101. </div></div>

I was also stating the obvious, that although there are many areas where Leupold surely receives the advantages of scale they are also commensurate costs that smaller manufacturers may not have at all. To say their products are universally overpriced I feel is inaccurate. By and large Leupolds prices are competitive on like products (without getting into pissing matches over preference).

The problem comes when you are trying to compare apples and oranges as the Mark 8 is not simply another scope in the lineup. The Mark 8 is likely the most costly and complex optic Leupold has designed, marketed, and produced to date. So to assume that the current pricing is not as equally competitive as there other products is impossible. The $ price may very well reflect all the economies of scale as well.

To date Leupold has clearly beaten the competition, not only on the contract but also in the civilian/LE marketplace as the competition has not even delivered a like product to market. This adds to its perceived value.

These points you choose to ignore are simplistic, in that they are also Economics 101.

 

[sititunga]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem comes when you are trying to compare apples and oranges as the Mark 8 is not simply another scope in the lineup. The Mark 8 is likely the most costly and complex optic Leupold has designed, marketed, and produced to date. So to assume that the current pricing is not as equally competitive as there other products is impossible. The $ price may very well reflect all the economies of scale as well.</div></div>

So I guess what you are saying is that the stella prices they are now asking for their new Mark 4 line ($2800 - $3300 depending on model) employ this new over-the-top technology that has catapulted the quality of their scopes over the likes of S&B and Hensoldt.

 

[Voyagertwelve]

Re: Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS

I messed around with one of these for a couple of days and while it would be an awesome scope for the 3-gun game, I could never justify the price.