Ok heres my set up. Rem 700 sps tac in aics 1.5 , badger base (beeded) badger rings lapped. Got everything set up to mount scope but here is my question. The forend of the aics, the badger rail and the bolt rails in the action are not level with each other. Which one do i want the crosshairs level with? My thinking is the forend to cut down on cant for long range shooting. What does the hide have to say?
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Rifle Scopes leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
- Thread starter wcmesa
- Start date
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
I tried the feeler guage method at first and the scope ended up level with the rail but it was off with the chasis and the bolt rails in the action. I guess my main concern is what is grief am I gonna have with dialing in dope at longer ranges.
I tried the feeler guage method at first and the scope ended up level with the rail but it was off with the chasis and the bolt rails in the action. I guess my main concern is what is grief am I gonna have with dialing in dope at longer ranges.
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
Get the fatwrench level, it sits in your bolt raceways I believe. That's how Im gonna square mine up at least.
Get the fatwrench level, it sits in your bolt raceways I believe. That's how Im gonna square mine up at least.
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
Yeah I got the wheeler 30 mm kit from midway. I wasn't to impressed with the levels it came with.
Yeah I got the wheeler 30 mm kit from midway. I wasn't to impressed with the levels it came with.
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LEVEL the scope with the feeler gauges.
if the scope appears not level in the chassis, the chassis or your action is the problem.</div></div>
This doesn't make any sense to me. if I level the scope with the rail which will be square and shoulder the rifle which has a cant (for what ever reason) the scope will appear to be canted. If you can't fix the rifle or it is a physical limitation
Use the feeler gauge technique to get you close but if you find the rifle is off put up some string or 550 cord up at the farthest distance you have available using it as a plumb bob. Set the rifle up as you would normally and adjust the scope so that the crosshairs are in line with the string.
best of luck
Trevor
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LEVEL the scope with the feeler gauges.
if the scope appears not level in the chassis, the chassis or your action is the problem.</div></div>
This doesn't make any sense to me. if I level the scope with the rail which will be square and shoulder the rifle which has a cant (for what ever reason) the scope will appear to be canted. If you can't fix the rifle or it is a physical limitation
Use the feeler gauge technique to get you close but if you find the rifle is off put up some string or 550 cord up at the farthest distance you have available using it as a plumb bob. Set the rifle up as you would normally and adjust the scope so that the crosshairs are in line with the string.
best of luck
Trevor
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trevor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This doesn't make any sense to me. </div></div>
Thats because you don't know how a scopes internals work.
Just because you level the reticle, doesn't mean the erector assembly is leveled. If you level off the flat on the bottom of the scope, then the turrets most likely will be level as well. This means the scope will track true when you run the turrets, regardless of the reticle being leveled. Now, if your reticle is not leveled with the turrets, then your holds will be off, but at least your x-hair will move correctly when you run the turret.
Of course this is all reliant upon the scope being manufactured correctly. So, in a nutshell, level off the scope's flat, then if your reticle is canted too much, or the turrets don't track correctly, send it in for repair. I'd recommend mounting it a couple times to be sure though.
For those that asked about the feeler gauge method:
Lowlight's Feeler Gauge Method
There is the google cached page of the article from the old site.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trevor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This doesn't make any sense to me. </div></div>
Thats because you don't know how a scopes internals work.
Just because you level the reticle, doesn't mean the erector assembly is leveled. If you level off the flat on the bottom of the scope, then the turrets most likely will be level as well. This means the scope will track true when you run the turrets, regardless of the reticle being leveled. Now, if your reticle is not leveled with the turrets, then your holds will be off, but at least your x-hair will move correctly when you run the turret.
Of course this is all reliant upon the scope being manufactured correctly. So, in a nutshell, level off the scope's flat, then if your reticle is canted too much, or the turrets don't track correctly, send it in for repair. I'd recommend mounting it a couple times to be sure though.
For those that asked about the feeler gauge method:
Lowlight's Feeler Gauge Method
There is the google cached page of the article from the old site.
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
Let's assume that the reticle is level with the turrets. Leveling the scope using feeler gauges will still result in a scope that's canted to the barrel if the rail is not level with the barrel. I'd set the rifle up so it's level the way you are going to shoot it. Then use the plumb bob method to level the scope on it. Unless you're David Tubbs, that is.
Let's assume that the reticle is level with the turrets. Leveling the scope using feeler gauges will still result in a scope that's canted to the barrel if the rail is not level with the barrel. I'd set the rifle up so it's level the way you are going to shoot it. Then use the plumb bob method to level the scope on it. Unless you're David Tubbs, that is.
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
Yeah, you are right. Lowlight probably doesn't know what he's talking about.
I'm still going to do it the way he does it.
Yeah, you are right. Lowlight probably doesn't know what he's talking about.
I'm still going to do it the way he does it.
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
all my scoped rifles have a canted reticule ...on purpose
all my scoped rifles have a canted reticule ...on purpose
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
After sitting back and thinkin about it the feeler guage method would give u the most accurate allignment between bore center line and optical center. My scopes is a nxs5.5-22 so I'm bankin in the bottom being true
After sitting back and thinkin about it the feeler guage method would give u the most accurate allignment between bore center line and optical center. My scopes is a nxs5.5-22 so I'm bankin in the bottom being true
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: orkan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah, you are right. Lowlight probably doesn't know what he's talking about.
I'm still going to do it the way he does it. </div></div>
FWIW, the last time I leveled a scope I used Lowlight's method. But
1) I had a scope (PH 3-15) that I could be virtually certain has its reticle lined up with the turrets
2) My Seekins base is (as near as I can tell) lined up level with the bore of my Remington.
However, if I understand the O.P. correctly, there is an alignment problem somewhere in between his barrel and the scope base. Unless that is corrected, leveling with feeler gauges will not create a vertical alignment with the barrel:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: orkan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah, you are right. Lowlight probably doesn't know what he's talking about.
I'm still going to do it the way he does it. </div></div>
FWIW, the last time I leveled a scope I used Lowlight's method. But
1) I had a scope (PH 3-15) that I could be virtually certain has its reticle lined up with the turrets
2) My Seekins base is (as near as I can tell) lined up level with the bore of my Remington.
However, if I understand the O.P. correctly, there is an alignment problem somewhere in between his barrel and the scope base. Unless that is corrected, leveling with feeler gauges will not create a vertical alignment with the barrel:
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
I once read Lowlight's comment that using a feeler gauge would do a fine job at leveling a scope. Though I hang on Lowlight's every word, I had just returned from Central Virginia Tactical and Vern used a two piece magnetic leveler. I figured I just paid Vern a fair amount of money to teach me stuff and if he said to use a magnetic leveler, I was going to.
So, after I used the feeler gauge to level the scope, I used the magnetic thingey. Yeeaahh, Lowlight was correct because there was no fixable difference between the two.
I once read Lowlight's comment that using a feeler gauge would do a fine job at leveling a scope. Though I hang on Lowlight's every word, I had just returned from Central Virginia Tactical and Vern used a two piece magnetic leveler. I figured I just paid Vern a fair amount of money to teach me stuff and if he said to use a magnetic leveler, I was going to.
So, after I used the feeler gauge to level the scope, I used the magnetic thingey. Yeeaahh, Lowlight was correct because there was no fixable difference between the two.
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
I have just leveled my scope to reciever at the range. What I did was hung a target with some type of crosshairs and made sure it was level in a secure target stand. Then I leveled my badger base , installed my scope and leveled the horizontal crosshair of the scope with the target. torqued it up fired a group at the cross in the target (after getting zero first). then adjusted the elevation up about 20mins and held same as first group , the group printed on the vertical line about 22" above. I think I got that from one of the scope manufacturer sites I think it was USO.
I have just leveled my scope to reciever at the range. What I did was hung a target with some type of crosshairs and made sure it was level in a secure target stand. Then I leveled my badger base , installed my scope and leveled the horizontal crosshair of the scope with the target. torqued it up fired a group at the cross in the target (after getting zero first). then adjusted the elevation up about 20mins and held same as first group , the group printed on the vertical line about 22" above. I think I got that from one of the scope manufacturer sites I think it was USO.
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
No at first I leveled the scope to the bolt raceway. Nothing seems to be in the same plane of level. The raceway and the badger rail are 1/4 bubble off. Then the forend and rail r off too. I'm gonna relevel it (feeler guage) to the badger rail and try a few things to see how it tracks.
No at first I leveled the scope to the bolt raceway. Nothing seems to be in the same plane of level. The raceway and the badger rail are 1/4 bubble off. Then the forend and rail r off too. I'm gonna relevel it (feeler guage) to the badger rail and try a few things to see how it tracks.
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: orkan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trevor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This doesn't make any sense to me. </div></div>
Thats because you don't know how a scopes internals work.
.</div></div>
I believe azimutha has clarified my descrpition far better then I could with his diagrams.
Thanks
Trevor
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: orkan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trevor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This doesn't make any sense to me. </div></div>
Thats because you don't know how a scopes internals work.
.</div></div>
I believe azimutha has clarified my descrpition far better then I could with his diagrams.
Thanks
Trevor
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
So then you've got a fucked up gun, right? Doesn't mean the feeler gauge doesn't work... it just means you need to true your action and bed your base.
Look, everybody has their method. That is fine. So far, only one that has been mentioned works very easily, under nearly any conditions, and using only 2 tools which you should have in your pack anyway. Feeler gauges, and a torque wrench.
So pick the method that works for you. I know which way I'm doing it.
So then you've got a fucked up gun, right? Doesn't mean the feeler gauge doesn't work... it just means you need to true your action and bed your base.
Look, everybody has their method. That is fine. So far, only one that has been mentioned works very easily, under nearly any conditions, and using only 2 tools which you should have in your pack anyway. Feeler gauges, and a torque wrench.
So pick the method that works for you. I know which way I'm doing it.
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
I do it as easy as possible.
I ignore bolt rails, I don't see that as related to accuracy.
I support the rifle so it sighted at the siding of a nearby house. I level the rifle by comparing the recoil pad screw alignment with a plumb bob, and brace the rifle to hold that level. While it's true the absolute perfect vertical relationship between action and butt plate screws may not be right on, they are nearly always close enough as to be of negligible concern.
I then rotate the scope tube so the horizontal reticle wire is parallel to the house siding. I have installed enough house siding to know the panel lines are trued with a level.
Once it's tight, I recheck the pad screws and horizontal wire to make sure everything stayed true while the screws got tightened.
It's what I use, and so far, it's what I trust; and it doesn't require anything in the way of sophisticated equipment.
Greg
I do it as easy as possible.
I ignore bolt rails, I don't see that as related to accuracy.
I support the rifle so it sighted at the siding of a nearby house. I level the rifle by comparing the recoil pad screw alignment with a plumb bob, and brace the rifle to hold that level. While it's true the absolute perfect vertical relationship between action and butt plate screws may not be right on, they are nearly always close enough as to be of negligible concern.
I then rotate the scope tube so the horizontal reticle wire is parallel to the house siding. I have installed enough house siding to know the panel lines are trued with a level.
Once it's tight, I recheck the pad screws and horizontal wire to make sure everything stayed true while the screws got tightened.
It's what I use, and so far, it's what I trust; and it doesn't require anything in the way of sophisticated equipment.
Greg
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
The feeler gauge method is great, but it depends on everything being square to the action. The only thing you can be 100% sure of is that the turret base is square to the rail. Like I said, you can be virtually certain that any high-quality scope (e.g. Premier, S&B, Hensoldt, USO, Vortex Razor, NF) is going to have the reticle square to the turrets. But there are exceptions. If the mounting holes in the action are offset or some other part was incorrectly made or has warped, then the barrel will not end up square to the reticle.
The feeler gauge method is great, but it depends on everything being square to the action. The only thing you can be 100% sure of is that the turret base is square to the rail. Like I said, you can be virtually certain that any high-quality scope (e.g. Premier, S&B, Hensoldt, USO, Vortex Razor, NF) is going to have the reticle square to the turrets. But there are exceptions. If the mounting holes in the action are offset or some other part was incorrectly made or has warped, then the barrel will not end up square to the reticle.
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: orkan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So then you've got a fucked up gun, right? Doesn't mean the feeler gauge doesn't work... it just means you need to true your action and bed your base.
</div></div>
How is truing an action and bedding a base going to correct mounting holes that were drilled off axis? (Not that its the specific problem here)
I've never had a problem with the feeler gauge method. But then again, I haven't had any actions off that bad where I've had to open the mounting holes up to get things straight.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: orkan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So then you've got a fucked up gun, right? Doesn't mean the feeler gauge doesn't work... it just means you need to true your action and bed your base.
</div></div>
How is truing an action and bedding a base going to correct mounting holes that were drilled off axis? (Not that its the specific problem here)
I've never had a problem with the feeler gauge method. But then again, I haven't had any actions off that bad where I've had to open the mounting holes up to get things straight.
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
I have. They are not common, but they do occur.
Truing the action does not correct for incorrect dimensions on the outside of the action. For example, if the top of the action is a little bit uneven, as some are, the base will be tilted to one side no matter what you do to the inside of the action.
Also, using the screws holding the recoil pad as an index of straightness assumes that the action is bedded squarely in the stock, that the stock is correctly dimensioned, and that the butt is not canted slightly (some are).
I have. They are not common, but they do occur.
Truing the action does not correct for incorrect dimensions on the outside of the action. For example, if the top of the action is a little bit uneven, as some are, the base will be tilted to one side no matter what you do to the inside of the action.
Also, using the screws holding the recoil pad as an index of straightness assumes that the action is bedded squarely in the stock, that the stock is correctly dimensioned, and that the butt is not canted slightly (some are).
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
wow nobody has asked about this yet?
Must be a new "spin" on an old problem.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">all my scoped rifles have a canted reticule ...on purpose </div></div>
wow nobody has asked about this yet?
Must be a new "spin" on an old problem.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">all my scoped rifles have a canted reticule ...on purpose </div></div>
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
Are you running a level on your gun? Like one of the USO bubble levels?
Because if you're not, you have no way to know, in a field condition, if you are CONSISTENTLY holding anything level with anything!
No one can throw a gun up and tell you if the reticule is slightly canted without a true reference to hold the gun true the same way every time.
I use a USO level on my base, then I can go to the range and KNOW my gun is being held in the same plane every time that little bubble is in the center. I don't care if my base is perfect with the center of the bore (within reason), as it doesn't matter, AS LONG AS THE GUN IS ALWAYS HELD IN THE SAME PLANE when I'm shooting.
Then, while my gun is in sandbags, WITH THE GUN LEVEL, I turn my crosshair until it lines up with a plumb bob line at 100 yards. (Greg's method would do the same thing)
Now I know one thing for sure, my vertical crosshair is perpendicular with the level on my gun, and I can repeat that at will, by leveling the bubble level.
BUT.........
Now I know my CROSSHAIR is good with the GUN, but I still don't know if my ELEVATION tracks true with the CROSSHAIR.
So, to check that, first zero the gun at 100 yards, then I draw a 3 ft tall vertical line on a piece of cardboard, with an aiming point at the bottom of the line. Take a long carpenter's level and make sure the line is straight up and down.
Shoot a group at the aiming point at the bottom of the line (with gun level), now turn your elevation knob up 30 MOA (or whatever mils) and shoot another group at the SAME aiming point (again with gun level). The center of the group should hit the line the same as the lower group (this is also a good time to measure and see if your scope is correct on the adjustment markings).
If it doesn't, your reticule is canted with your elevation adjustment. If you use hold overs you have a problem that needs repaired. If you always dial, you can just cant the reticule until you are hitting the line both places and not worry about it.
Are you running a level on your gun? Like one of the USO bubble levels?
Because if you're not, you have no way to know, in a field condition, if you are CONSISTENTLY holding anything level with anything!
No one can throw a gun up and tell you if the reticule is slightly canted without a true reference to hold the gun true the same way every time.
I use a USO level on my base, then I can go to the range and KNOW my gun is being held in the same plane every time that little bubble is in the center. I don't care if my base is perfect with the center of the bore (within reason), as it doesn't matter, AS LONG AS THE GUN IS ALWAYS HELD IN THE SAME PLANE when I'm shooting.
Then, while my gun is in sandbags, WITH THE GUN LEVEL, I turn my crosshair until it lines up with a plumb bob line at 100 yards. (Greg's method would do the same thing)
Now I know one thing for sure, my vertical crosshair is perpendicular with the level on my gun, and I can repeat that at will, by leveling the bubble level.
BUT.........
Now I know my CROSSHAIR is good with the GUN, but I still don't know if my ELEVATION tracks true with the CROSSHAIR.
So, to check that, first zero the gun at 100 yards, then I draw a 3 ft tall vertical line on a piece of cardboard, with an aiming point at the bottom of the line. Take a long carpenter's level and make sure the line is straight up and down.
Shoot a group at the aiming point at the bottom of the line (with gun level), now turn your elevation knob up 30 MOA (or whatever mils) and shoot another group at the SAME aiming point (again with gun level). The center of the group should hit the line the same as the lower group (this is also a good time to measure and see if your scope is correct on the adjustment markings).
If it doesn't, your reticule is canted with your elevation adjustment. If you use hold overs you have a problem that needs repaired. If you always dial, you can just cant the reticule until you are hitting the line both places and not worry about it.
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
Ok remounted my scope using the feeler guages and once again everything is good with the world. After getting everything locked down I put the wheeler bolt raceway level in place and leveled the whole rig up, set the small level on the top of the elev turret and the both read the same. Im gonna take it out this weekend and rezero it and then test it out at 300 and 600 yds and see what happens. Thanks everyone for the input.
Ok remounted my scope using the feeler guages and once again everything is good with the world. After getting everything locked down I put the wheeler bolt raceway level in place and leveled the whole rig up, set the small level on the top of the elev turret and the both read the same. Im gonna take it out this weekend and rezero it and then test it out at 300 and 600 yds and see what happens. Thanks everyone for the input.
Re: leveling crosshairs to reduce cant
The only thing that matters is whether the turrets are level with the ground.
Boltripper says he cants his reticles- I'm betting he naturally cants the rifle, so rather than fight the rifle to get it perfectly upright, he lets the rifle cant a little and tilts the scope the opposite direction so it's level with the ground. When you dial elevation, you want the crosshair to follow the path gravity makes the bullet follow. If you're real super snipery and just that good, you might tilt just a tad to compensate for spin drift, but most who think they need that are fooling themselves.
Use magnetic levelers, or feeler gauges, or (like I do) just step back and make sure the crosshair lines up with the center of the bolt. It don't matter what the rifle is doing, as long as the scope is level when you pull the trigger.
The only thing that matters is whether the turrets are level with the ground.
Boltripper says he cants his reticles- I'm betting he naturally cants the rifle, so rather than fight the rifle to get it perfectly upright, he lets the rifle cant a little and tilts the scope the opposite direction so it's level with the ground. When you dial elevation, you want the crosshair to follow the path gravity makes the bullet follow. If you're real super snipery and just that good, you might tilt just a tad to compensate for spin drift, but most who think they need that are fooling themselves.
Use magnetic levelers, or feeler gauges, or (like I do) just step back and make sure the crosshair lines up with the center of the bolt. It don't matter what the rifle is doing, as long as the scope is level when you pull the trigger.
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