Range Report Load development for 6.5x47

Allen Elishewitz

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Minuteman
Jul 3, 2007
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Texas
www.elishewitzknives.com
This is going to be an ongoing thread which I will be updating with the progress.
The rifle has a Rock barrel M24 contour, 8 twist, 5R. The action is a Surgeon in an AICS 2.0 stock. Trigger is a Rifle Basix and the scope is a NightForce.
GAP did all the metal work and also installed a Badger FTE muzzle brake.
This rifle is chambered in a 6.5x47 Lapua. So here it is:

GARifle05.jpg


I started load developments with Lapua 123 Scenars and Lapua brass, 205 Federal primers. I really did not want to use RL15 but bought a pound of it to try it out. I am also using H4350. The bullet is set to the point where it just touches the lands.

The first time out to the range I wasn't expecting much because I was breaking in the barrel and at the same time doing some test shots to find out the limitations of the loads. The RL15 definitely got the velocity up in the 2900 to 3000 fps but I did not like the ejector flow and the bolt was getting a little sticky. I believe that could be minimized with a neck sized and fire formed brass. But the temperature issues with RL15 still do not sit well with me so I decided to abandon this powder after this first time at the range.
The 4350 had a softer recoil and quieter bark but I just did not push it hard enough that day. One thing I found interesting with the Rock barrel is how quickly it cleaned up. I would put patch of solvent followed by an oversized nylon brush with 5 full strokes. I would then patch it out and use Wipe Out. There was no blue. I can do the same thing to my Krieger barrel and I will get blue.

Here is the target, using 4350 on the first day at the range:

Target3.jpg


After examining both the 4350 and RL15 targets, I wanted to start eliminating some variables because I have seen groupings like this before and a bedding job always fixed it. So I went ahead and bedded my rifle.

Bedding1.jpg


Bedding2.jpg


Prior to bedding there was slight movement in the action when loosening the front screw. After bedding there was no movement in the action if you loosened any of the screws. I decided to put tape in front and below the recoil lug to give me a .020 gap. The theory behind this is we have 3 different materials expanding and contracting at different rates. So I did not want anything touching the front of the recoil lug and the bottom gap prevents debris to come in contact with the lug. I also raised the action .020 so I could get more bedding compound on the chassis. The question is: would this make the groups tighter? Who knows, but it does remove one variable.

The second time I went to the range it was with a bedded rifle and I pushed the 4350 a little harder but there was one problem; I wasn't on my A game due to very little sleep. Here are the pics:

Target4.jpg


On the third testing, I went ahead and jammed the bullet .020 into the lands. I wasn't getting the velocities I was wanting and on this trip I worked my way up to 41.6gr and I believe I could even go to 42gr. On the far left target (the first one), that is what I call my control target: 5 shots of 41.6gr touching the lands. I wanted to see how that would shoot because the last time I was at the range I was shooting with 4 hours of sleep.

Target5.jpg


So far all of these have been virgin brass.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

How much RL 15 did you use when your bolt lift got sticky?
Is 42gr of H4350 a compressed load?
At what OAL are you touching the lands with your rifle?

There are some other observations on 6.4X47L load development in another thread. I am very interested to see how your development turns out.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

I can not remember the exact charge, the velocity was around 2975-2985 something like that. After the sticky bolt I lost interest. Note, the bolt was not sticking super bad but it was sticking more than I would like it.

Yes 42gr. of H4350 is compressed, if you look down the case you have about .1875-.250 before you reach the top.

The OAL is 2.720 I have had up to .007 difference in length due to the variation of the tips.

I know there are other threads on this topic I did not want to hijack the thread.

 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

Regardless of powder you results show that you go from horizontal to vertical spread around 41,2+- .2.

That is a sweet spot there.

Should you really set to lands in that rifle, how will it be used?

Anyways sweet rig and you are so close to the perfect charge.

Best regards Chris
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

I loaded 10 rounds with H4350 last night at 40.0 gr.
I am going to load 10 @ 40.5 and 41.0 and see how they chrono and group.

I shot 20 rounds loaded with RL15
My plan was to start with RL15 37.0 gr and Lapua 123 gr Scenar with CCI 450 primer. I also loaded the Sierra Matchking 123gr exactly the same. They were set at OAL of 2.74

The 123 scenar averaged 2972fps ,ES42,SD15 and the two five shot groups averaged 0.73inch at 100 yards

The SMK 123 was slightly slower 2920 and the groups were 1.4 inch.

I, too, am using a Surgeon action (a Scalpel rifle, it is Awesome!) and I did not get a sticky bolt lift at that charge.

I have a notebook that I use for my load development and for my range book. I try to record all parameters of my loading so when I find the best load I can reproduce it exactly. I think this trait was instilled when I was running a research lab and got beat up a few times when I could not remember what mods I had done to the experimental setup that produced good results.
smile.gif
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

I went back to the range yesterday to shoot 5 shots groupings. Those are usually the definitive answers. It seems like touching the lands and anything past 41.6gr, the rifle is not liking too much. I am consistently getting decent velocity and accuracy at 41.4gr. Yesterday I shot a nice group at 41.4 and if it wasn't for one that jumped out, it would have been .160 center to center (4 shots). The velocities I got were 2904, 2904, 2904, 2879, 2917. I am not a really big fan of jamming the lands so I am not going to do it with this gun. I am not gaining that much more velocity going to 41.6gr; it just kind of stalls and seems more erratic.
Next I'll be using CCI BR primers and Russian primers in fire-formed brass. I have ordered 123 SMK and 120 Berger and I have a feeling these might shoot better. Lapua is known to be a little on the smaller side.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

Loading long short into lands etc effectively changing pressure curve
Adjust powder charge does same thing, you can do both but its easier to keep it simple
1. Choose a vel/charge you want adjust OAL only until u get accuracy ur looking for, great for BR and single loading
2. load to mag length, adjust charge until u get accuracy u want.
My plan once i have gun etc
OAL 2.800, 139 scenar, 42gr H4350, russian mag primer
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

I have been testing several different bullets in my 6.5X47 since i got it up and running this past spring. One of my favorite bullet/powder combos is H-4350 and 120gr Bergers. Here's a photo of a 5 shot group @ 100yds.
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Re: Load development for 6.5x47

Allen, don't know, I don't own a chrono. Someone with QL might run a hypothetical. CCI BR-4 primer, 39.0 gr. H-4350, 120gr Berger, 26" barrel, 8" twist, 350' above sea level, say 70 degrees F, BC on the Berger of .492.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

FWIW:

All of my brass shows an ejector mark from the first firing -- even with lighter loads, but none since. I FL resize every time.

I run the 123 Scenars about 10 thou off the lands -- any closer and the accuracy got worse but never bad.

I got the 123's to over 3000fps before I started to get a sticky bolt or primer flattening. 2950 was the sweet spot for my rifle with the Scenars. I'm using a 25.5" 8.5 twist Rock -- how were your primers?

I don't have any temp issues with RL-15 -- I've used two different lots. Velocity with rounds loaded in the same batch ran 2947 at 80 degrees and 2918 at 20 degrees. Have you actually shot it at different temps or is the sensitivity "hearsay"?
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

I also got ejector marks at light loads with RL15 and just like my .260 it would go away after fire form and neck sizing. No I have not experienced temperature issues with RL15 but two fellow Hiders at the range have, members of this forum have, and I am going to avoid that possibility. We can get pretty hot here in Texas and I do not want a winter load and summer load.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Allen Elishewitz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">calsh, what is the velocity?</div></div>

The 120gr Berger is too new for Quickload's current catalog. But here's the info for the 120gr SMK. They shouldn't be too far off since the Berger is not a VLD. Their bearing surfaces should be close. That .492 bc is up there, though, compared to the .421 of the SMK. Wonder how they do that.

Cartridge : 6.5 x 47 Lapua
Bullet : .264, 120, Sierra HPBT MatchK 1725
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch or 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch or 660.4 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4350

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 75 31.20 2105 1181 22186 5671 77.2 1.791
-18.0 77 31.98 2156 1239 23510 5889 78.6 1.749
-16.0 79 32.76 2208 1299 24915 6107 80.0 1.709
-14.0 81 33.54 2260 1361 26403 6324 81.3 1.669
-12.0 83 34.32 2312 1425 27984 6540 82.6 1.630
-10.0 85 35.10 2365 1490 29661 6754 83.9 1.592
-08.0 87 35.88 2418 1558 31442 6965 85.2 1.556
-06.0 89 36.66 2472 1628 33334 7173 86.4 1.519
-04.0 90 37.44 2525 1699 35345 7378 87.6 1.484
-02.0 92 38.22 2579 1773 37485 7578 88.7 1.447
+00.0 94 39.00 2634 1848 39762 7773 89.8 1.408
+02.0 96 39.78 2688 1926 42188 7963 90.8 1.370
+04.0 98 40.56 2743 2005 44775 8147 91.8 1.333
+06.0 100 41.34 2798 2086 47535 8324 92.8 1.298
+08.0 102 42.12 2853 2169 50484 8494 93.7 1.263
+10.0 104 42.90 2908 2254 53635 8656 94.5 1.229 ! Near Maximum !

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 94 39.00 2792 2077 47148 8122 96.1 1.304
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 94 39.00 2445 1593 33081 7110 80.6 1.526
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

Thanks TwoGun, that looks pretty slow but I am sure it is approximately correct. Don't know if you saw the article at 6mmBR about Don Neilson's rig. He was shooting 130 jlk's with a 37 something load of RL-15 and he was getting velocity of 2880.
Don Neilson Rig
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

I tried H4350 today with 123 Scenar bullets.
I started with 40.0gr and went to 40.5 and 41.0 .
It got too late for the chrony to see the bullets so I will have to shoot the 41.0 another time.

Temp. 80 RH 62% Press 29.93 (station) DA 1650
wind from 7o'clock at 5 mph

First 5round string at 40.0gr had Vavg = 2846fps ES 37 sd 15.6
second string same load Vavg =2874 fps ES=47 sd =2.8

the next two were loaded with 40.5gr
1st String Vavg =2907 ES= 27 sd = 10
next String Vavg = 2894 ES = 21 sd = 8.2

The accuracy of the loads was really good. Better than the shooter by far. I am having some issues with cheek weld and trigger pull. I had pretty significant horizontal stringing of one group over 1.25 inch. I need some coaching. I think.
I'll post a picture and see what the real shooters out there think.
IMG_1077.jpg
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

Hey guys, I thought i should give you my range report from yesterday.

Rifle: GAP built AR-10 24" 8.5 twist

Load: Lapua brass, 139 scenar, BR primer, 37.0 RL15 COL 2.740
temp 80@ SL avg fps 2895

Smallest 5rd group 2.32" @575yds Largest 3.7"

Very consistent load(lowest fps 2888 highest 2903)I feel this is a max load in this rifle. Just wanted to throw a little more info on the pile.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

Do you feel 37.0 is as high as you want to go?
With that same load I got an avg 2992 fps and with the Sierra Match king I got 2920 fps.
The Lapua scenar was the better bullet.
I am considering going up a little on RL. Perhaps to 37.5
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

Crumpmd,
yes I think it's about max for my gas gun and i'm pretty happy with performance. I may tinker around with COL a bit and may back down to 36.5 or so if it doesn't affect accuracy.

My whole purpose for this rifle is to be able to participate in our 575yd clay bird shoot, it looks like the rifle will do its part.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

Allen: Federal 210M's are the "go to" large rifle primer, but the 205/205M have not been nearly as consistent. I'd take a look at Remington or CCI Small rifle BR primers. You really need a hotter primer. Should help velocity too. I think Wyowisper is using CCI 450's in his 6.5x47L with good results.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

The weather has been pretty crappy the past few days so I haven't been able to make it to the range. Next time I go to the range it will be to finish fire forming the brass. I really wanted to only use 4350 and 123 Lapuas. 4350 because I already have it for my 260 and the 123s because I have 2000 of them. Today I received some 120 Bergers and 123 SMKs, also 4Lbs of N550. I also have Russian and CCI BR primers so you can see that the experimenting will begin.
I'll keep you posted.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

The BR4's and 450's both worked great for me. I haven't tried the BR4's in cold temps yet though. The PMC mag primers and the 450's were interchangable in my loads.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

For those following the details I reported an OAL of my loads to be 2.74 in. This is the same as the factory Lapua ammo. But I was having a bit of a stiff bolt closing on a new round. After talking to Preston at Surgeon I checked and have found the bullet well into the lands. Pretty much crammed in there.
So I will figure out at what OAL the bullet is just kissing or barely off and run the loads again.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

Jereds building my 6.5x47L and I need to send some "representative" loads for him to cut the chamber so I am looking for some OAL info. I have a box of factory Lapua 123 & 139s for starters but am anticipating using 130 Bergers for my main bullet, anyone have these loaded out? Not interested in factory OAL as I have that already.

Build: Surgon, 28" Rock 8.5, A5, Badger M5
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

I'm shooting a 6X47 Lapua, did some shooting today in the cold and found the CCI 450 and the CCI BR2 to be interchangeable.

I tested both primers and 39.5 H4350 powder, 115 DTAC at about 15 deg F. outside, ammo and rifles were out for some time to cool down to ambient temp before testing. Just over 3000 FPS out of a 26" Rock 8 twist. I was supprised they went that fast in the cold. I zero'd at 100 yds and shot some 600 yd groups. Just shy of 11 MOA elevation needed.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

I measured the chamber tonight with a fired round and a 123 scenar. The neck was just tight enough to hold the bullet and allowed it to slide under pressure. I started at OAL 2.80 and measured 2.68 on removal.I repeated this 10 times and got 2.67 twice.
The OAL of the Lapua ammo is 2.74. I have been loading my rounds to this and have been jamming them 6/100 into the lands.
My plan is to set my OAL at 2.67 and continue load development at that setting. I have a hunch the 2920 fps I was seeing with 37.0gr RL 15 may drop a little. And I wonder if accuracy will be as good. The rifle seemed not to mind being jammed. Except the bolt was hard to close.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

Since I am having a problem with the Dillon 550 I shot Some factory Lapua 123 scenar today at 300 yards to check the Exbal calculated come ups.
The elevations were right on. There was no wind to speak of so no corrections. The 2 groups maxed at 1.5 inch at 300 yards.
Hopefully I can load some this week and see what the new OAL gives in velocity,
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

The weather has been a hit and miss so since my last post I have shot 200 rounds and fire formed the brass. The barrel should be broken in by now and the cases have been trimmed to 1.834 and neck sized only. I got 2 new bullets: 123gr SMK and 120gr Berger. I also got a few pounds of N550.

The targets below were shot only with 123gr Scenars and SMKs. The powder was N550. The bullets are .005 off the lands. I must admit that the groupings shown below have a lot of shooter's errors. I was in a hurry to get out of town, I was freezing outside at 35 and the sun was right in my eyes... But it still gave me plenty of information for me to work off.

Target6.jpg


Target7.jpg


I really like the N550. It brought down my ES and SD much lower than the 4350. It even got the velocities where I wanted them to be. It seems that above 3000fps the groupings start opening up.

Tomorrow I am going to the range with 10 rounds of each load that I think will be the one. I settled in with the SMKs at 40.6 and 41 with the Scenars. I'll also be shooting a string with the Bergers.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

It looked like you had a good node at 2880 with 41.2gr of 4350 in your earlier testing.
I've heard others remark the groups open up over 3000fps. I have been looking for a node in the 2800 to 3000fps range. I am going to use the RL15 and 4350 for now. Until I can shoot strings of 10 to 20 shots with the same load I am not certain what my variation will be with a particular powder. My current sample size is too small to support any certain conclusion.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

Looks like we doing same kinda thing Bro
i,m going with
28" MTU bartlein 8twist
Manners T4
Badger DBM
130 bullet seems to be perfect i,m doing same just not berger, thou i try them if i cant get bullet of choice to work B.C .620 @ 2950fps+
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

In my Surgeon Razor, 37 grains of RL15, Lapua 123, CCI450, 2.680" OAL, is Max. 36 grains is Max with the 130 Bergers at 2.735" OAL. I have not chrono'd those loads yet, as the weather was too nasty.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

I started at 37 with the RL15 and OAL 1.74
I found they chrono around 2970. I had no pressure signs as far as primers were concerned and the bolt opened easy.
But I found at 1.74 OAL the round is jammed into the lands.
I started on some 4350 at the same OAL with some good groups.

But now I am going to load 0.01 to 0.02 off the lands, for my rifle that will be 2.66 to 2.67.

So I will check the RL15 at 36.0, 36.5 and 37.0gr at the new OAL and repeat what I've done with the 4350 at the new OAL. and see what it gives.

I am really interested in seeing how Allen's N550 works out. I have heard good things about that powder.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

I shot 6 ten shot strings today.
5 of them were 123gr Scenar and one with SMK 123gr .
I loaded H4350 at 40.0 ,40.5, and 41.0 gr at an OAL of 2.68inch .
I loaded H4350 41.0gr behind the SMK 123 gr.OAL 2.68
I loaded RL15 36.5, and 37.0gr at an OAL 2.68
The results were satisfactory. The It 4350 shows slow gain in velocity at half grain increases. The average velocities were
2813,2844 and 2839 respectively. The variability of the loads ranged from 14 to 18. The ES from 50 to 60. The 40.5 and 41.0 are compressed a bit. There were no signs of high pressure.
The 41.0 showed the tightest group and I think the 2806 to 2850 range is an accuracy node in my rifle. This is a 10 shot group.
IMG_1109.jpg

I found the RL15 gives very good velocity and there is no powder compression. So I will probably use it to explore the higher velocities.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

I shot again today. 123 gr. Scenar with 41.5gr of H4350 . I had a few tight bolt lifts and the primers were affected slightly as well. These were loaded to 2.69-2.70 inch.
Average velocity was 2950 fps.
I will consider this as a max load. The 41.0 grain load shows very tight groups.
My next testing will he 50 rounds of 123 SMK with 37.0gr RL15loaded to 2.69 to 2.70 OAL and 50 rounds 123 scenar loaded the same. Then 50 rounds of each bullet with H4350 at 41.0 gr.
I can do some statistical analysis on that sample size and on that basis I will decide RL 15 terms H4350 and SMK versus Lapua 123 scenar.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

I shot to 500 yards today with 123grain SMK over 37.0 gr RL-15 and had to adjust the predicted come up quite a bit. I had chronoed the load at 2970 and after shooting I found my come up to be 7.0 MOA at 500 yards. I don't know if this means the round is hotter than I got earlier. I need to shoot over the chrono again.
Group Sizes were around 3.5 inch.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

I was able to shoot at 600 today.
The EXBAL come ups as modified yesterday had me in the 9 ring on the first shot. I think 37 grains of RL-15 with OAL 2.69 and SMK123 is probably going faster out of the barrel than the 2970 I chronoed earlier. Either that or the EXBAL was needing adjusting.
At any rate I like this load. I plan to shoot it again in a couple of weeks at 600. I want to see if it will give a tight group.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

Allen E,

I've also been doing load development on 6.5 x 47 with a new GAP rifle. Small world. It also has a Surgeon action and an AICS 2.0 stock, but has a Bartlein 26" barrel and a Badger brake and rings with a 5-25x 56 mm S&B, Harris Bipod and an Accu Shot mono pod.

I currently have 270 rounds down the tube and have just started to see some good groups. I'm loading Berger 130 VLD to the lands with some RL-15. I originally went through a pound of H4350 with CCI BR4 primers before switching to RL-15. I never had any really good groups with H4350. But, in all honesty, I'll probably go back and retry H4350 again, as I feel I've improved my shooting and reloading skills and the barrel seems to be 'settled in' now. I also noted that my groups seemed to shrink noticably after I started using the mono pod (after the H4350 testing).

I'm currently doing OCW testing (just discovered this technique on the Hide) and the groups are the best to date, but the outcome of the OCW test is not clear. I've ran the same test three times, using the same brass for each group and only changing the brand of primer. The brass now has 14 loadings on it. I got the highest velocities with Wolf Magnum primers, but the most consistent groups and smallest ES with CCI 450 primers. I followed the instructions on the OCW web site for testing, round robin shooting and all. Here are the results.


01/09/09
RL-15 Powder
Berger 130 VLD to the lands
CCI BR4 Primers

OCWTest001.jpg



01/10/09
RL-15 Powder
Berger 130 VLD to the lands
Wolf Magnum Primers

OCWTest002.jpg


01/11/09
RL-15 Powder
Berger 130 VLD to the lands
CCI 450 Magnum Primers

OCWTest003-1.jpg


I don't really see any three powder charges that seem to group the same, so I guess I'll just work with the no. 4 and 5 powder charges and the CCI 450 primers. Both have good ES, tight groups, and seem to be the closest to grouping in the same spot.

Next testing will be at 200 yd and 384 yd, cause that's what I have easy access to.


 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

Current load i,m working on 41.5 h4350 130JLK OAL2.8000
0.010 into lands, Wolf mag primers

I have a bunch of 130 bergers on hand so will compare 130JLK to 130 berger, post results when done
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

I have another thread over on the 'reloading' forum about this very subject -'Pending Case Head Separation'. Short story - it appears I'm getting some stretching, but not yet critical. The consenses on this stretching is that it's occurring because I've been full length resizing and bumping the shoulder for the last 14 reloads. I'm going to stop bumping the shoulder now, and I'm considering trying to neck size only too.

Neck sizing only is suppose to greatly increase the brass life. However, the cost of the brass is already down to about 6 cents each - so I don't know just how much benefit this process will be to me - especially since I'll also have to start annealing the cases in order to prevent neck splitting and to keep the accuracy consistent.

Still mulling it over.
 
Re: Load development for 6.5x47

Run all your brass through the rifle. If you can run the bolt with one finger neck size. If some are harder to chamber than you like minimum FL. Thats makes the most consistent ammunition.
BTW if you have 14 reloads on the same brass thats not bad. If your getting case head separation after two or three reloads time to tweak your program.