Rifle Scopes Leveling Scope Driving Me Crazy - Gen 2 Razor on 700 5R

TX_Diver

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Minuteman
Feb 15, 2017
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WI
Hey Everyone,

Got the opportunity to go down to a buddies and figure out where I wanted my rings and scope to sit on my new 700 5R.

The levels I'm using are borrowed from a buddy and had been used successfully on my hunting rifle and an AR in the past. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/5...vel-level-level-scope-crosshair-leveling-tool

I did not have a level surface to work from however I was able to use my bipod to get the rifle level (so I thought) and then level the crosshairs on a line I'd hung from a tree about 50 yards away. As noted in a second though there is a likely problem here in that I can't fit the level under the scope due to the clearance between the tube and the rail. This meant I set the scope in the rings, sighted in on the string I had hung, then removed the scope, leveled the rifle, then put the scope back on and leveled the reticle on my hanging line.

I snugged everything up and went home intending to remove each screw individually, add loc tite, then torque them all down once they were all back in. At home I put the rifle on a level table, looked through the scope at a line I hung from the wall, and found the crosshairs to be slightly off.

Where I'm running into problems though is that there is not enough clearance between the scope tube, and the top of my rail to use both bubble levels at the same time.

So at this point I take the scope off and find that with the bipod on a level surface (and both legs fully retracted) the rifle is still not level. I take this to mean that one bipod leg is slightly longer than the other, or enough of the pad on one has worn down to make a difference. Keep in mind this shouldn't have mattered originally though as I'd used the bipod to level the rifle. So this may potentially account for the scope not appearing level at home.

Now that I've got the scope off again though, I put the level back on the rail and find that the nightforce 20 MOA rail doesn't even appear to be a good base to use to level from. If I cantilever the level off to the left and get it level, then flip the bubble around to the right side, it's off by about 1/4 of a bubble.

Is there another level spot on a 700 5r I can use? The only one I can find that appears level is the very back portion of the raceway when the bolt is out, however I don't have anyway to know if that is actually level or not.

Hopefully this makes sense. This is my first foray into any kind of precision rifle and in the past I've never had any issues mounting a scope on my AR or hunting rifle using the same method.

Any tips or recommendations are appreciated. I know there are probably easier tools to use out there to do this. If I have to there's a gunsmith in Houston who mounts scopes but I'd rather spend the $ on a tool to do it properly myself than paying someone else to do it.

Thank you!
 
They make a little level that inserts through the ejection/feed port and sits on the bolt raceway rails. That would likely be your best solution. I have a leveling kit that includes that and another level if you're interested. I never actually used it as I went a different route for installing my scope.

If you're interested, you can PM me. Or if you just want to know where to get the kit new. I'm just not home right now to find the info. It's all made of aluminum; looks like good quality stuff.
 
The other option is feeler gauges between the rail and the (typically) flat bottom of the turret housing. Assuming your cross hairs are level with that flat spot, stacking up enough to get a tight-ish fit will bring those two surfaces to true parallel (or exceedingly close to it). Thus, assuming your rail isn't all wonky (which, rem 700's are known to have the rail screws a little off; though typically not any significant), everything will be lined up properly.
 
You can use a feeler gage to level it to the top of the rail. Myself and a bunch of others here have used this method...you can use a deck of playing cards in a pinch.

You can also say fuck it and hang a string/rope and get behind the rifle, close your eyes and get the rifle comfortable and dry fire a few times to really get in the "mood" of the rifle in your shoulder pocket, open your eyes and just level the reticle with the rope with the way you are holding it. I've done this as well and had no issues out to 1K...I think even LowLight (maybe not him) had a write up on doing this method.

Edit: Damnit....always late to the party.
 
I agree on not worrying about it being perfectly level on the rifle. I shoot my rifles awhile, get comfortable with them, get a consistent/comfortable position built in mind, then go and plumb your reticle to vertical while falling into your comfortable position. So many times for me a perfectly level rifle is not my comfortable position; close, but not level. When I level my scope and level the rifle, I end up fighting my position just a bit, hurting me on repeatability. If I run a mounted permanent level, it gets mounted to the scope, not the rail, for this reason. In a way a scope level is useless then, because when you fall into your natural position, it will be really close to perfect every time, no fighting to level a rifle. Just my thoughts, do what works for you..
 
Truth be told, I've never had much luck leveling the scope while on the rifle. Just too many moving parts.
Now I use a piece of aluminum plate drilled and tapped with an extra pic rail and a X/Y level screwed into it. It also has three threaded 1/4-20 bolts that serve as legs for leveling the plate (essentially a wide tripod). Just mount the rings to the plate mounted pic rail, level the plate, then drop the scope in the rings and level the reticle against a distant plumb line. Tighten and check alignment. Done. Now go mount the scope on the pic rail that's on your rifle.

ARC M-10 rings with this plate make mounting a scope a 5 minute affair. For standard four/six screw rings, a ten minute affair.
 
I think you are working way too hard. Just use feeler gauges or a stack of playing cards between the top of your rail and the flat bottom of the scope turret. Keeps everything parallel to each other. Not sure if that will work on your set up or not but that's how I always do it. Lowlight also has a nice write up on leveling your scope. Do a search and see if you can find it.
 
Put the rifle in your shoulder to the point where it feels as comfortable as a natural extension of your body. Don't concern yourself if the rifle is level.

When you have the rifle in your most comfortable hold than have a buddy adjust your scope in the rings until your reticle is perfectly square with a plumb line. Tighten rings. Check again to make sure reticle stayed plumb with earth gravity.

All done.
 
Do not waste your time with leveling kits that work off parts of the rifle. That does not work, nothing says they are square and level to the ground.

The flat of your rail against the flat of the bottom of the scope. That is where things get leveled, flat to flat

Playing Cards, Business Cards, Feeler Gauges all work like the tools you can get with stuff like the Spuhr mount

Here is a video showing the playing cards,

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/V_K9Z9KZvPE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

One the scope is level to flat you check it with a plumb line, this is not overly complicated
 
I use an open end box wrench between the rail and scope. Slide it in, turn it on its side so it's flat against the rail and flat against the scope. Use a wrench that you cant flip all the way up but almost. Gets it nice and parallel.
 
Is it plumb or level ?
I've yet to invest in tools to do either. I lay prone get comfortable and then adjust the plumb line in scope against a blue sky or white wall.
 
I've tried the cards before, but I fuck it up. Every time I pulled the deck out, the scope shifted. Should I have tightened the screws all the way down (almost to the torque spec), or try something else?
 
Thanks for the quick responses everyone. Sounds like I read a little to much into the importance of the rifle being 100% level.

I think I'm gonna use the deck of cards then go shoot this weekend and see how it happens. There's a class I'd like to take in 2 weekends so hopefully get everything sorted enough to do that.

Cheers!
 
For a new scope ..... get it close. You are going to move or tweak it anyway. I use these two devices

http://www.larrywillis.com/. (Scroll to bottom of page for level)
http://www.ctkprecision.com/all-purpose-gun-level.aspx

I installed my new Gen II Razor in about 10 minutes using these tools. While getting used to the scope and tweaking eye releif etc. I use the magnetic one on the rail and check to see if I'm holding my rifle reasonable . I correct within comfort level, then eventually check my crosshairs with a surveyors plumb bob on a string (a rock on some paracord will do.)

I used to agonized over getting my scope perfect. For me getting it close enough with an eye on tweaking it as I shoot is the way to go. Bed your rail flat. Buy great rings. I like Seekins machine matched rings. (the problem with the scope turning while tightening is overblown too.)

Havng a scope you are afraid to move or tweak because you took an hour getting it plumb to your action, is like the hot girlfriend you can't touch because her hair, make-up and dress are perfect. To me comfort behind the scope while shooting is paramount. Then muscle memory to build consistency.

The cards and feeler gauges make me nervous because I feel like a novice or an inattentive moment could lead to stressing or bending the tube. But that's just me. Just be careful when tightening using that method.


 
Thanks for the quick responses everyone. Sounds like I read a little to much into the importance of the rifle being 100% level.

I think I'm gonna use the deck of cards then go shoot this weekend and see how it happens. There's a class I'd like to take in 2 weekends so hopefully get everything sorted enough to do that.

Cheers!

I have had much smarter people explain it much more clearly and elegantly so that it made sense to me but the main point is that the error induced by a rifle that is canted (due to natural point of aim/comfort) but has a scope mounted that is square with gravity will suffer an induced error that at distance will be less than your ability to hold the shot steady, ie at 1000 yards you would have to be about a 1/4 MOA shooter to notice the error.

Now if your scope is not square with gravity I understand that error to be much more severe and an average shooter will suffer as scope elevation adjustments (I guess) impart an amount of windage and the issue stacks itself over distance.

You don't want to fight the rifle and put yourself behind before you even get to the point you put your finger inside the trigger guard. If you have a rifle that allows you to change the angle/height of the butt pad, cheek riser and all other ergonomic customizations than it is possible to make your rifle and scope level/level and still be comfortable. If you don't have that seek comfort than line your scope up with gravity.
 
Havng a scope you are afraid to move or tweak because you took an hour getting it plumb to your action, is like the hot girlfriend you can't touch because her hair, make-up and dress are perfect. To me comfort behind the scope while shooting is paramount. Then muscle memory to build consistency.

Yep, I always end up messing with it after a couple range trips.

 
I used to struggle at making sure my scope was perfectly level to the rail or action and then aligning a scope level perfectly and I found I had to constantly adjust my hold in order for the scope to be level, then I learned from Frank and Thomas Haugland that a much better way to mount a scope was to align it for your natural point of aim and make sure your scope is level to your own natural hold.

Here are some excellent resources:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/blogs/lowlight/6282515-leveling-your-scope-to-the-fall-of-gravity-and-your-rifle-to-your-natural-hold

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzX6DsJ5IrY

In the above video, you can skip to about 3:15 to see the section on scope leveling and natural point of aim.

Another good tip is to use ARC M10 rings, they are so much easier to set without the scope rotating from the the torque of all the different screws in normal rings.
 
Last edited:
Hey Everyone,


Now that I've got the scope off again though, I put the level back on the rail and find that the nightforce 20 MOA rail doesn't even appear to be a good base to use to level from. If I cantilever the level off to the left and get it level, then flip the bubble around to the right side, it's off by about 1/4 of a bubble.


Thank you!

Try the level on any flat surface and then spin the level 180 degrees. You should get the same exact reading. If you dont then the level is the culprit. This is pretty common with these short little bubble levels.

Please let me know if you have any questions

Best regards
Scott Parks
 
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I have never had any luck with the Wheeler levels. POS if you ask me. I really like the look of the Badger level! Thanks for that and the video of leveling the NF!
 
Got a vice? Loosely clamp the rifle in a padded vice, put a level on the pic rail and level it up. Tighten the vice just enough to keep the rifle from moving. Mount scope, place level on top of scope turret, level scope, tighten rings.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

 
Here's how I do things. Lol I'm already laughing at myself...... SO if you have an iPhone, go to your compass and slide left. You'll see a level! I used that level to put on top of the elevation turrent, level it and go shoot. Hasn't failed me yet lol.
 
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