Rifle Scopes Little to no elevation after zero

[Elite_KG]

I have a Leupold VX-R 3-9x40mm on a 20 MOA base in S-Low TPS rings on a Remington 700 LTR. I've been running this configuration for almost 2 years. I've shot out to 400 yards and never had an issue or knew a "problem/concern" existed.

Last Friday I went out shooting and was able to stretch it out to longer distances. To my surprise, I ran out of elevation at 3.7 mils up from my 100 yard zero. This scope has 60 moa or roughly 17 mils of travel. I double checked the range of elevation and indeed I have about 14 mil of travel down from zero at 100 yards and only 3.7 mils up. This way off from where I though it should be. If anything with a 20 moa rail I should be more on the low side leaving more elevation travel from zero up rather than down.

At this position if I didn't have a 20 moa base the scope would theoretically not zero on a 0 moa base.

My rough calculations indicate I would need at least a 40 moa base to get close to a mechanical zero and a 50 moa base to be able to reach 1000 yards.

Just to clear some obvious questions, I have check all the mounts, torque, removed and re-installed with no effect. The 20 moa base is installed correctly (not backwards).

Something must be off? Has anyone else encounter a similar problem? What was the remedy? More cant like a 30, 40, 50 moa base?

Any help would be appreciated.....

 

[Graham]

Your scope is broken.

 

[ranger1183]

not the perfect solution, but I have in the past cut shims from soda cans when I needed more elevation. I would shim the back of the rail only and get that extra tilt that I needed. The material soda cans are made from is very easy to work with. Very easy to cut, drill and folds perfectly. I've used as many as three layers together. Don't remember the gain I got but it did the trick.

 

[Elite_KG]

I can't really straight up disagree with your statement, but I have no other indication that would suggest an optic failure. But your comment does have me considering sending it back to Leupold for them to check it out to be sure.

 

[Quickdraw40]

I've seen bases/1 pc. mounts backwards....

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 4

 

[roggom]

Pics and more detail of your setup. Considering you had the scope mounted and been shooting for two years, have you ever taken it past 400Y? Also when you say down and up, are you referring to the indicators on the dial or the actual reticle? When you dial up, the reticle/erector tube moves down forcing you to raise the rifle back to zero.

The 20 moa base should have the thinner side toward the muzzle, the scope should be pointing in a downward direction (of sorts).

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

maybe an off center erector when zeroed? Did you center the erector / windage when you first zeroed the scope? If not, perhaps you lost a lot of elevation by zeroing the rifle without the erector centered?

 

[sib1948]

Herofish voiced my initial thoughts exactly! Would create the exact issue you have!

 

[NachtKracht]

First check if the scope is broken or not, internally. Just fixate the rifle, aim at a target 100m or y away and have dots lined vertically with an even number of moa's or mills on the target. Then click you elevatio the same amount up and down and watch if all movement of the reticle work flawlessly. You can do the same with shooting groups, shoot a group, go 10 moa or mill up and shoot another, go 20 moa or mill down and shoot another while aiming at the same target. IF all goes well than you should have a nice group on the center aiming point, one exactly 10 moa above and one 10 moa below that aiming point. At least you know that your scope is ok then and not broken.

If your sure the 20 moa mount is fixed ok, the right way...then look at your rings. Are you sure that the rings do not have an forward angle built in, and maybe are mounted wrong, the higher ring on the front and the lower ring on the back?

Going to a 30, 40 and even higher 50 moa canted mount is only going to give you more problems with your current type of scope. Most likely you will end up with a 100y or m zero that will be a certain amount to high above your point of aim, without leaving you any clicks to go down from.

Most of the times with these kind of troubles, and if the scope is not broken, than the shooter must be overlooking something simple...wrong mounted base, to much canting on the base, rings with unknown to the shooter built in cant and mounted backwards, etc etc.

An important question asked above by one of the others; Did you never shoot longer distances before? And if so, did you not have this problem than, so did the scope at that time do have enough travel?

 

[Doug S]

maybe an off center erector when zeroed? Did you center the erector / windage when you first zeroed the scope? If not, perhaps you lost a lot of elevation by zeroing the rifle without the erector centered?

This may sound very stupid, but would you please explain this concept?

 

[Graham]

Little to no elevation after zero

This may sound very stupid, but would you please explain this concept?

Don't waste your time, he made it up.

 

[Elite_KG]

Just to answer a few points raised.

1. I have shot out to 600 yards earlier this year and didnt have this issue. i have rebedded in the stock since then. Scope has been mounted several times with little change to original zero each time, the rail was never removed.

2. I will try to get a pic up later, but I confidently certain the 20 moa base is correct. (Small/thin end mount toward the muzzle - scope angled in "downward" angle as compared to the muzzle).

3. I have to side with Doug S...how does the starting position of a scope erector have anything to do the final position at zero or any other dope for that matter. (The relative position of the scope to the barrel/action will set the initial zero per say; hence 20, 30, 40 etc. bases).

4. The ring are 0.82 TPS TSR Super-Low steel. No cant.

I will get a few pics later today. I appreciate all the responses. I will check the tracking as suggested.

 

[Elite_KG]

Here a few pics...

Everything is kosher to me. I'm leaning toward a internal optic issue. I just checked the travel and everything seems to track well and good. Only issue is I only have 3.7 mils up (reticle moving down) and I have 14 down (reticle moving up).

I think Leupold will get a call Tuesday to see if they can check it out.

 

[RyeDaddy]

Looks good, there's something wrong with the scope.

I had a VX-R Patrol 3-9x40 on a flat top 308 AR and still had about 8 mils useable elevation from 100 yard zero.

 

[PDXGS]

Dude,you're shooting your rifle upside down!
You need declination not elevation!

On a serious note, take your scope off, rings and all and mechanically recenter your windage turret. Then remount the scope - swap the rings - fore and aft - and measure your total number of elevation clicks.
Take care not to force the turrets.
If that doesn't work send it back to Leupy for re entering/collimating- they have good customer service

 

[Elite_KG]

Thanks for the responses. It can be frustrating to know you have a puzzling issue. PDXGS has a good succession to swap the front and rear rings. If there is any error in offset it could be working against me, but if there is 20 moa error to compensate for my base then you would think it would be visible. I will try the ring swap before sending out to Leupold just because I don't have anything left to try.

Thanks all.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

One more trouble shooting suggestion. Try loosening your rings up a tad, see if they are pinching the tube and preventing you from getting the elevation travel.

 

[Elite_KG]

I can look into that as well. I am getting the 17+ mils (60 moa) Leupold claims, but it just takes about 14 mils to zero at 100. I have calculated to almost match a mechanical zero I would need a 40 moa base and to get out to 1000 yards a 50 moa base. Both of these alternatives would still provide a 100 yard zero.

I could do this, but I just don't feel this is the right way. The scope should zero with a 0 moa base and should be on the low impact side of the erector with a 20 moa base that I have. As mentioned, I do not think the scope would reach a 100 yard zero on a 0 moa base. E

I will definitely have to post a follow-up when I determine the issue.

 

[dinc]

It sounds like more a gun issue than scope. The Remington tolerance stack (barrel thread and shoulder, receiver threads and face, etc.) have got the barrel pointed down and you've used most of your up elevation getting to zero even with the moa base.

If you can put your rifle in a secure rest (c-clamp it to your patio table!) and run the scope through its travel and observe where the cross hairs are going. If you've got lots of travel down but none up it's the gun, not the scope.

Another thing to remember is you may have used some of your elevation zeroing your windage (again the barrel may be pointed sideways relative to action centerline). We think of the scope being square but remember it's a tube. If the windage is not centered when zeroed, you'll lose some elevation as the internals hit the side of the tube on their way to the top.

Did the zero change when you re-stocked? It may have had a forend pressure point pushing the barrel upwards allowing you to get to 600 yds previously.

Use your mildots as holdover points, then go shoot the barrel out.

 

[scudzuki]

OP, you can check whether the reticle is centered in the scope yourself.
Remove the scope from the rings/mount and adjust the turrets to center the erector in its travel.
Make up 2 v-blocks sufficiently narrow and tall to support the scope by its main tube and allow the scope to be rotated about its physical centerline without the turrets being obstructed, maybe by notching 2 short pieces of 2x4.
Setup the v-blocks and the scope on a table so that you can look through the scope at something far enough away to eliminate parallax, then rotate the scope so that one of the stadia is horizontal. Pick a target that is aligned with the stadia, then rotate the scope 180 degrees. The amount that the stadia is now misaligned with the target is twice the distance the reticle is off center in that stadia's plane. Obviously you are focusing (no pun intended) on the elevation turret and the horizontal stadia, but you can check both while you're at it.

Joe

 

[NugginFutz]

maybe an off center erector when zeroed? Did you center the erector / windage when you first zeroed the scope? If not, perhaps you lost a lot of elevation by zeroing the rifle without the erector centered?

Seriously? Unless you have a mount with 2 axis of adjustment, this makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Ok, so I must be confused. In the interest of getting unconfused...

I recently got told by US Optics - via paperwork with my scope, and via the videos on their website, that centering the erector was important for maintaining full travel with a scope, and thus was one of the first things to do when getting your scope squared away, and mounted/ zeroed on a new rifle.

So, likely I am misunderstanding something. Is centering the erector something important to do or not - if so (or not) why? I want to be better educated on this subject and was wondering if its even possible to zero the scope/rifle combo with the erector severly off center?

I would imaging that elevation wise, this would be possible - ie say you don't adjust for parallax and are zeroing for elevation. In this case - its seems like you could have the erector either left or right of center, zero for elevation, and lose some potential travel up/down...

 

[scudzuki]

Ok, so I must be confused. In the interest of getting unconfused...

I recently got told by US Optics - via paperwork with my scope, and via the videos on their website, that centering the erector was important for maintaining full travel with a scope, and thus was one of the first things to do when getting your scope squared away, and mounted/ zeroed on a new rifle.

So, likely I am misunderstanding something. Is centering the erector something important to do or not - if so (or not) why? I want to be better educated on this subject and was wondering if its even possible to zero the scope/rifle combo with the erector severly off center?

I would imaging that elevation wise, this would be possible - ie say you don't adjust for parallax and are zeroing for elevation. In this case - its seems like you could have the erector either left or right of center, zero for elevation, and lose some potential travel up/down...

I have a new USO Optic, and the instructions had that BS in it as well.
You can mount the optic with the erector bottomed or topped out, or jammed against a side limit of the windage travel, it won't make one iota of difference, your zero will end up in exactly the same place, and you will have exactly the same amount of elevation and windage adjustment left.

As for erector travel limited in one axis if the other axis is not centered, I haven't owned one single modern optic where the extreme limit of the erector travel describes a circular motion. I've examined S&B, Bushnell, USO, Steiner, March, Sightron, Nikon, and A few others I've forgotten.

Look down into the scope from the objective end; you can see the spring and the turrets. The erector doesn't even touch the main tube, it is limited by the travel of the turret screw. Back the elevation knob all the way out (up) and you can still see some of the turret screw poking out of the turret housing, touching the erector. The erector does not bottom against the main tube, and the erector limits describe a rectangle. Try it yourself.

Joe

 

[223Rem]

Ok, so I must be confused. In the interest of getting unconfused...

I recently got told by US Optics - via paperwork with my scope, and via the videos on their website, that centering the erector was important for maintaining full travel with a scope, and thus was one of the first things to do when getting your scope squared away, and mounted/ zeroed on a new rifle.

So, likely I am misunderstanding something. Is centering the erector something important to do or not - if so (or not) why? I want to be better educated on this subject and was wondering if its even possible to zero the scope/rifle combo with the erector severly off center?

I would imaging that elevation wise, this would be possible - ie say you don't adjust for parallax and are zeroing for elevation. In this case - its seems like you could have the erector either left or right of center, zero for elevation, and lose some potential travel up/down...

Note to self: Do not buy $2000+ optic from company that does not provide a proper mechanically centered reticle from the factory...........just saying.

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Any word from the OP on what the problem was, and how it was resolved?

 

[Frank]

I think what US Optics is saying has merit but only if you have windage adjustable base or rings. But as mentioned, zero is zero, doesn't matter where you started because you will end up at the same place. Some scopes do have less windage when at extreme elevation setting.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

Based on some of the comments, I can only assume some people have not actually watched the video, so here it is.


http://vimeo.com/44949363

 

[jdgray]

I would get a tall enough target, and run the scope through an elevation test. Run it from min to max at 50yrds, to see what your total travel is, see if its close to spec before sending it back.
An out of spec receiver, low in the back, can really eat up your elevation. Did you bed the base? Tighten the front screw only, and look for daylight under the back?

 

[Elite_KG]

I do have an update. Occam's razor strikes again. I went through everything over and over follow advice from some responses. The optic was ruled out as it tracks perfectly well. I decided the issue must lie in the barreled action in some way. The quickest fix for me was to bed my scope rail and bed it at the cant I needed to atleast center the optic mechanically to a rough 100 yard zero. This turned out to be very close to an additional 20 moa every way I calculated it. After bedding the base with a conservative 22 thousandths incline, I bore sighted to find about 18.9 moa achieved (I could lose or gain some tomorrow after an actual zero.).
Being pretty anal about everything, I started thinking why would I need an additional 20 moa. 20 from base and 20 from bedding for 40 moa total just to near mechanical zero. I went back and checked the part number of my base a I was very suspicious it may be out of spec. Low and behold it is a 0 moa base. My order states 20 moa, but the part number is for a 0 moa base.
So know I have a 0 moa base bedded (front and rear) for 20 moa (roughly).
Saved $100 bucks and prevent mass confusion if I would have bought a 40 moa base and not been able to zero at 100 yards. I doubt this post/thread will help anyone and like make many think the OP is a dumbass.....it's what I feel like.
I just couldn't let it go; I knew something was a miss....
The range will tell tomorrow if I'm good to go or if I need 30 moa. Guess we'll see tomorrow.....
Thanks to all for the replies!

 

[garandman]

I doubt this post/thread will help anyone and like make many think the OP is a dumbass.....it's what I feel like.
I just couldn't let it go; I knew something was a miss....
The range will tell tomorrow if I'm good to go or if I need 30 moa. Guess we'll see tomorrow.....
Thanks to all for the replies!

No - it is ALWAYS a good reminder to start with the simplest solutions first. Its easy to forget that when tracking a puzzling situation.