Loads falling apart at distance.

[Hawk in WY]

I am pushing the 6.5 Creedmoor to one mile just because I can.

Loading 147 ELD-M long at 2.89.

No pressure signs but QUICKload adjusted for velocity shows I’m loading close to maximum SAAMI pressures.

What I’m seeing is half MOA loads fall apart at 500 yards. Half MOA group at 100 becomes two feet vertical, zero horizontal at 500. One grain less powder and I’m getting nice round, half MOA groups.

Obvious advice is to shoot the lower velocity load but I’m wondering why two half MOA groups at 100 are so different at 500. Both loads are single digit standard deviation at 100 but obviously not at 500.

Anyone seen this or have any advice?

 

[j-dubya]

Did you chronograph during development?

 

[Hawk in WY]

I did but at 100 yards. I don’t think the magnetospeed records much beyond that and es at 100 should be the same as 500.

Both loads had standard deviations of 8 to 14 depending on which five shot group I was measuring.

My own guess is incomplete powder burn at max pressure. Why it would show up at 500 not 100 is a mystery to me.

 

[Steel head]

ES?

To show prominently at 500 it would have to be atrocious.

I’ve seen multiple factory loads do respectably at a mile +
The Hornandy has an SD of 14 or so.

For my long range load development Idont even shoot groups.
I see what they do at distance and see what the speeds tell me.

 

[morganlamprecht]

something doesnt sound right here...

how many times did you verify this? ie 1- 5 shot groups? 10- 5 shots groups? etc

i could load match bullets with a hammer and a spoon and i still dont think the load itself would cause 24" of vertical at 500 yds...especially coming off 1/2 moa at 100

it almost sounds like the faster speed is destroying/distorting your bullet...but id think that would show in some windage variation also...idk, something is off

 

[918v]

You people need to learn how to read and comprehend English. He said his loads have single digit SD, but one prints a 2’ group at 500.

It’s a barrel tuning issue.

 

[Steel head]

something doesnt sound right here...

how many times did you verify this? ie 1- 5 shot groups? 10- 5 shots groups? etc

i could load match bullets with a hammer and a spoon and i still dont think the load itself would cause 24" of vertical at 500 yds...especially coming off 1/2 moa at 100

it almost sounds like the faster speed is destroying/distorting your bullet...but id think that would show in some windage variation also...idk, something is off

My AR loads with tragic SD’s have almost unnoticeable vertical at 500

I agree
Something is fishy.

 

[Steel head]

You people need to learn how to read and comprehend English. He said his loads have single digit SD, but one prints a 2’ group at 500.

It’s a barrel tuning issue.

Barrel tuning getting 2’ of vertical at 500
Is he shooting bullets through a McDonald’s straw?

 

[Tokay444]

147s have a history of blowing up. Do any of the holes at 500 appear keyholed?

 

[918v]

Barrel tuning getting 2’ of vertical at 500
Is he shooting bullets through a McDonald’s straw?

you’re right he should just chrono his loads some more

 

[Steel head]

you’re right he should just chrono his loads some more

I’m curious if I’m skilled enough to develop a load that has 2’ of vertical at 500 yards.
That’s impressive!

 

[brianf]

Also...not taking shots at you...

How often have you shot at that distance.

What your ability at 500.

Is it a 2’ up/down but a 1’ left right as well.

I’ve seen guys print tiny groups at 100 and shot over targets at 600 with FGMM. What the school suggested you brought down to shoot.

Their position and follow through was off etc..

 

[Olen_4504]

as soon as he mentioned the 147s - I believe that should be investigated more.

 

[Dthomas3523]

If I had to guess, it’s a stability issue that you’re just not seeing on the paper at 100 and further distance shows you the spread.

Tuning could be possible, but that usually shows up fairly easy to see. Can also usually be fixed with seating depth. Dropping the charge weight could also change the timing/tuning. So, it’s possible. Though 2ft sounds more like a bullet stability issue.

 

[morganlamprecht]

as soon as he mentioned the 147s - I believe that should be investigated more.

this was my first thought with the long hornady's...

 

[Steel head]

Also...not taking shots at you...

How often have you shot at that distance.

What your ability at 500.

Is it a 2’ up/down but a 1’ left right as well.

I’ve seen guys print tiny groups at 100 and shot over targets at 600 with FGMM. What the school suggested you brought down to shoot.

Their position and follow through was off etc..

I think this is the issue

 

[Steel head]

as soon as he mentioned the 147s - I believe that should be investigated more.

When I was having issues with them 9 would group perfectly and 1 would randomly key hole in or just not make it.

 

[morganlamprecht]

When I was having issues with them 9 would group perfectly and 1 would randomly key hole in or just not make it.

i had the same with some 88s...80% of them great, the other 20%...who knew...

 

[spife7980]

Thats why I do most my development at 500 on paper now.

 

[Steel head]

i had the same with some 88s...80% of them great, the other 20%...who knew...

I was about 40% who knew with the 180’s

I didn’t know the 88’s we’re going poof as well

 

[morganlamprecht]

seems to be a common theme with any of the longer than usual hornadys

 

[918v]

I’m curious if I’m skilled enough to develop a load that has 2’ of vertical at 500 yards.
That’s impressive!

maybe if you had a funny muzzle device you too could develop that kind of accuracy

 

[Steel head]

maybe if you had a funny muzzle device you too could develop that kind of accuracy

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Thats why I do most my development at 500 on paper now.

200 at a minimum for verification. A lot of stringing and other odd issues show up at 200 that don't show up at 100.

20 shots at 200 has always been a reliable indicator for me.

 

[Hawk in WY]

Lots to investigate.

No muzzle device in this case but I have seen the same thing with loose suppressors. Good thought.

I can and do put other bullets in other rifles into two to three inches at 500. In fact, same bullet, same rifle, same day with a little over one grain less powder holds three to four inches at 500. I don't think it's me.

I'm guessing I'm crossing some magic velocity (around 3,000 fps actually) that's either blowing up or destabilizing the bullet. The impact on the plate is more of an explosion than the bullet spot plus splatter you usually see. I have seen keyholing before but never at 500 yards. One in eight twist at 6,200 feet should be fine, however.

The pattern is three rounds at around three inches in a six-inch circle with two to three rounds at the bottom of the plate over a foot low, usually the first two or three in a string. I said two feet. It's more like 18 inches.

Something is happening to the 147 ELD-M at around 3,000 fps.

I have shot this bullet to one mile previously but it seems something is happening in this combination of rifle, bullet and velocity.

Anyone else see this?

 

[morganlamprecht]

Sounds like a recurring theme with the extra long/heavy hornady’s

Seems to be lot to lot dependent also based on user reports

 

[Hondo64d]

Thats why I do most my development at 500 on paper now.

Exactly...

John

 

[rjacobs]

Hornady does A LOT of bullet testing. Wonder what their thoughts would be if you contacted them.

 

[spife7980]

Hornady does A LOT of bullet testing. Wonder what their thoughts would be if you contacted them.

Its been a concern since they came out so I doubt they will do anything now a couple years later. Rumor is that they use the same jacket for the 140 and the 147 so the 147 gets stretched thinner in comparison and is thus more prone to failure in aggressive twists and rough used barrels.

 

[Thorbeast]

Sounds to me like bullet failure. I'm sure you are getting complete powder burn. Nothing is probably loose (sounds like other loads shoot right, and I think you would see symptoms of loose screws at 100 yards). If the load shoots well at a lower velocity, it's probably not a stability issue, since higher velocity means more stability. I don't think you could develop a load that has 2 feet of vertical at 500 if you tried (assuming the bullet doesn't fail and you don't have loose screws somewhere). I remember reading several reports of these 147s failing at 6.5 PRC velocities...

I think the only solution is to shoot the bullet at a slower velocity (Is the marginal velocity increase really needed to reach 1 mile?). If you aren't getting the performance you want from the slower loaded 147 at 1 mile, switch to a different bullet. I bet you will get better shot to shot consistency from a 144 Berger or ATIP anyway.

 

[PAYDIRT]

Thats why I do most my development at 500 on paper now.

YES. But look out, last time I talked about loads falling apart at distance all the frat bros lost their minds.

 

[Hawk in WY]

I will drop back to the lower node. The 147 ELD-M does seem to have problems over 3,000 fps.

I'm about to see how the new Barnes 145 Match bullet works in my rifles particularly the 6.5 PRC.

Thank you to all who helped solve this mystery.

 

[spife7980]

I will drop back to the lower node. The 147 ELD-M does seem to have problems over 3,000 fps.

I'm about to see how the new Barnes 145 Match bullet works in my rifles particularly the 6.5 PRC.

Thank you to all who helped solve this mystery.

Does every load fall apart at distance or just your chosen 100 yard load?

 

[Hawk in WY]

Only the top load with velocity close to 3,000 fps seems to lead to bullet failure 20 to 30% of the time and only at 500 yards.

The lower node around 150 fps slower does fine.

 

[_Raining]

Only the top load with velocity close to 3,000 fps seems to lead to bullet failure 20 to 30% of the time and only at 500 yards.

The lower node around 150 fps slower does fine.

3000 fps with a 147 in 6.5 creedmoor, what the actual fuck.

 

[Steel head]

3000 fps with a 147 in 6.5 creedmoor, what the actual fuck.

 

[_Raining]

I am impressed he has not blown himself up.

 

[ken226]

 

[Hawk in WY]

I am impressed he has not blown himself up.

Not likely.

Reloder 26 is magic stuff.

I do realize velocity equals pressure.

Quickload is my guide. COAL of 2.891 is the key.

Obviously at the top end but no repeat no pressure signs beyond flat primers.

Nevertheless, I'm backing down to a saner load.

 

[CMP70306]

So is the 3,000 FPS the magic number for issues? I was just getting ready to load 300 rounds with the 147gr ELD-M in my PRC for a long range shooting class and since I’m limited to 3,000 FPS I was running them just under that. However after reading the above now I’m wondering if I should look at the 156 Berger because I really don’t want to have issues at the class.

 

[Steel head]

So is the 3,000 FPS the magic number for issues? I was just getting ready to load 300 rounds with the 147gr ELD-M in my PRC for a long range shooting class and since I’m limited to 3,000 FPS I was running them just under that. However after reading the above now I’m wondering if I should look at the 156 Berger because I really don’t want to have issues at the class.

I had issues at 2800 with them.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Not likely.

Reloder 26 is magic stuff.

I do realize velocity equals pressure.

Quickload is my guide. COAL of 2.891 is the key.

Obviously at the top end but no repeat no pressure signs beyond flat primers.

Nevertheless, I'm backing down to a saner load.

This reads suspiciously like some guy on FB claiming he was running “safe” loads with a-tips at 2950 in a 6.5cm with “magic” rl26.

Shit is over pressure. Running things that hot and hinging your “safety” on pressure signs that have been proven to not always show up is naive at best.

 

[Hawk in WY]

This reads suspiciously like some guy on FB claiming he was running “safe” loads with a-tips at 2950 in a 6.5cm with “magic” rl26.

Shit is over pressure. Running things that hot and hinging your “safety” on pressure signs that have been proven to not always show up is naive at best.

This load is over manual maximums but not by much. This is why I have avoided providing load data.

Whether this load is over SAAMI maximum or is unsafe are harder questions to answer.

COAL of 2.89 and Hornady brass with unusually large case capacity factor into this judgment.

The load was worked up very slowly guided by velocity adjusted QuickLOAD data. Not a perfect guide but part of the judgment.

I do not rely on pressure signs simply because when you experience locked bolts or ejector marks you are already in unsafe territory.

The flattened primers caused me to back down.

All that said, I do not disagree this load appears to be over SAAMI max pressures.

 

[skidhc]

SD at the muzzle and SD downrange are two completely different things. Last fall, Applied Ballistics brought their mobile radar setup to Altus and it was an eye opening experience. If I understood/remember correctly, BC variations cause the largest variation in downrange SDs.

 

[918v]

Not 2 feet worth

 

[ken4570tc in WY]

Its been a concern since they came out so I doubt they will do anything now a couple years later. Rumor is that they use the same jacket for the 140 and the 147 so the 147 gets stretched thinner in comparison and is thus more prone to failure in aggressive twists and rough used barrels.

This I believe to be the best answer. I was at a 1000 yard benchrest competition in Colorado several years back and one of the guys from Hornady was using a new rifle with a new Hornady bullet. All I can remember was it was the first time ever saw bullets come apart about thirty feet from the muzzle. Just a puff of grey liquefied/vaporized lead. It was presumed that, sharp edges on lands + thin match jackets + too high velocity + fast rate of twist = repeatable bullet failure. I suspect that the OP's situation is right on the edge of weakening and deforming some of the jackets causing vertical flyers and odd terminal performance. If wants to keep shooting them, he will have to keep the velocity down as he suggested.

 

[sandwarrior]

This reads suspiciously like some guy on FB claiming he was running “safe” loads with a-tips at 2950 in a 6.5cm with “magic” rl26.

Shit is over pressure. Running things that hot and hinging your “safety” on pressure signs that have been proven to not always show up is naive at best.

I don't think it's overpressure. But, I sure do think you can't get enough RE26 smashed into that case to really do any good. Alliant doesn't give any data on that powder in that case.

Magic indeed...

Added: I corrected my grammer

 

[Steel head]

I don't think it's overpressure, but I sure do think you can't get enough RE26 smashed into that case to really do any good. Alliant doesn't give any data on that powder in that case.

Magic indeed...

In the name of science I’m gonna have to experiment with R26 in the cartridge of the gods.
I’ll start at 44 grains.

 

[ubettcha]

I did but at 100 yards. I don’t think the magnetospeed records much beyond that and es at 100 should be the same as 500.

Both loads had standard deviations of 8 to 14 depending on which five shot group I was measuring.

My own guess is incomplete powder burn at max pressure. Why it would show up at 500 not 100 is a mystery to me.

Please explain what you mean by "I did but at 100 yards. I don’t think the magnetospeed records much beyond that and es at 100 should be the same as 500"
How are you setting up your magneto speed? How are you arriving at a SD of 8? How are you arriving at 14?
I ran Rl26 in my last creed.
I ran danzac coated 147's in Peterson brass with a 215m with coals @ 2.855 2853fps es 6 over 10 shots. This was my first sweet spot. 300rds in I dropped down .8 and backed off my coal to 2.840. My es (9)still was single digit but shot better with less carbon build up on the crown. I would see issues at >700yds after 80 rounds in a match with a hot barrel. with the original load I tried.
In Peterson brass with naked bullets anything above 45.5 of RL26 in fireformed brass is above where you should be. In Hornady or WInchester brass you have more capacity so many of the "Internet loads" won't blow a primer, however much higher than 46.0 in Peterson brass with the 147 will destroy the brass in short order with speeds in faster barrels getting upwards of high 2800's to low 2900's At 2.855 both of these are compressed even using a 2' drop tube. You'd be halfway up the neck without some form of compressing the powder before seating the bullet.
Now not because it is optimum but I'm running Rl19 with coated 147s between 2765 and as of Saturday 2810fps in 70 degrees vs 25. My es creeped up to 14 and the group opened to 1/2 moa 10 shot group @ 200 yds in 12-15mph winds.
I choose RL19 because I have over 30 pounds and this is the stock barrel. Load development consisted of reading the Serria data for the 150 smk using Win brass vs starline (more volume) using a cci primer loading 1 grain less and seating the 147 to whatever the seater was set up at. This produced a coal of 2.830 and has shot very very well. In the colder weather at distance it has shown very good vertical. Below is 10 from the creed on the left centered up and 10 from my 308 both at 200yds. Bth rifles had .2 right dialed and I held another .2 with the 308. I didn't with the creed.

 

[Rem2429]

The only time I have seen anything like what you are describing was when a suppressor started to get loose.
My first thought was for the load as well, but it wasn’t...