loaders of belted magnum's... HELP

[Niles Coyote]

I have been shooting my factory Remington 700 Long Range chambered in 7mm remington magnum and I am now on my 3 firing of the same 20 cases I started with and have an problem.

First firing, no issue... second, I had maybe a third of the cases not want to extract very easy... Third firing, every case was very hard to extract... almost like the brass was welding to the chamber wall. I am using a Redding body die to resize the case and bump the shoulder back .002-.003 and a bushing neck die to do the neck.

I know I am not running my load too hot as it now happens no matter what charge I use. I was doing OCW's from 68g thru 70g of H1000 with 168 smk's. Looking things over on the rifle I am not getting any help from the bolt handle in primary extraction which seems to be normal for Remington these days. (The bolt handle angle cut is not contacting the angle cut on the action- I assume that’s what smiths call primary extraction...) Brass and primers show no signs of over pressure, nor have I had to trim but a few after the first firing.

So I started to research which lead me to this, scroll down to the thrid product.
Innovative Technologies - Reloading Equipment

I have noticed that brass has been getting tighter to chamber and after reading about this Die maybe that is what is needed... But my concern is still going to be more extraction than chambering. I even thought of purchasing a headspace gauge (go and nogo) to check the barrel against and make adjustments if needed to see if that would help (since Remington likes to use .005-.006 over minimum).

Any thoughts... or better, experience with this???

 

[airmonkey13]

Since it looks like your not using a full length die. This is really needed. Friend of mine uses this die for that specific problem. His is more clambering issues on the 4th reload round. I have not made it to my 3rd reload yet.


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[dave300]

I agree!

Since it looks like your not using a full length die. This is really needed. Friend of mine uses this die for that specific problem. His is more clambering issues on the 4th reload round. I have not made it to my 3rd reload yet.


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[Niles Coyote]

Thanks guys, the redding body die does resize the case just like a full length dies would minus the neck... which is done with the neck bushing die. [MENTION=16853]airmonkey13[/MENTION] glad to hear it works for your friend for that issue. I read a lot about chambering issues but not so much on extraction...

 

[sermonator]

Be aware that the issue of headspace on belts can create problems. Sometimes the chamber is very close to the die's dimensions, sometimes not so much. I had a Rem.700 in 7mag that would blow the case in front of the belt if you didn't constantly check every case. Yes this will eventually separate, but I'm talking about 5 loads and "boom." I had RCBS make me a die from a fired case, the problem disappeared. The guy that made those custom dies told me that belted case ought to have to headspaces - one on the belt and the other on the shoulder. Not sure this has anything to do with your problem, but it might.

 

[hessian]

If you have trouble getting it out, it was too big going in.Try FL sizing and work on load and OAL. My Sendero needed 3.55 Oal w/ 180 Nosler. Most any powder. Any case.

 

[bigedp51]

The problem is the majority of belted magnum dies stop shy of the belt leaving a bulge above the belt the same size as the chamber. The Innovative Technologies Collet Resizing Die squeezes the pot belly above the belt and fixes this problem. "BUT" a custom die would fix this problem and the case could then headspace off the shoulder and not the belt and extend case life.

 

[1J04]

Nailed It !

The problem is the majority of belted magnum dies stop shy of the belt leaving a bulge above the belt the same size as the chamber. The Innovative Technologies Collet Resizing Die squeezes the pot belly above the belt and fixes this problem. "BUT" a custom die would fix this problem and the case could then headspace off the shoulder and not the belt and extend case life.

 

[DIBBS]

Niles-
I have one of the Willis collet dies and have the same problem with a 300 WM. It hasn't resolved my problem completely, but it has helped. (DAMN USELESS BELT ANYWAY!!!) I'm loading and shooting other rifles right now, prolly wont get back to the 300 WM till late spring or early summer. I would be happy to let you BORROW the die to try out before you purchase one or go the custom die rout. Shoot me a PM if you're interested. Craig

 

[sakobob]

i just ran into a similar problem with some once fired brass i purchased, it was fired from factory chambers
and i now have a pretty tight match chamber.the die niles coyote linked solved the issue.as said above it squeezes
the brass back to near new dimension just above the belt.
MR. niles, measure the diameter .030 above the belt i'm guessing it's going to be aprox .512-.514,if its then you will
need to get it back to .508-.510.that die will do it.if it's larger then .514 after you have full length sized it
then you will need to get a die that will size down to the belt (custom) the willis die may do it but it's going
to really take some effort and it's out of the dimension the die was designed to work.
a possible cheap fix for the brass over.514 is to get a cheap full length die and machine the inside out so the only thing
that touches the brass is the bottom 1/3 and then machine about .020-.040 off the bottom.
in short you will be making a small bass die for a belted magnum, then run it through the willis die.
depending on how many brass you have it will be up to you to decide if it's worth the trouble.
and as far as head spacing goes when using the reading full length die you only need to be bumping the
shoulder back .002 and that is how you will stop head spacing off the belt and extend your case life,i have 5
firing's on federal brass and no sign of separation (the infamous ring above the belt) but the primer pockets are scrap.

 

[mclevela]

I have loaded for dozens of belted magnums and never seen this issue or had the need for a collet die. It must be specific to some rifles for I cannot damn the belted magnum as the culprit.

Good luck, hope the collet die resolves your issue.

 

[7magsavage]

I have loaded for my 7mmRM for about four years now and ran into your exact problem. I initially tried to compensate by bumping the shoulder back more, but this was very obviously not the problem. I was about to trash about 150 pieces of Win brass because I could close and open the bolt after firing just fine but when I tried to extract the case I sometimes had to literally use a sand bag and beat the bolt back. I started noticing there were little scuff marks at the web area just forward of the belt. This got me to thinking. I measured the damn-near-impossible to extract case to a virgin case and found a significant size difference.
I very reluctantly bit the bullet and ordered the Innovative Technologies collet die. I used it as per the instructions (sizing the case and bumping the shoulders back two thou) and then using the collet die and found that the case would easily extract, but the bolt was hard to close and open. I used the Hornady headspace gauge and found out that when I sized the case with the collet die it was squeezing the brass forward and essentially bumping the shoulder back up. So, instead of full length sizing first, I used the collet die and THEN full length sized and problem solved. The case would feed and extract as smooth as virgin brass.
I have read some people's opinions on the collet die who have said that it is useless blah blah blah. Maybe in their rifle it was. But in my rifle it is essential. It paid for itself by allowing me to keep reloading the brass that I was about to trash.
My reloading method now after firing a case is: tumble, anneal, collet size, full length size to bump shoulders, clean primer pockets, trim if needed, chamfer/deburr, tumble, charge and then seat the bullet.
I haven't kept up with how many reloads I am getting out of my brass, but it has been a lot. If I had to guess I would say at least 10 reloads of off each piece of brass.
Hope this helps.

 

[mclevela]

This problem has to be a product of the rifle's chamber. The brass being unsupported just ahead of the belt.

For the $100 you will have in the collet die would it not be better to have the barrel set back and re-chambered or replace the barrel with either being performed by a competent gunsmith? No you can't have this work done for $100 but it would take care of some of it.

 

[7magsavage]

It may be a product of the chamber. But mine is a match barrel, not factory. And I personally don't think it would be worth the hassle to try to fix the problem through rechambering. It would be my luck that through that possess something else would get screwed up. Plus if its a problem of no support there (lack of material), then I can't see how that could be fixed. If it was an issue of being too tight and material was removed then I could understand how that could be fixed.
The collet die solved my problem without causing more headaches.

 

[anarchist]

I have loaded for my 7mmRM for about four years now and ran into your exact problem. I initially tried to compensate by bumping the shoulder back more, but this was very obviously not the problem. I was about to trash about 150 pieces of Win brass because I could close and open the bolt after firing just fine but when I tried to extract the case I sometimes had to literally use a sand bag and beat the bolt back. I started noticing there were little scuff marks at the web area just forward of the belt. This got me to thinking. I measured the damn-near-impossible to extract case to a virgin case and found a significant size difference.
I very reluctantly bit the bullet and ordered the Innovative Technologies collet die. I used it as per the instructions (sizing the case and bumping the shoulders back two thou) and then using the collet die and found that the case would easily extract, but the bolt was hard to close and open. I used the Hornady headspace gauge and found out that when I sized the case with the collet die it was squeezing the brass forward and essentially bumping the shoulder back up. So, instead of full length sizing first, I used the collet die and THEN full length sized and problem solved. The case would feed and extract as smooth as virgin brass.
I have read some people's opinions on the collet die who have said that it is useless blah blah blah. Maybe in their rifle it was. But in my rifle it is essential. It paid for itself by allowing me to keep reloading the brass that I was about to trash.
My reloading method now after firing a case is: tumble, anneal, collet size, full length size to bump shoulders, clean primer pockets, trim if needed, chamfer/deburr, tumble, charge and then seat the bullet.
I haven't kept up with how many reloads I am getting out of my brass, but it has been a lot. If I had to guess I would say at least 10 reloads of off each piece of brass.
Hope this helps.

Thanks for the detailed info. I just bought this die, but haven't used it yet.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Thanks for the info guys and [MENTION=18649]DIBBS[/MENTION] for the offer.

I ordered the die and will update my results once it arrives.

 

[glockdan78]

I have loaded for my 7mmRM for about four years now and ran into your exact problem. I initially tried to compensate by bumping the shoulder back more, but this was very obviously not the problem. I was about to trash about 150 pieces of Win brass because I could close and open the bolt after firing just fine but when I tried to extract the case I sometimes had to literally use a sand bag and beat the bolt back. I started noticing there were little scuff marks at the web area just forward of the belt. This got me to thinking. I measured the damn-near-impossible to extract case to a virgin case and found a significant size difference.
I very reluctantly bit the bullet and ordered the Innovative Technologies collet die. I used it as per the instructions (sizing the case and bumping the shoulders back two thou) and then using the collet die and found that the case would easily extract, but the bolt was hard to close and open. I used the Hornady headspace gauge and found out that when I sized the case with the collet die it was squeezing the brass forward and essentially bumping the shoulder back up. So, instead of full length sizing first, I used the collet die and THEN full length sized and problem solved. The case would feed and extract as smooth as virgin brass.
I have read some people's opinions on the collet die who have said that it is useless blah blah blah. Maybe in their rifle it was. But in my rifle it is essential. It paid for itself by allowing me to keep reloading the brass that I was about to trash.
My reloading method now after firing a case is: tumble, anneal, collet size, full length size to bump shoulders, clean primer pockets, trim if needed, chamfer/deburr, tumble, charge and then seat the bullet.
I haven't kept up with how many reloads I am getting out of my brass, but it has been a lot. If I had to guess I would say at least 10 reloads of off each piece of brass.
Hope this helps.

Thanks for the info on your order of operations. Helped me figure out something that was stumping me.

 

[Niles Coyote]

After examining my brass more I noticed these strange lines just forward of the belt.

There are two; the other is 180 degrees on the other side of the case. I tracked this down to the chamber wall. Only one was visible because of its location/position within the chamber on the chamber wall. The one I could see was just deep enough that with a long pick I could feel the recess. I have no idea how Remington does there chambering, but they sure let me down in Quality Control.
So, what to do... Should I send it back and wait... months...

Nope...

Last night I screwed off the barrel from the action and did a little polishing on the offending areas until they could no longer be seen or felt with my pick. After reassembly I loaded up two loads, five H1000 at 69.7 with 168 smk’s with some of the brass I have been having problems with. Prior to taking the barrel off I had loaded up seven of H4831sc at 65.6 with 168’s (Sierra’s accuracy load). Three of these on new brass and four on fired and resized brass on a standard full length sizer. The shoulder, BTW, was pushed back about .003 more than where I had been sizing on my body die on these four.

At my back yard 100y range I used the three new brass loads to zero my scope while recording velocity on my magnetospeed. The first shot was just off the paper and high and the next two can be seen near the center of the target. The four on the left are with H4831sc with the right being H1000. I still need to work on my recoil management as I pulled shots on both groups and knew it upon trigger press. So I will need to reshoot the H4831 load as I had two bad shooter induced shots there and the one that went wide on the 5 shot group was also a bad pull. So I am happy with that load. The H4831sc was going 2875fps on new brass. It will be interesting to see how much energy was used up fire forming that new brass to my chamber when I shoot it again on fire formed brass. I know with my 308’s I lose about 12-15fps on new brass but my 308’s are not stretching the brass .010 longer either. Anyway here is my target pic.

AND...

Polishing out the groves that were causing the lines in the brass fixed the hard extraction... They must have been just large enough to form a mechanical lock of sorts.

 

[Squid284]

I've had three 7RM's and my first one had the same symptoms. After the 2nd or 3rd reload, cases would be really hard to extract. At the time I was sizing with a standard RCBS FL die. After polishing the chamber (factory Remington) the issue went away and never came back. I later upgraded to using the fancy Redding dies and shellholders and still haven't had an issue since. I think the tolerances (and finish) of the chamber vs die play a big part.

I don't blame the belt, many do. I'm of the opinion it is cosmetic, especially after the first firing.

 

[ZiaHunter]

I use the Innovative Technologies collet die for 2 custom rifles in 300 WM. When I originally set up the die it was lengthening the FL sized case by approx. .001. I backed the die all the way into the press and gradually lowered it until the case barely drops into the top of the die without resistance. By doing so the maximum amount of lengthening was .0005. BTW I size my brass to headspace off the shoulder by .001 to .0015. I quit neck sizing several years ago and use bushing dies on turned necks.

 

[idahoorion]

Can't this also be done with a small base die in the caliber affected?

Idahoorion

 

[ezstreit]

Strange lines in brass

After examining my brass more I noticed these strange lines just forward of the belt.

There are two; the other is 180 degrees on the other side of the case. I tracked this down to the chamber wall. Only one was visible because of its location/position within the chamber on the chamber wall. The one I could see was just deep enough that with a long pick I could feel the recess. I have no idea how Remington does there chambering, but they sure let me down in Quality Control.
====================================
I noticed similar lines in my 300 Win Mag brass and was concerned but there were no other indications of over pressure. I am just starting to use belted magnums and this caliber. One lot of brass was new factory PP loaded ammo fired in my Winchester Laredo whose brass had similar lines after first firing and resizing. Another lot had the same lines and was new Norma brass fired in a brand new Browning A-bolt rifle loaded to Hornady starting load. Both rifles have stainless steel barrels. The 'pick feeler' test on the inside of the cases revealed nothing so I sawed a case in half and saw nothing on the case wall under the line on the outside. I then used an "Innovative Technologies" borescope and noticed what maybe an imperfection in the Browning chamber (hard to tell). One thought would be that manufacturers may subcontract parts, including barrels, to outside shops and the same shop used the same chamber reamer and/or technique.

 

[former naval person]

Had this years ago with a 700 Remmy in 7 Mag...the chamber was larger in the middle than at the entrance. Some wobble in the chambering reamer. Gunsmith spun the barrel in his lathe and ran a new reamer in. Took a minute bit off the mouth. Problem solved.

 

[culater]

Upgrade your brass to norma

 

[InkedIan]

tag for info

 

[gunnut1825]

Interesting!! Yesterday I shot my new Rem Long Range 7mm and had the same results. I was shooting factory Hornady ammo and would randomly get a stuck case after firing. I would have to bump the bolt handle with a mallet to extract the fired case. This would happen with various boxes also. So it wasn't happening with just one box. I left the range disappointed and started planning what my options are.

 

[Hondo64d]

I have loaded for my 7mmRM for about four years now and ran into your exact problem. I initially tried to compensate by bumping the shoulder back more, but this was very obviously not the problem. I was about to trash about 150 pieces of Win brass because I could close and open the bolt after firing just fine but when I tried to extract the case I sometimes had to literally use a sand bag and beat the bolt back. I started noticing there were little scuff marks at the web area just forward of the belt. This got me to thinking. I measured the damn-near-impossible to extract case to a virgin case and found a significant size difference.
I very reluctantly bit the bullet and ordered the Innovative Technologies collet die. I used it as per the instructions (sizing the case and bumping the shoulders back two thou) and then using the collet die and found that the case would easily extract, but the bolt was hard to close and open. I used the Hornady headspace gauge and found out that when I sized the case with the collet die it was squeezing the brass forward and essentially bumping the shoulder back up. So, instead of full length sizing first, I used the collet die and THEN full length sized and problem solved. The case would feed and extract as smooth as virgin brass.
I have read some people's opinions on the collet die who have said that it is useless blah blah blah. Maybe in their rifle it was. But in my rifle it is essential. It paid for itself by allowing me to keep reloading the brass that I was about to trash.
My reloading method now after firing a case is: tumble, anneal, collet size, full length size to bump shoulders, clean primer pockets, trim if needed, chamfer/deburr, tumble, charge and then seat the bullet.
I haven't kept up with how many reloads I am getting out of my brass, but it has been a lot. If I had to guess I would say at least 10 reloads of off each piece of brass.
Hope this helps.

I had a.257 Wby for a while. The brass would eventually expand in front of the belt to where chambering was difficult. I could fix it buy screwing my die down farther but this bumped the shoulder more than I like, which reduced case life. I bought a willis die. It worked pretty well, but what I eventually did was have my 'smith grind the top off a standard die. What this did was allow me to screw the die down far enough in the press to size the area just in front of the belt without bumping the shoulder. I used a separate die when it was necessary to bump the shoulder. This method worked better than the Willis die for me.

John

 

[Niles Coyote]

Interesting!! Yesterday I shot my new Rem Long Range 7mm and had the same results. I was shooting factory Hornady ammo and would randomly get a stuck case after firing. I would have to bump the bolt handle with a mallet to extract the fired case. This would happen with various boxes also. So it wasn't happening with just one box. I left the range disappointed and started planning what my options are.

Sorry to hear that. Get a small but bright flashlight and check your chamber for groves. If it is the same issue as mine the stuck cases may have groves on them pictured above. It didn't take too long to fix with a fine steel wool wrapped 50 cal bore brush and a drill to polish them away. If you have it professionally done and they remove the barrel you may want to also have them reset the headspace off shoulder if you reload your own.

QC at Remington is a joke, this and visible burrs on the tang and also where they drilled the scope mount hole should have been caught on mine. No reason for it as just a quick look would have caught them... As should the off center recoil lugs we keep seeing posted here and on another of my recent purchases.

 

[gunnut1825]

Hey Niles thanks for the suggestion. I took the stock off and inspected the chamber. I did not see any burrs or grooves in the chamber. I inspected the brass and found the case is actually bulged inward right before the belt. I can take my finger nail and feel it drop off right before the belt. On one side the case is not like this though. It appears to be maybe 300 degrees around the belt. I measured it with a dial caliber and see about a 1.5 thousands difference. This is weird since it is opposite of the bulge outward before the belt. I also thought I would have had clambering problems. I also inspected the new rounds and of course there is no bulge.

 

[Clark]

I have the innovative technology die, but don't use it.

I fire ~ 50 rounds of 7mmRM brass per year.
I will be young enough to hunt for 5 - 15 more years.
I have more than enough brass.

The max load per Hodgdon is 59 gr H4350 140 gr.
I am hunting with 70 gr.
That is 11 gr over.
The innovative technology die will not fix that so the brass will then fit in a smaller rifle.
So when I shoot the brass, it is done.
I am still 2 gr below loose primer pockets or extra bolt lift effort, so it is safe.

I have some factory 7mmRM rifles and two 7mmRM reamers, but I try to standardize by just shooting the rifles I built with one reamer and .215" headspace.
But this year I got a shipment of brass that measured .220".
I am going to quarantine that.