LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

[rivemor]

Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics; LMT granted patent for Monolithic Receivers.

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2012/07/18/mega-arms-halts-sale-of-monolithic-uppers/

Mega Arms is the first, who's next?

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

Damn. The MATEN I have here is stellar quality.

 

[kb1]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

This is retarded. There are so many monolith systems out there, what is LMT gonna do? Pull a Dick Swan and sue everyone? The patent seems very broad.

 

[rivemor]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

Makes me all the more happy with choosing to go with LMT. Dick Swan was the first person I thought of as well.

 

[rockrat]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

Sigh...our patent system is so screwed. Next thing you know they'll issue a patent for a posterior supporting platform with a plurality of pillars and a rearward perpendicular back stop mounted to said platform.

I really wish they'd have told LMT to go pound sand.

 

[Powder_Burns]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

I'll still support Mega--they have a good product and ultimately that's what matters to the consumer. Screw LMT.

 

[Graham]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rockrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Next thing you know they'll issue a patent for a posterior supporting platform with a plurality of pillars and a rearward perpendicular back stop mounted to said platform.</div></div>Nope. Improvements to existing products are patentable only if they are new, useful, and non-obvious. If the improved product retains the same basic function as the original, the way it accomplishes that function must be different.

 

[346ci]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

Plain retarded. Anyway, Mega will be fine, their stuff leads the pack.

 

[mwilkins]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

Looks like LMT is just trying to kick their competition out of part of the market place. As a business, they gotta do what they gotta do but with so many other companies making similar products, why couldn't LMT be content with their customer base and grow it as they could rather than go after another company. For me, this will keep me from purchasing any more LMT products in the future and make sure to support the smaller shops.

 

[Dogtown]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

Keep in mind, they applied for the patent in 2003 - it was only granted this year. In 2003, how many others were doing monolithic uppers? It's lame, I agree. If anything, their quick change barrel tech makes more sense as a patent.

 

[sgtbutt]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

The problem with this is the fact that Mega will stop their Monos period just because LMT has a "Mono" patent. Sure LMT makes a good product and their torquing platform/barrel mount should be what is patented, not jsut the "Mono".

Mega makes a fantastic product! Their Monos are top notch. By them choosing to stop means they are thinking of a next best thing for them which is good for business. But if LMT decides to sue it shows how much of a dick they are, not saying they will.

But because of this, if LMT has sole rights to any "Mono" system, the market will become stagnant. Yes others will pop up, I mean look at Seekins and their new platform. Its just rediculous for Mega all at once to stop because LMT received the patent. If LMT has no intentions of a lawsuit Mega should continue. Since they stopped I wonder if they caught wind of that very occurence in the future.

LMT makes an awesome platform, they are producing rifles for militaries across the globe and can't hardly keep up with production for civies, if Mega would continue it would only show LMT what a good product they have. People buy the MRPs and MWSs for a reason, they're good, I wish LMT would be content knowing that and leave Mega alone.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

LMT didn't sue or go after Mega Arms. Mega Arms chose to discontinue rather than face possible future litigation for patent infringement. All your bad mouthing LMT should try actually reading the article instead of skimming.

I love how everybody cursed Midway for knocking off rear bags, but when LMT spends the time and money to patent their product they're now being bad mouthed for it.

 

[WildBill3/75]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

I don't know why they would halt unless they recieved a cease and desist letter.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WildBill3/75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know why they would halt unless they recieved a cease and desist letter. </div></div>

Because they could dragged into court for knowingly continuing after the patent was issued. The article even explains it. Why put yourself at risk for literally tens of thousands at dollars just to defend yourself? They're a small company compared to others without a budget that can afford litigation.

 

[redhooker]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

LMT has not sued anyone, or even told Mega to stop building anything, according to this article. It would also appear they did in fact patent the quick-change barrel:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In the broadest interpretation of their patent, it covers a monolithic rail platform that has:

a handguard portion adapted to receive the barrel
an upper receiver portion that houses a bolt carrier and is integrally formed with handguard
<span style="color: #FF0000">a coupling at a forward end of the upper receiver, integrated with the handguard portion, that has a releasable clamp to hold the barrel</span>
</div></div>

So from reading the article, Mega has decided on their own that their "design" is too close to the LMT. Seems like there is no reason to be upset, and Mega will probably be coming out with something new and maybe kooler

 

[Laseredge]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redhooker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LMT has not sued anyone, or even told Mega to stop building anything, according to this article. It would also appear they did in fact patent the quick-change barrel:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In the broadest interpretation of their patent, it covers a monolithic rail platform that has:

a handguard portion adapted to receive the barrel
an upper receiver portion that houses a bolt carrier and is integrally formed with handguard
<span style="color: #FF0000">a coupling at a forward end of the upper receiver, integrated with the handguard portion, that has a releasable clamp to hold the barrel</span>
</div></div>

So from reading the article, Mega has decided on their own that their "design" is too close to the LMT. Seems like there is no reason to be upset, and Mega will probably be coming out with something new and maybe kooler

</div></div>

+1, That is the way I read it.

 

[TripleD]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

In the spirit of perspective....
LMT getting this patent serves no purpose other than monetary gain & corporate leverate. Who wouldnt want that? I hope they are cooperative with other manufacturers. Something like this can really be a kick in the dick to a company like Mega or Black Rain Ordnance. They both make premium products but are smaller operations.

This doesnt help the market as a whole. This has the potential to squash products & in many instances development. It also potentially hurts smaller AR manufacturers. At the end of the day, it limits options available to the customer & hurts small business. When things become patented or proprietary they become a pain in the ass. Parts become more difficult to get etc etc

I think its important we keep aware of what is happening to the markets we are interested in & the things that can effect what is available to us. Personally, at the end of the day, IDGAF about a monolithic upper. I dont have or really need one & its easy for many of us to feel unaffected.

On a side note, doesnt Larue use a monolithic upper?

 

[Bedlam]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TripleD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This doesnt help the market as a whole. This has the potential to squash products & in many instances development. It also potentially hurts smaller AR manufacturers. At the end of the day, it limits options available to the customer & hurts small business. When things become patented or proprietary they become a pain in the ass.</div></div>

There is good and bad in the patent process. The flip side of your argument is that without the patent process, why would a company spend lots of dollars on R&D only to have every Dick, Harry, and Tom copy his work for free the following week? The inability to protect R&D stifles original innovation.

Imagine if Eugene Stoner spent untold dollars and months or years of hard work inventing and making the M-16 work, only to have 20 companies copy his designs wholesale the following month.

The compromise is that patents expire. They give the original inventor time to recoup R&D budget and make a fair profit, then everyone else can get in on the action, compete with each other, and bring to market the wonderful diversity we have now with AR-15s.

LMT isn't being evil, they are protecting their invention. The patent doesn't necessarily prevent other monolithic uppers. As someone has already mentioned, there are specific items in the patent that others can work around with their own innovation.

LMT could also license their patent for a reasonable fee. Sure it's nice to have a monopoly on your own design, but it's even nicer to sit back and let others do the work while you get a cut.

 

[TripleD]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bedlam</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TripleD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This doesnt help the market as a whole. This has the potential to squash products & in many instances development. It also potentially hurts smaller AR manufacturers. At the end of the day, it limits options available to the customer & hurts small business. When things become patented or proprietary they become a pain in the ass.</div></div>

There is good and bad in the patent process. The flip side of your argument is that without the patent process, why would a company spend lots of dollars on R&D only to have every Dick, Harry, and Tom copy his work for free the following week? The inability to protect R&D stifles original innovation.

Imagine if Eugene Stoner spent untold dollars and months or years of hard work inventing and making the M-16 work, only to have 20 companies copy his designs wholesale the following month.

The compromise is that patents expire. They give the original inventor time to recoup R&D budget and make a fair profit, then everyone else can get in on the action, compete with each other, and bring to market the wonderful diversity we have now with AR-15s.

LMT isn't being evil, they are protecting their invention. The patent doesn't necessarily prevent other monolithic uppers. As someone has already mentioned, there are specific items in the patent that others can work around with their own innovation.

LMT could also license their patent for a reasonable fee. Sure it's nice to have a monopoly on your own design, but it's even nicer to sit back and let others do the work while you get a cut. </div></div>

Indeed, there are 2 sides to this coin.

 

[Layton]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

Bottom line is that if LMT holds the patent rights then I'm on their side. I deal with patent issues frequently and am glad the law actually works.

No one here would invest in a technology, go to the trouble of getting it patented and then just let your competitors use that patent for free just because it's 'best for the consumer'. You know how many companies would go bankrupt employing that practice and how much innovation would be negatively impacted. Why invent something if you have to compete with your competitors selling your technology they did nothing to develop and then try to recoup you investment.

Before you just start bashing LMT, think the whole process through and about the much larger implications other than who your gonna get you next mono upper from. Just try to put yourself in the shoes of the folks that put down money and time to get that patent through.

 

[kb1]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

It stinks that LMT uses a proprietary barrel. It was nice to be able to buy a monolith, and then basically be able to run any off the shelf AR barrel you wanted, within reason of course. That is most likely going to dry up.

 

[346ci]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Layton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bottom line is that if LMT holds the patent rights then I'm on their side. I deal with patent issues frequently and am glad the law actually works.

No one here would invest in a technology, go to the trouble of getting it patented and then just let your competitors use that patent for free just because it's 'best for the consumer'. You know how many companies would go bankrupt employing that practice and how much innovation would be negatively impacted. Why invent something if you have to compete with your competitors selling your technology they did nothing to develop and then try to recoup you investment.

Before you just start bashing LMT, think the whole process through and about the much larger implications other than who your gonna get you next mono upper from. Just try to put yourself in the shoes of the folks that put down money and time to get that patent through. </div></div>

I have no problem with a company claiming a design. The problem is the design is common, like a upper or lower receiver. Reminds me of when spiral fluting of barrels was patented, dumb....

When you have several monos to choose from, the better. I never considered LMT to be the hot shit so it doesn't make much of a difference to me, I'll spend where I see fit. You will be hard pressed to find a better product than what Mega can crank out. I'd hate to see LMT go big corporate and end up like freedom group.

 

[smschulz]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rives</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Makes me all the more happy with choosing to go with LMT. </div></div>

Makes me NOT want one ~ DICKS!

 

[Layton]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

It's all coin driven.

 

[OldGuardShooter]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

Business never personal . Company's need money to make money and can't give their stuff away free guys.

 

[Pusher591]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Layton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bottom line is that if LMT holds the patent rights then I'm on their side. I deal with patent issues frequently and am glad the law actually works.

No one here would invest in a technology, go to the trouble of getting it patented and then just let your competitors use that patent for free just because it's 'best for the consumer'. You know how many companies would go bankrupt employing that practice and how much innovation would be negatively impacted. Why invent something if you have to compete with your competitors selling your technology they did nothing to develop and then try to recoup you investment.

Before you just start bashing LMT, think the whole process through and about the much larger implications other than who your gonna get you next mono upper from. Just try to put yourself in the shoes of the folks that put down money and time to get that patent through. </div></div>

+1

 

[mattmcg]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

I wonder why Mega didn't opt to evaluate a licensing arrangement to continue producing monolithic uppers. Typically in this type of scenario, the patent owner is well served by allowing competition while earning a license for their contribution for the advancement. All products improve, market size expands, and the patent holder is better off financially in the long run.

 

[BCP]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mattmcg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder why Mega didn't opt to evaluate a licensing arrangement to continue producing monolithic uppers.</div></div>

They tried, LMT wouldn't respond to them.

 

[b1c2r3r4]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

In bass fishing a company designed a lure called a chatterbait and got a patent on it a few years later.most companies that were making baits close to the same design as chatterbaits quit making them and the fishing industry has been hurt by this because not as many lures are sold now. The original was good but not buy its self. We would buy the original and another brand and combine the two to make the best ( in our eyes) chatterbait. So the company lost sales by making the other companies quit making them. So if the public views it as lmt being greedy then it will hurt them in the long run as well as the industry.

 

[Layton]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
They tried, LMT wouldn't respond to them. </div></div>

That's what the article said. You can bet you arse LMT won't walk away from a licensing agreement if there's positive cash flow tied to it. Matt pretty much nailed it on how this usually works. If there's not a licensing agreement put in place there's a damn good reason for it. We will just have to wait and see what it is.

 

[p951951951t]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

WOW, a lot of people jumping to conclusions. LMT's patent is far from secure and they know it. There will still be chances for prior art even now that it has been approved, plus the patent can always be challenged later. LMT is simply seeking to use our patent system the same way any company would. It's a very messy thing and patent/licensing litigation is even messier. A patent like this is not likely to have an effect on any larger companies because those companies probably also hold patents that might be vulnerabilities to LMT. That's how it works... one company sues for violation, the other countersues with their own patents, the two flex their legal might for a while before agreeing to licensing agreements.


Just look at the cell phone industry and all of the patent wars going on right now - it is not black and white, and unless you operate a business that has a lot of patent assets or really understand patent law, it's hard to know what's what.

 

[BERTMAN77MK2]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

How about VLTOR!

 

[USGUNWORKS]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

License it and cash regular checks..

 

[bobbyfairbanks]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

I will have to say I support the Patent laws

 

[HPLLC]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bobbyfairbanks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will have to say I support the Patent laws </div></div>

Agreed- a novel idea is a novel idea, but it sucks for a lot of people like Vltor who have been in monolithic rails and have made significant investments in that kind of technology if this applies to them.

It also narrows the scope of improvements to the technology. Mega's system looks like a good system for instance. Now gone.

I own an LMT gun, and I like it, but I also understand the MRP system is by nature fairly heavy. The barrel attachment system looks like it weighs more than it could if it were executed in a different way.

 

[Layton]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

I dunno, you might have a better product emerge as their competitors try to engineer their way around the patent.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Layton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dunno, you might have a better product emerge as their competitors try to engineer their way around the patent. </div></div>

I don't know how a manufacturer is supposed to make a rail system more solid than one that is fused to the upper receiver. That would seem illogical.

 

[Layton]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

Like I said. I don't know either. Mega said they were working something else didn't they?

 

[HPLLC]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Layton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like I said. I don't know either. Mega said they were working something else didn't they? </div></div>

By necessity. There are some rails that are good, but in terms of alignment and rigidity, a monolithic platform is just about unbeatable.

I like DD rails for instance, but I've noticed they often don't install true. AKA I bolt one on and find myself almost running out of front sight post threads getting zeroed, or I can see some visible alignment error that cosmetically isn't great. I don't know why that is, but they don't seem to line up very consistently at all.

 

[cz777]

Re: LMT - Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

this is just dumb ,a crap fight in the sandbox !

 

[mrunge]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rockrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sigh...our patent system is so screwed. Next thing you know they'll issue a patent for a posterior supporting platform with a plurality of pillars and a rearward perpendicular back stop mounted to said platform.
</div></div>


a Table? lol

 

[a1-equipment]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

Any one know if they are going after les Baer and his monothic upper. I have one of those on order.

I would guess the price on the mega's that are out there just jumped a bunch

 

[Layton]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

From the looks of it, no one has gone after anyone yet. Mega has decided to pull out on their own before being asked to.

 

[spikele]

Re: Mega Arms halts sale of monolithics Uppers

http://spikele.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/mega-arms-letter-to-customers/