So with my auto trickler 95% off the time it's +-.02 or right one. I will usually fix it and make it right on 42.2 instead of letting it be 41.18 or 42.22. Any of you done a test to see if it even matters. Tonight I just dumped it and when I get to go to the range I'll test it, just wanting to hear what others have found.
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Load to the kernel or +-.02
- Thread starter Andrew863
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If you’re in a proper node, you’ll never see a difference between .1-.2gr, much less .02gr.
If you are seeing deviation, find another node or look elsewhere in your loading process for the culprit.
If you are seeing deviation, find another node or look elsewhere in your loading process for the culprit.
More than anything it matters what you are trying to do.
For the vast majority (with some exceptions) it doesn't matter. If however you are doing ELR or benchrest then it really matters.
However precise the game is, the ammo needs to match.
For the vast majority (with some exceptions) it doesn't matter. If however you are doing ELR or benchrest then it really matters.
However precise the game is, the ammo needs to match.
True, for steel under 1.5k which is what i do I dont think it will. Should’ve clarified
Doesn’t even matter for ELR when using super mag cartridges. The kernel weight is so small compared to powder capacity. 0.02gn of say 120gn case capacity is 0.016666666666667%. RL50 is around 0.063gn per kernel. That’s 0.0525% of 120gn case capacity. So, it matters even less with super mag cartridges. No one will tell a +- minus a kernel in this case let along +- a couple kernels. It’s so easy to load for ELR with a precision scale. The SD can be super low. It’ll make people think they know how to reload.
Thanks for all the replies. I'm shooting a 260 rem and we do shoot to a mile from time to time but most of the time 1500 and in.
Take 30 rounds loaded exactly to 42.2.
Take another 30, 15 of them 41.18 and 15 of them 42.22.
Run each set over chrono with same amount of time between shots and such.
See what the sd/es difference is (if any) between the two groups and plug numbers into your software. If the .04 range stuff is enough to miss your intended target at the intended range…..or put you put on the edges of the target giving you less room for error, then it matters.
If it doesn’t, then it doesn’t matter.
Take another 30, 15 of them 41.18 and 15 of them 42.22.
Run each set over chrono with same amount of time between shots and such.
See what the sd/es difference is (if any) between the two groups and plug numbers into your software. If the .04 range stuff is enough to miss your intended target at the intended range…..or put you put on the edges of the target giving you less room for error, then it matters.
If it doesn’t, then it doesn’t matter.
You can also just do the .04 test and see if it’s enough to matter. If not, you save 30 rounds.
If it is enough to matter, run the other test. If that’s too large of an sd/es, then either your process needs refining or the target size vs distance isn’t realistic for the ammunition you’re making.
If it is enough to matter, run the other test. If that’s too large of an sd/es, then either your process needs refining or the target size vs distance isn’t realistic for the ammunition you’re making.
That is my plant to do a test, I was just wanting to hear from other people that may have already tried this.
Probably not going to matter on the target but probably will between your ears.
What is the accuracy of your scale? What is the +/- listed in its paper work? +/- .02g would be pretty good resolution, for example i believe my Chargemaster +/- is .1g. So 40 could be 39.9 or 40.1.
In my 260 getting within +/- .1 (almost certainly worse as the Hornandy auto charge isn’t very precise) was good enough for some pretty amazing SD’s
At a mile vertical wasn’t a issue.
With my current cartridge each grain is about .06 and I’m not gonna dork out and start cutting grains.
At a mile vertical wasn’t a issue.
With my current cartridge each grain is about .06 and I’m not gonna dork out and start cutting grains.
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I have a study conducted by John J Ritter & Richard A Beyer at Arlington dated Sep 2015.
The study was "PRIMER OUTPUT & INITIAL PROJECTILE MOTION FOR 5.56 & 7.62-MM AMMUNITION".
On page 36 of the paper the SD of the # 41 primer is discussed & was calculated at 7,644.8 PSI.
We can only guess at this time as to the pressure SD of commonly used civilian primers but, they probably won't be too far off that mark.
So, does measuring down to the powder kernel matter when the primer variation alone is 7+KPSI ?
I would guess not but, that's up to you.
The study was "PRIMER OUTPUT & INITIAL PROJECTILE MOTION FOR 5.56 & 7.62-MM AMMUNITION".
On page 36 of the paper the SD of the # 41 primer is discussed & was calculated at 7,644.8 PSI.
We can only guess at this time as to the pressure SD of commonly used civilian primers but, they probably won't be too far off that mark.
So, does measuring down to the powder kernel matter when the primer variation alone is 7+KPSI ?
I would guess not but, that's up to you.
I feel this aligns with what I was discussing about super mag cartridges. It matters less for them and I would assume primer pressure SD would matter less as well for super mag cartridges. They just have more displacement to absorb the variations so the impacts appear less whereas smaller cartridges like the 556 do not have the high displacement and would be more sensitive to changes.
I agree.
I have other primer studies where the primer pressures measured for the 5.56 were considerably higher than 7.62 mm which, makes the situation much worse with regard to the ratio of powder charge pressure vs primer pressure.
I think it's safe to conclude that with 308 sized cases, primer pressure variance alone completely nullifies any powder charge pressure variation due to very small powder charge variation, even if it could be measured, which I doubt.
Going +/- .02gr won't affect anything you can measure. I ran this to ground about a year ago.
Throwing charges out of a LEE thrower with something like H4350 will throw +/- 0.2-0.3gr, with the bulk of them being +/- 0.15ish.
Weighing to THE number on the .02gr scales showed like... 1-2 FPS better SD. When you run them through a RCBS auto charger, or any electric scale that is +/- 0.1gr, it's arguable if you can see any difference in ES/SD vs. the .02gr scales-- if anything it's 1fps.
There is a correlation, albeit a weak one, between dispersion and how anal retentive you are on charge weight. More consistent charges produce marginally better precision on paper. I throw charges directly out of the manual thrower for 95% of my reloads. It's not worth my time. I would weigh if I shot ELR more seriously, or BR/FClass.
Throwing charges out of a LEE thrower with something like H4350 will throw +/- 0.2-0.3gr, with the bulk of them being +/- 0.15ish.
Weighing to THE number on the .02gr scales showed like... 1-2 FPS better SD. When you run them through a RCBS auto charger, or any electric scale that is +/- 0.1gr, it's arguable if you can see any difference in ES/SD vs. the .02gr scales-- if anything it's 1fps.
There is a correlation, albeit a weak one, between dispersion and how anal retentive you are on charge weight. More consistent charges produce marginally better precision on paper. I throw charges directly out of the manual thrower for 95% of my reloads. It's not worth my time. I would weigh if I shot ELR more seriously, or BR/FClass.
Hey Ledzep, I'm guessing you didn't use the widely accepted standard of about 1/2 dozen 3 shot groups in your testing?
I guess I'm the odd one out here. I already spend so much time and effort for precise reloads. It doesn't take much more effort to pour out a charge that is .02 over or put an extra grain in that is .02 under.
In my experience w the wide nodes i load in, doesn't matter w the 60-110 grain cartridges...Don't forget the variation w internal H20 capacity and humidity level in your powder being used. Humidity level will change a little w a 8Lb jug.
I use a RCBS Matchmaster to throw charges and Sartorius Entris that weighs to the 0.0000gn to check the charge weight.
You’re right. It doesn’t take much effort and the results are the results. I can take the charges exclusively from the Matchmaster without checking their weight with the Entris and it won’t influence the SD/ES negatively. It’s just an easy test to do it and I’ve done in the neighborhood of 10,000+ rounds.
If context matters then smaller displacement cartridges benefit more from self induced OCD than larger displacement cartridges.
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This is what I have always done till last night, it was much quicker. As long as my SD is right at the same I will be from here on out. I don't mind loading but I always like to fine ways to be more efficient.
There’s also a perception issue with how people budge their SD/ES. Typically, if you consider the qualitative examples of the internet, people test a 3-5 shot group and then claim that’s what the SD/ES are for that entire load.
Anyone who has taken a statistics class or have studied statistics on their own knows that a sample statistic isn’t the same as a population statistic. I don’t care to talk about the nuances of statistics but everyone should at least acknowledge that 3-5 shots is a very poor representation of the SD/ES of a particular load in its entirety.
But who wants to test a 30+ shot string just to run a fine toothed comb through it. That can be wasted resources considering no one out there is making millions off their SD/ES performance.
The main conclusions is that a 3-5 shot group might look amazing with a <5fps SD, <10fps ES, except those number will climb as the shot count increases. Beyond a poor statistical representation of a 3-5shot group, there are other reasons why the SD/ES changes. One is the changing bore condition that influences the bullet’s MV.
But that’s really outside of this discussion and yet it’s not hard to imagine copper stripping off a bullet, carbon acting like sand paper impacting MV, rifling being eroded, changing characteristics of bullet obturation, etc. BR shooters clean the f out of their barrels so maintain control over as many variables as possible and they’ll toss a barrel when inconsistencies are not controllable.
I think most realistic shooters accept there is a +- error to their statistics and accept that as long as the error is consistent then that’s ok.
I only bring this up because if you’re out there weighing to the kernel and think that’s the only thing impacting your MV & SD/ES then it’s going to be a very disappointing venture to maintain super low SD/ES.
However, if you’re weighing it the kernel then chances are you’re already doing a lot of things right and you’ll be producing respectable SD/ES. So, don’t pull your hair out trying to keep a load under 5 SD for every single shot you make.
It’s comical to see what the BR and F-class shooters do and don’t do based off a lot of the effort I’ve put in to find out it was wasted effort. I was stunned when I found out some of them don’t even clean their brass anymore. Yet, they’re out there setting world record groups and the competition is getting more competitive.
Anyone who has taken a statistics class or have studied statistics on their own knows that a sample statistic isn’t the same as a population statistic. I don’t care to talk about the nuances of statistics but everyone should at least acknowledge that 3-5 shots is a very poor representation of the SD/ES of a particular load in its entirety.
But who wants to test a 30+ shot string just to run a fine toothed comb through it. That can be wasted resources considering no one out there is making millions off their SD/ES performance.
The main conclusions is that a 3-5 shot group might look amazing with a <5fps SD, <10fps ES, except those number will climb as the shot count increases. Beyond a poor statistical representation of a 3-5shot group, there are other reasons why the SD/ES changes. One is the changing bore condition that influences the bullet’s MV.
But that’s really outside of this discussion and yet it’s not hard to imagine copper stripping off a bullet, carbon acting like sand paper impacting MV, rifling being eroded, changing characteristics of bullet obturation, etc. BR shooters clean the f out of their barrels so maintain control over as many variables as possible and they’ll toss a barrel when inconsistencies are not controllable.
I think most realistic shooters accept there is a +- error to their statistics and accept that as long as the error is consistent then that’s ok.
I only bring this up because if you’re out there weighing to the kernel and think that’s the only thing impacting your MV & SD/ES then it’s going to be a very disappointing venture to maintain super low SD/ES.
However, if you’re weighing it the kernel then chances are you’re already doing a lot of things right and you’ll be producing respectable SD/ES. So, don’t pull your hair out trying to keep a load under 5 SD for every single shot you make.
It’s comical to see what the BR and F-class shooters do and don’t do based off a lot of the effort I’ve put in to find out it was wasted effort. I was stunned when I found out some of them don’t even clean their brass anymore. Yet, they’re out there setting world record groups and the competition is getting more competitive.
I saw no real difference in my SD from an Hornandy auto charge to V3.
Maybe 1 fps SD on a 10 or 20 shot string.
To test ES and SD I like 10 strings and I usually do 2 of them on different days.
That said if your reloading program is decent you can infer a possible trend from a 5 shot string.
3 shots? pretty easy to get lied to by a load.
I think it’s possible for an experienced shooter to tell a lot from three shots. At least the perspective of if it’s bad within three shots then it’s not getting any better. But if you have really good results with three shots and no further testing has been done then it can definitely get worse. So conformation is always need.
I like your style. It’s economical and it provides enough detail to get to doing the thing we really want to do, shoot. I’ve seen a growing mentality amongst seasoned competitors: Test it at 100yds. If a few groups look good and the MV reading satisfy, they take it to distance and run with it. I personally am tired of splitting hairs with reloading so that’s my bias now.
I did some quickload computation to see how differences in case capacity or charge weight affects velocity in a 270 win cartridge. A .1gr increment change in charge weight resulted in a bit less than 10fps difference in velocity. A case capacity change of .5 gr volume resulted in a bit more than 10fps change. You might want to check all the variables to see if they are good enough to hide the noise of a .02 gr powder charge variation or kernel variation.
My powder ladders in 6mm ARC and 6.5 Creedmoor both show 8-11fps per tenth of powder with 20-35 shots at each interval so that sounds about right.
IIRC you get ~ +/- .15gr "for free" in a ARC-Creedmoor sized case. Like if you can get all of your charges within a .25-.30gr window you'll almost never be able to measure that it's worse (over a chronograph) than if you weigh to the kernel. Whether that's case volume or variation in CE -> KE transfer or whatever I don't know exactly. May be chronograph reading error, too.
IIRC you get ~ +/- .15gr "for free" in a ARC-Creedmoor sized case. Like if you can get all of your charges within a .25-.30gr window you'll almost never be able to measure that it's worse (over a chronograph) than if you weigh to the kernel. Whether that's case volume or variation in CE -> KE transfer or whatever I don't know exactly. May be chronograph reading error, too.
Probably a little of everything & maybe a thing or two we haven't accounted for yet.
Be careful about asking for other’s experiences before running your test. You’ll be surprised how much bias that can induce on how you interpret the results.
Humans like things to make sense and connect dots. Generally speaking, we don’t do well with the unknown and will take a completely illogical answer over not knowing. Hence conspiracy theories and such.
Not saying you can’t be objective, but it’s always better going into these tests without any sort of influenced ideas.
There’s guys out there, “with enough gold medals on the wall to know…” who cut kernels in HALF, and will say that’s what it takes to win, when in actuality there was only two guys at the match, and both know it was the bungee cord bipod that was the deciding factor.
have to spoil the fun, but labradar is only+/- 0.1% accurate.
this means that for bullet at 3000 fps, it can show anything from 2997 to 3003 fps....
this means that for bullet at 3000 fps, it can show anything from 2997 to 3003 fps....
Doesn’t matter.
If you test enough rounds you’ll be able to see if there’s a difference. Just like a comparator tool.
You’re almost smart enough to know things. But fall short every time.
Which is an ES of 6 and well within what most people are trying to accomplish with their loads.
I went from throwing and weighing charges on a Chargemaster Lite to recently picking up an FX120i and verifying charge weights. Have only loaded for a 17" barreled M1A since the change with H4895. I can verify that there are some charges but not all that have a variance of .04-.06 which is 2-3 kernels of powder. It's difficult to quantify just how much this matters on paper because I was in the middle of load testing for the rifle when I made the change but I do feel the ES has become more consistent. Most likely given that this is a very short barreled gas gun, there will be many other factors in what I see on target, especially at longer distances, so I won't lose any sleep over it.
What does matter to me is getting charges consistent to the kernel when loading for 300 Norma. Even though we are talking about a very small amount of contained energy per kernel, a powder like N570 has 3-4 times the density of a powder like H4895 and in my mind I want those charges to be as consistent as possible if I'm shooting to distances of a mile or greater.
What does matter to me is getting charges consistent to the kernel when loading for 300 Norma. Even though we are talking about a very small amount of contained energy per kernel, a powder like N570 has 3-4 times the density of a powder like H4895 and in my mind I want those charges to be as consistent as possible if I'm shooting to distances of a mile or greater.
Way too many other variables in reloading for a single kernel to matter.
absolutely right. but...
we have all the tools that weighting for a single kernel is not a problem anymore. so we can weight for 1 kernel easy, and focus and improve other things...
imho
You know this is the issue with forums. ( I am not talking about one single person or post in this thread but the thread as a whole. It started to hear what people found in testing and the results , after a few post turns into peoples opinions and them feeling validated when another person agrees with there opinion. Just something I find interesting lol. There is a lot of good info either way so thanks for the help guys.
Depends on my goal. I don’t weigh brass as most of the weight difference is in the rim. H2O can have some differences that matter. But depending on the brand, may be of no consequence. I’ll measure bullets, then trim/point. Seat primers the same depth and such. Then load to kernel.
That’s for serious load tweaking for tiny groups at distance.
For prs……as long as it’s .02 either way (and somtimes .04)…..it’s going in the case and I won’t notice it at all during a match.
I do keep my v4 and did keep my v3 setup to where it would mainly be under .02 or dead on, rarely ever overthrows to .02.
Yeah, in the sample I tested there was no significant difference between weight sorted, h20 sorted, annealed, neck turned, once fired cases vs. virgin cases. Both weighed to the kernel 20 shots each in the same day, same conditions (indoor 200yd range), same gun.
I'm firmly of the opinion at this point based on what I've seen so far that most all brass prep is a waste of time. Get some cases from the same lot and roll with it. I've also tracked a single case through 20 firings (AMP anneal every firing) and it shows the same or worse variation vs. 20 1st firing cases.
YMMV.
What about 20x fired case without annealing? I’m assuming some sort of difference.
For PRS, I’ve basically started just buying virgin brass, mandrel, chamber, load. Then selling the once fired for 80-90% value.
I don’t see a big enough difference to justify the time it takes to prep brass.
This is basically what some top BR & F Class guys have concluded. However, there’s some others that think self induced OCD will get them a win. I’m just sad I’ve wasted a lot of time doing things that didn’t matter.
Yet, they all seem to agree on having a barrel cleaning regimen critical.
20x without annealing is more like a 6-10x without annealing before it totally shits the bed and it's a steady velocity walk on the way. Much over 4x firings without annealing has serious potential to really start to skew ES/SD and avg MV.
