Rifle Scopes Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

Papagallos

Papagallos

Gunny Sergeant
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Nov 5, 2009
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South Texas, United States
#1
Evening,

First off, Merry Christmas!
grin.gif


I decided to mount and level my scope to the AR. Here are the steps that I followed.

1st, Level the AR:
1stLevelRifle.jpg



2nd, Install Badger AR Riser and verify level:
2ndLevelBadgerRiser.jpg



3rd, Install Rings and verify level:
4thLevel.jpg


3rdLevel.jpg


4th, Mount scope and verify level:
FinalLevelScope.jpg


5th, Verify reticle alignment:
ReticleAligned.jpg


And, lastly, install and torque ring caps.

What I found to be odd was that although the scope was leveled, the reticle appeared to be leaning towards the left. I had my wife see through the scope and she saw the reticle perfectly leveled. I tried looking through it with my non-dominant left eye and, shockingly, the reticle was perfectly level. I switched back to my strong side, dominant right eye and now the reticle looked leaning to the left again. WTF?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Has anyone else experienced anything like this? The only way that I can see the reticle level is if I install the scope unleveled. I don't get it.

Any thoughts?
 
#3
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jrb572</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Use feeler gauges under the scope if it has a flat bottom or use a plumb line and level the reticle to it. </div></div>

Level the reticle instead of the scope? If I level the reticle according to my right eye, the scope will be off level.
 
#4
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

The reticle may be canted in the scope. Not saying it is. Plus I don't trust leveling off the turret. If it has a flat bottom use feeler gauges. Im not a 100% sure maybe someone else will say for positive. But as long as the reticle it plumb the scope should track correctly.
 
#6
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

Verify the gun/base is level and then use feeler gauges under the bottom of the turret housing. That's a NF scope so it has a flat base on the bottom side. This method works and works well. It will take the "guess" out of it whether it's level or not. After you do this (correctly) and the recticle still looks canted, you can be sure then that it's the shooter and not the recticle.
 
#8
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trevor300wsm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Verify the gun/base is level and then use feeler gauges under the bottom of the turret housing. That's a NF scope so it has a flat base on the bottom side. This method works and works well. It will take the "guess" out of it whether it's level or not. After you do this (correctly) and the recticle still looks canted, you can be sure then that it's the shooter and not the recticle. </div></div>

I don't have feeler gauges.
frown.gif
 
#10
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sandbogg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try the plumb bob method. I have been using it for years and it works great on my rifles.

BTW I really like your level! </div></div>

I just did, and the reticle looks level. It must be my right eye that is jacked up. I need to see an ophthalmologist.
 
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#11
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

Plumb bob string should help confirm. FWIW, many people that look through my scopes think the reticles are tilted to the left. (I used to, but got accustomed to the apparent deception.) Every method confirms the reticles are right, including dialing up for long distance. Don't let your eyes fool you...
 
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#13
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jmsvickers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is it possible that you are canting your self or the rifle when you look through it? just a thought </div></div>

Not at all. The rifle was leveled and locked in place on the Tipton gun vise through out the entire procedure.
 
#14
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wishooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I don't have feeler gauges.
frown.gif
</div></div>

[/quote]A deck of cards will work well too. [/quote]

Well, well, I had not thought about that. Let me go fetch my KEM cards.
grin.gif
 
#15
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

I have the same issue. I level the scope by leveling the rifle then the scope with a bubble level. I also use the feeler gage and confirm all with a plum line, with all that the reticle looks like it is canted left. When I switch to my left eye it looks straight up and down. That confirmed that it was me and it is just something that I will have to get use to. I hear that some shooters purposely put a cant in their scope to correct canting the rifle while shooting but I don't understand that concept.
 
#16
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

I have the same problem, level gun level base level reticle but when i shoulder the gun the reticle looks canted to my eye. I have always questioned my form but maybe it is my astigmatism? When I mount a scope i look through the scope from several feet away to confirm the reticle is straight instead of shouldering it.
 
#17
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

I leveled my scope exactly as you did and verified it with feeler gauges. When I looked through the scope my reticle still seems canted to the left
smirk.gif
but there seems to be no bad effects. It's probably my eyes just tricking me
 
#18
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

Eliminate step three, level the riser, put the rings on and torque, don't level, put the scope in rings, level scope, torgue, keep watching so you don't rotate it a little.
Check the rail with the level, then the scope.

The feeler gauge method sounds like the ticket, will try it some time.

I use two levels when I do it your way, one on the rail, one on scope turret. But my two levels are not as cool as that cute little greenlee you have!
How many cocktails had you consumed?
 
#19
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jrb572</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reticle may be canted in the scope. Not saying it is. Plus I don't trust leveling off the turret. If it has a flat bottom use feeler gauges. Im not a 100% sure maybe someone else will say for positive. But as long as the reticle it plumb the scope should track correctly. </div></div>

Verify the erector assembly is level, NOT the reticle. The reticle moves in relation to the erector assembly. If you level the scope using the reticle for reference, and the reticle isn't plumb, when you move the verticle turret the reticle won't move straight up. It will move up and over in whichever direction you've canted the scope. BAD for LR accuracy.

Pull the vertical adjustment cap off and level the scope with that. If the reticle isn't plumb to your satisfaction, send it back, switch brands, whatever. For what its worth, my NF F1's reticle is perfectly plumb and its my understanding this is verified before they leave the factory.

Rich
 
#20
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TacticalHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have the same issue. I level the scope by leveling the rifle then the scope with a bubble level. I also use the feeler gage and confirm all with a plum line, with all that the reticle looks like it is canted left. When I switch to my left eye it looks straight up and down. That confirmed that it was me and it is just something that I will have to get use to. I hear that some shooters purposely put a cant in their scope to correct canting the rifle while shooting but I don't understand that concept. </div></div>

We need an expert to answer this one. Anyone?
 
#21
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jrb572</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reticle may be canted in the scope. Not saying it is. Plus I don't trust leveling off the turret. If it has a flat bottom use feeler gauges. Im not a 100% sure maybe someone else will say for positive. But as long as the reticle it plumb the scope should track correctly. </div></div>

Verify the erector assembly is level, NOT the reticle. The reticle moves in relation to the erector assembly. If you level the scope using the reticle for reference, and the reticle isn't plumb, when you move the verticle turret the reticle won't move straight up. It will move up and over in whichever direction you've canted the scope. BAD for LR accuracy.

Pull the vertical adjustment cap off and level the scope with that. If the reticle isn't plumb to your satisfaction, send it back, switch brands, whatever. For what its worth, my NF F1's reticle is perfectly plumb and its my understanding this is verified before they leave the factory.

Rich </div></div>

Genius! I'll try that for sure.
 
#22
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

What you are experiencing is normal. All my scopes are that way. Don't worry about it and rock on.

If you put a mounted level on your rifle you will experience the same phenomenon when you are out shooting.
 
#23
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

Ja, ja , I experienced the same problem , but in my case, the reticle is canted a little to the right . I am lefty , so the optical illusion is reversed .
Using two bubble levels I leveled the rifle until it was perfectly level ,leaving one bubble on the rifle , then the scope on top of the elevation turret with the other bubble level , rotating the scope until both bubbles were exactly leveled and when I look at the reticle it seems very , very slightly canted to the right , but I am convinced that it is just an optical illusion .
 
#24
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

Since you are using a NF scope, the bottom of scope is machined flat from the factory. When NF works on their scopes, everything begins from the flatness under the scope and they work up from there. Your scope might be leveled, but the reticle might be canted. So you level to the reticle, NOT the scope. But with it being a high end NF scopem, I doubt your reticle is canted. Here is a link on how to level your scope. I HIGHLY suggest you check it out..
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2097944
 
#25
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

The most effective way to get every thing level and plumb is to get a rail level. Install it and use your nice little green level to verify that the rail level is accurate. Then use a plumb line to get the reticle level and plumb. While you have the rifle locked in place run the verticle adjustment up and down. The reticle should track the plumb line.

You are going to need a rail level if you are going to be consistant at longrange. Even if you get the reticle plumb in relation to the rifle you will need a reference point to make sure you are not canting the rifle.

The feeler gauge trick works very well getting the scope level in relation to the rifle. You can do it that way then use the plumb line to get the reticle verticle and level. You then can install the rail level while the rifle is still locked in place. Take note of the position of the bubble on the rail level. This will be your reference point to prevent canting. If the rail level is not perfect it may show to be a little off, if this method is used dont worry about it. The rail level is used as a reference point only.

My experience has been that if your set-up is plumb and level it may appear to cant leftward, especially indoors up close looking into light colored walls.
 
#26
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since you are using a NF scope, the bottom of scope is machined flat from the factory. When NF works on their scopes, everything begins from the flatness under the scope and they work up from there. Your scope might be leveled, but the reticle might be canted. So you level to the reticle, NOT the scope. But with it being a high end NF scopem, I doubt your reticle is canted. Here is a link on how to level your scope. I HIGHLY suggest you check it out..
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2097944 </div></div>

If the reticle is canted, which it may not be, you either live with it or switch scopes. If you level the scope off the reticle its going to screw you for any kind of accuracy beyond where you zero the scope.

Crude illustration to help...

Even if the reticle isn't plumb, if the erector is level, it will move up and down in relation to your target. So you can dial dope, hold center, and fire. If you level the scope off the reticle, when you dial elevation it will throw off the point of impact as soon as you move from the zero.

If you don't have a reticle with hashmarks for holdoffs, or even if you do and the cant isn't that bad, you are best off leveling the erector and living with the cant. If its so bad you can't stand it, switch scopes. If you level the scope off the reticle you will have to hold off for everything to avoid throwing off the point of aim. 4-5 mils won't get you to 1000 holding over.

reticle.jpg
 
#27
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

Shooters,

I compiled all the recommendations and put them to work. I just remounted the scope and the reticle shift has been solved.

Using a deck of cards as feeler gauges, I torqued the ring caps and made sure that I didn't throw the scope out of level. I double checked everything and this time the scope and reticle were leveled. Go figure! Once done, I looked out the door towards the edge of a building and the reticle was perfectly lined up. It worked great. Problem solved. Thank you for your input.

DeckofCardsandTurretHousing2.jpg


DeckofCardsandTurretHousing.jpg


DeckofCardsandTurretHousing3.jpg
 
#31
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many in lbs did you torque your scope rings too? I started a thread here, and have not gotten a real answer yet. Im going to call NF up tomorrow and hopefully get the right answer..

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2988061</div></div>

didn't you post a picture of your manual, what more do you need?
 
#32
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

Obviously you didnt read the first paragraph,
"piece of paper in the NF Ring box said to torque the ring cap screws to 15in lbs. Now in the manual that came with the NF Scope, it says to torque the ring cap screws to 25in lbs."

So as to "what more do I need", Im looking for the correct answer. Obviously there is a misprint in either the Scope manual or small pieces of paper NF is including in their ring boxes. Thats why I said I was calling NF tomorrow.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lazy21</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many in lbs did you torque your scope rings too? I started a thread here, and have not gotten a real answer yet. Im going to call NF up tomorrow and hopefully get the right answer..

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2988061</div></div>

didn't you post a picture of your manual, what more do you need? </div></div>
 
#33
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

I like to take a 48' carpenters level to the range.

Put up a large blank sheet of paper at 100yds. Scribe a verticle line using the level.

Verify your rifles action is level on the bench and align the scopes reticle with the scribed line.

Then shoot up the line cranking in 10min of elevation per shot.

Each sucessive shot should track up the line.

I haven't had the best of luck leveling off of scope turrets. Maybe I should spend more $$ on them...
 
#34
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many in lbs did you torque your scope rings too? I started a thread here, and have not gotten a real answer yet. Im going to call NF up tomorrow and hopefully get the right answer..

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2988061 </div></div>

15in/lbs for aluminum rings, 25in/lbs for steel. I think. I torqued my NF Steel rings at 25in/lbs.
 
#36
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: G38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For what its worth, have no fear with what 00bullitt told you - he "is well acquainted" with NF products. </div></div>

Who?
 
#37
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I think it's wise for anyone not named Lowlight to do their damndest to mount their scopes level.</div></div>

What an F'ing tool... you don't know a friggin thing about what I do to level my rifles or scopes.

I'm the one who promoted the "feeler gauge" method and I absolutely said to back it up with a look using a plumb line.

I level my scopes, and I make sure they track level vertically, what I don't do use a "level" after that, because my eye can tell if I am level or not based on how I hold the rifle and I think I have proven on more than one occasion I can consistently hold and shoot to distance without the use of the level -- far beyond the range of those who proclaim to need it.

if you find you need a secondary level to hold your rifle straight, more power too you, but don't think you're gonna insult me in the process because I don't need a level nor are you gonna spread some bullshit I don't level my scopes.

Merry Christmas...
 
#40
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

Doesn't change the fact you don't understand the difference between leveling something to the rifle cant versus canting after the fact.

you're ignorance is shining through...

How does a TUBB Rifle work with it's extreme cant ? Explain that... how, because you level before the fact not after. How does a rifle with an Offset scope work ? and these are two examples in the extreme.

YOU CLEARLY WROTE:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I think it's wise for anyone not named Lowlight to do their damndest to mount their scopes level.</div></div>


and MY QUOTE ABOVE CLEARLY STATES:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Scope level is important,</span> the rifle should be addressed consistently, which may not necessarily be perfectly straight up and down. </div></div>

There is a difference you don't get.
 
#41
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

I met a friend at a sniper competition who showed me the feeler gauge method- I thought it looked too simple for a second, but it's pretty much brilliant in that it makes a PITA task simple.

The base is square. If the optic isn't junk and has a square surface under the elevation turret, it should all work out.
 
#42
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Doesn't change the fact you don't understand the difference between leveling something to the rifle cant versus canting after the fact.

you're ignorance is shining through...

How does a TUBB Rifle work with it's extreme cant ? Explain that... how, because you level before the fact not after. How does a rifle with an Offset scope work ? and these are two examples in the extreme.

YOU CLEARLY WROTE:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I think it's wise for anyone not named Lowlight to do their damndest to mount their scopes level.</div></div>


and MY QUOTE ABOVE CLEARLY STATES:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Scope level is important,</span> the rifle should be addressed consistently, which may not necessarily be perfectly straight up and down. </div></div>

There is a difference you don't get. </div></div>

My apologies to all for being ignorant. Merry Christmas and good luck with your scope leveling.
 
#43
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

It's how people end up "Canting" the rifle and scope when they are actually shooting after the fact. They level the rifle straight, and then they level the scope straight to the rifle, which is slightly different from leveling the scope alone to the fall of gravity.

So, when they shoot, the comfortable position is to slightly cant the rifle in the shoulder pocket which then slightly cants the scope taking it off level after you go through the process of leveling everything.

This natural act to cant the rifle for comfort is what cants the scopes and causes a downrange effect.

Now, if you addressed the rifle without a scope and got a comfortable position behind it, then leveled to the ground based on that cant, (ala TUBB) you then mount the scope and level it to the fall of gravity so it tracks vertical you remove the issue of canting the rifle and scope together after the fact. The reason to add a level, especially with a rifle leveled square like above that has a scope leveled to the rifle, is to make sure you avoid the pitfall of canting the rifle when you are actually shooting it.

My post you referenced was to say, I am finding the very small amount of cant I use for comfort is better left in place and the scope leveled after to the ground so I avoid the problems people see of having a SQUARE rifle and CANTED hold.

If you add a stock with a separate adjustment for cant, you can level the rifle straight and adjust the butt plate for the shoulder pocket. This method allows you to level everything straight.
 
#44
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I met a friend at a sniper competition who showed me the feeler gauge method- I thought it looked too simple for a second, but it's pretty much brilliant in that it makes a PITA task simple.

The base is square. If the optic isn't junk and has a square surface under the elevation turret, it should all work out. </div></div>

You would think so. But I have had a couple of hide members get confused on how it works. I just tell them to use a spirit level and a plumb bob. It's simpiler in their heads to wrap their heads around.
 
#46
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

Tough to level off the caps of some scopes.

I always try to verify by sighting a tall, plumb vertical object-like perhaps a corner of a building or wall- leveling the rifle and checking for alignment of the vertical crosshair to the object.
 
#47
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I met a friend at a sniper competition who showed me the feeler gauge method- I thought it looked too simple for a second, but it's pretty much brilliant in that it makes a PITA task simple.

The base is square. If the optic isn't junk and has a square surface under the elevation turret, it should all work out. </div></div>

You would think so. But I have had a couple of hide members get confused on how it works. I just tell them to use a spirit level and a plumb bob. It's simpiler in their heads to wrap their heads around.</div></div>

I had a hard time grasping this at first because it's so damn simple that I was over thinking it.
 
#49
Re: Leveling a Scope.....WTF?!!!!!!!

Called NF up, and they are out of the office until 1/2/2012. I sent them a email, and got an out of office response, no biggie.. But.............. I hope everyones NF scope is working, because their email said:
" Our current lead time is estimated at 24 weeks and is
subject to change with new military orders
-We anticipate that our lead times will not fall below
20 weeks through May of 2012"

WOW, 6 months!!


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many in lbs did you torque your scope rings too? I started a thread here, and have not gotten a real answer yet. Im going to call NF up tomorrow and hopefully get the right answer..

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2988061 </div></div>
 
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