A few days ago, was a bad day. I had to implement my alternate plan for firearms access. I could not open my Scheels brand safe (Champion). My dial mechanism failed. It took me 3 hours to get the safe open with the help of a large rubber mallet. I called champion the next day, and yes, they could not help over the phone. The technician told me that it sounded like the dial mechanism slipped a number. I held the door open and locked it and went through the checks with customer service on the phone to no avail. This is my second safe lockout in two years, the other one was my Cannon key pad died on me. I got both safe s open and I did not have get the heavy tools out. In both times I would have been in a world of hurt If I needed my guns in a hurry. It is time for me to consider a quality safe that will last. One lock smith I spoke to said that even the quality safe can go bad even when new. What I learned was, the first indicator of trouble call a lock smith to check things out and have a idea on how to get into your safe on your own. I quick shot of CLP spray sold the problem for me. I was quoted the price of $69.00 for replacement touch pad that I could install my self and $199.00 for a new dial mechanism that must be installed by a lock smith. Any of you guys had a similar nightmare?
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Locked out of my Safe (Not a good day)
- Thread starter alexander66
- Start date
Bite the bullet and have the locksmith install a good Sargent and greenleaf 6730 dial lock. Not to say it will never fail because it is a mechanical device, but that lock is used on everything from gun safes to bank vaults.
The locksmith was correct. Any safe or vault door can have a failure at any time and it may not be the locks fault. The roll pin that attaches the linkage to the handle can work out. Then the lock is unlocked but the bolts can't be withdrawn. I've seen more issues caused by mechanical problems than lock problems.
The locksmith was correct. Any safe or vault door can have a failure at any time and it may not be the locks fault. The roll pin that attaches the linkage to the handle can work out. Then the lock is unlocked but the bolts can't be withdrawn. I've seen more issues caused by mechanical problems than lock problems.
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I'm completely ignorant to these types of problems. I bought a Liberty, "manual" lock in about 1990 and I have no experience with any electronic locks. It seems as though people are having failures with digital/electronic locks and that manual style locks are no longer available. Is that true ?
Based on what little I have paid attention/seen, I have zero interest in anything with an electronic lock. Am I missing something ?
Based on what little I have paid attention/seen, I have zero interest in anything with an electronic lock. Am I missing something ?
I dont know about current dealer floor equipment. You might have to special order to get the manual lock, it might not be a stock item.
The locks themself are readily available for retrofit. I'd say if the locksmith is in town 199-250 installed would be fair based on cost of the lock, parts markup, install time and service call charge. Probably take about an hour.
If you have one of those foot hinges pistol holders, remove it cause the back of the door has to come off.
The locks themself are readily available for retrofit. I'd say if the locksmith is in town 199-250 installed would be fair based on cost of the lock, parts markup, install time and service call charge. Probably take about an hour.
If you have one of those foot hinges pistol holders, remove it cause the back of the door has to come off.
There are good locks and there are cheap locks. Both dial and electronic. Other than needing a battery once every other year electronic locks can be built to last just as long a dial lock.
The rating of the lock is important for security, but it also gives some insight into how well built the lock is:
Undisclosed rating = pure junk. Used purely for cost cutting reasons.
Some type 2 electronic and group 2M dials have good build quality, some are marginal.
Most type 1 electronic locks and group 1 dial locks are built to last.
Type 1F and group 1R offer the best resistance to break ins and usually the best build quality, kinda expensive for just a lock though.
I'm I'm reading the OPs post right, the one that failed was a mechanical dial lock, not electronic. Maybe I misread?
I retrofitted my safe with a Rotobolt doomsday lock. It was cheap, but did take a little mill and lathe work to retrofit the relocker to fit the new lock.
The mechanical dial and electronics are independent of each other. If one fails, the other can open the safe. It's a group 2m lock. The outside exposed parts are cheap made and sacrificial, the the lock mechanism itself seems decent quality.
LP PREMIER REDUNDANT 4-WHEEL/GROUP 2M COMBINATION LOCK PACKAGE W/ BRIGHT CHROME KEYPAD
MBA USA, Inc. is a provider of locks, tools and training for locksmiths and security professionals.
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I worked part time for Diebolds when I was young.
I bought a couple of used safes from the service department for scrap prices.
I cleaned and oiled the clocks and locks in my safes that are from the late 30's.
I have no worries about them not ever working, unless someone tries to drill them and hits the refire.
I had an electronic lock fail on a low end Cannon safe. It was a slow death though thankfully, so I was eventually able to get it to unlock without resorting to force. The mechanism wouldn't always acutate with enough force to unlock so I would have to sometimes hit the combo a second time. Well one day it just wouldn't unlock anymore. I could hear it clicking like it was trying, but it just wouldn't work. Thankfully I didn't really need to get into it at the time. Over the course of a week or so I would input the combo every time I walked by (in the shop at work, so pretty frequently) and finally one day it released. Cannon was very helpful and sent a new (different brand) keypad to replace it.
My Scheels brand safe (Champion) came with Sargent and Greenleaf 6700 dial lock, I will be calling them to see if it is just a swap out to upgrade to the 6730 series. The Cannon came with the electronic pad, and failed in that it would not lock. We expect the safe to keep the unauthorized out, and when you want in you get in, it is sick feeling when the combination does not work. I am fortunate to have the skill set that enabled me to get in, short cutting it open. The fact is mechanical things will fail.
My Browning Medallion with S&G keypad is starting to do this. I need to make a call in the A.M.
Former locksmith here. I would recommend a Sargent & Greenleaf mechanical dial for reliability. Anything mechanical can fail, but I have never seen one of those locks stop working except when it was designed to stop working (attempted forced entry). Have the locksmith set a combination that is easy for you to dial. Then dial it often so you can do so quickly when under pressure.
Same lock it is 67xx series the last 2 digits designate dial and ring IRC
Unless the lock has the plastic anti xray wheels or someone playing around with the back of the lock off, the chances of a slipped wheel are pretty low. Plus the entry procedure for a slipped wheel doesn't involve a hammer.
It sounds like the dial ring has been hit and/or the dial spindle is bent. This will cause the dial to be difficult to turn and by changing the relationship between where the numbers and mark line up to be off from when the combination was set. If you have a reference mark on the door, a couple taps with fine adjustment tool and trying the combo with numbers slightly larger or smaller and you can get in fairly quickly.
If it is only gonna cost you 200 to get the locksmith to replace/repair the lock it is worth it. You are looking at 1000+ if he has to come out and drill. Repairs when the door is open are cheap and easy. If the door is closed then it is the opposite. Call the locksmith when you first have the problem.
Packratt
"It sounds like the dial ring has been hit and/or the dial spindle is bent. This will cause the dial to be difficult to turn and by changing the relationship between where the numbers and mark line up to be off from when the combination was set. If you have a reference mark on the door, a couple taps with fine adjustment tool and trying the combo with numbers slightly larger or smaller and you can get in fairly quickly."
Sounds like what my problem is. I am one digit off on all of my numbers.
"It sounds like the dial ring has been hit and/or the dial spindle is bent. This will cause the dial to be difficult to turn and by changing the relationship between where the numbers and mark line up to be off from when the combination was set. If you have a reference mark on the door, a couple taps with fine adjustment tool and trying the combo with numbers slightly larger or smaller and you can get in fairly quickly."
Sounds like what my problem is. I am one digit off on all of my numbers.
I wouldn't either. In the 30's they didn't use cheap plastic internals to cut costs...
My Liberty came with a dial but I had it changed to a day pad. The key pad failed three times before I had the original dial put back on. The locksmith that did it not only cut me a break of the price but changed all three of my safes to the same combination.
I have a very old Winchester safe With a dial that my dad handed down to me. He started having trouble opening it and would sometimes have my mom try who would have better luck.
Turns out that the safe was opened enough that I guess the mechanism changed the middle number by one digit and my mom wasn’t as precise as my dad when turning the dial.
Using the new combination, I haven’t had an issue in 10 years.
Turns out that the safe was opened enough that I guess the mechanism changed the middle number by one digit and my mom wasn’t as precise as my dad when turning the dial.
Using the new combination, I haven’t had an issue in 10 years.
S&G for the win. Worth the money. My safe is an old Cannon when they were made here in the USA. 1/4” thick steel all around. Got it used and paid the 250 for the locksmith to put in a new Sargent and Greenleaf. Don’t skimp on a safe lock or brakes on your vehicle for the same reason.
The good thing is they have a business and are likely registered/licensed with the state. If theres shenanigans, then you give that info to the police. Simple.
Or, become a locksmith, and do it yourself ? then you'll be able to be the weirdo entering people's homes to set their combo
My friend owns a safe company. Through him I learned several things.
Use a good Sergeant and Greenleaf dial lock.
If you are thinking about busting out heavy tools, get a heavier duty safe because any serious crook who knows what he is doing can break into your safe. I could probably break into yours in 10 minutes with a small backpack of tools.
Find a good local safe guy or locksmith and get him to service your lock every year or two or have him teach you how to do it.
Have the safe guy remove the relocker from your safe locking mechanism. This device can be tripped by a sharp blow to the safe (such as tipping or you trying to open a stuck lock) and if it does you will have to have someone crack your safe. I had this done to mine as the door is 1.5” solid steel plate and if that things trips shut it will be expensive to open.
If you are looking to upgrade safes PM me as my friend can drop ship to you really cheap and he makes his stuff from scratch here in the US.
Use a good Sergeant and Greenleaf dial lock.
If you are thinking about busting out heavy tools, get a heavier duty safe because any serious crook who knows what he is doing can break into your safe. I could probably break into yours in 10 minutes with a small backpack of tools.
Find a good local safe guy or locksmith and get him to service your lock every year or two or have him teach you how to do it.
Have the safe guy remove the relocker from your safe locking mechanism. This device can be tripped by a sharp blow to the safe (such as tipping or you trying to open a stuck lock) and if it does you will have to have someone crack your safe. I had this done to mine as the door is 1.5” solid steel plate and if that things trips shut it will be expensive to open.
If you are looking to upgrade safes PM me as my friend can drop ship to you really cheap and he makes his stuff from scratch here in the US.
I have a Liberty with a S&G electronic lock that does this same thing. Occasionally have to enter combo twice. Its annoying but its been like that as long as I can remember and never actually failed.
The other annoyance is that the handle has to be rotated all the way counterclockwise until it hits the stops before you can unlock. If its rotate the tiniest bit clockwise then the unlocking mechanism binds and it won't unlock. You have to then turn the handle to the stops, wait for the mechanism to reset and then enter the code again.
depending on the safe you could try cracking it
there a few others on you tube could be worth a try at worst it don't work at best it does and you can keep the money you would have paid a smith good luck .
or
there a few others on you tube could be worth a try at worst it don't work at best it does and you can keep the money you would have paid a smith good luck .
or
I’ve had my keypad battery die on a morning I was planning to deer hunt. Very frustrating to say the least! I now change the battery out once a year and keep a spare 9v in a junk drawer. Took the bow, didn’t see any deer, so it ended up ok.
I have had a Winchester with the electronic pad for the last 10-12 years and it’s been great. I do have a couple family members that have had keypad issues on the newer smaller/cheap cannons.
I have had a Winchester with the electronic pad for the last 10-12 years and it’s been great. I do have a couple family members that have had keypad issues on the newer smaller/cheap cannons.
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The locksmith told me the S&G electronic pad has a bunch of cheap plastic parts inside. Having to move the rods and levers inside the door, over time, puts to much stress on the plastic parts and causes them to either break or to not produce the e ergo it takes to unlock the door. Mine went straight in the garbage and I ne ver looked back.
As far as the locksmith that came out and did the changes he wasn't a stranger and he is trusted. BTW, I moved shortly after the locks were set and he doesn't know where.
I've worked for a safe company for probably 12 or so years on a part time basis doing sales, installations, moving, and service. As others have said, anything that is mechanical can and will require maintenance eventually, and will fail if that maintenance is not performed.
For mechanical locks, if you're dialing the combo precisely and it isn't unlocking, try dialing +1 and -1 on each number, then try combining them (first number +1, second number +1, third number dead on, etc...). It'll take awhile, but it's damn sure faster (not to mention cheaper) than having to call someone. For electronic locks, make sure you get one that's UL listed, and change the battery regularly (I recommend changing safe lock and smoke detector batteries twice a year, whenever we go through a time change).
Oh, and when setting combos, our method is to either talk the person through the procedure while our back is to them (electronic locks), or stand on the back side of the safe door and do our bit as they dial/set each number (mechanical locks). This guarantees that only the owner knows the combo... in fact, given that setting the combo is usually the last thing done before collecting payment, I (as the assistant installer) am usually either loading our tools/equipment back on the truck, or sitting in the truck when the combo is set. Once again, the idea here is that as few people as possible are around when the combo is set, reducing the odds that anyone other than the owner could possibly know it.
For mechanical locks, if you're dialing the combo precisely and it isn't unlocking, try dialing +1 and -1 on each number, then try combining them (first number +1, second number +1, third number dead on, etc...). It'll take awhile, but it's damn sure faster (not to mention cheaper) than having to call someone. For electronic locks, make sure you get one that's UL listed, and change the battery regularly (I recommend changing safe lock and smoke detector batteries twice a year, whenever we go through a time change).
Oh, and when setting combos, our method is to either talk the person through the procedure while our back is to them (electronic locks), or stand on the back side of the safe door and do our bit as they dial/set each number (mechanical locks). This guarantees that only the owner knows the combo... in fact, given that setting the combo is usually the last thing done before collecting payment, I (as the assistant installer) am usually either loading our tools/equipment back on the truck, or sitting in the truck when the combo is set. Once again, the idea here is that as few people as possible are around when the combo is set, reducing the odds that anyone other than the owner could possibly know it.
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Cheap safes are cheap for a reason.
Do not keep your emergency firearm in a safe.
False walls, hidden doors, etc are more effective.
My buddy bolted his safe to the concrete floor in his shop. The kids smoked it with a 4 wheeler and activated the relocker and smashed the dial. We had it open in 15 minutes while drinking beer with tools from the bench across the room. Grinder to cut the side out, hammer to smash the sheetrock, and a cold chisel too get the inner layer.
His safe is now very well disguised and hidden from view. It was mind blowing how easy it was too get it open even being careful to not damage anything inside.
Do not keep your emergency firearm in a safe.
False walls, hidden doors, etc are more effective.
My buddy bolted his safe to the concrete floor in his shop. The kids smoked it with a 4 wheeler and activated the relocker and smashed the dial. We had it open in 15 minutes while drinking beer with tools from the bench across the room. Grinder to cut the side out, hammer to smash the sheetrock, and a cold chisel too get the inner layer.
His safe is now very well disguised and hidden from view. It was mind blowing how easy it was too get it open even being careful to not damage anything inside.
So. what did you find out when you called?
I too have a Champion. Scheels delivered but would not take it into the house. Had to call a separate locksmith to bring it into my former garage now a den with rug covered concrete floor. The locksmith was a little guy and I was amazed how he could "walk" the safe over to the corner once his dolly had lifted it up from the patio, over an aluminum door sill/frame and place it exactly into a corner where I wanted it. It weighs 625#. He bolted the safe down into the floor and said that safe was not going anywhere. So if/when my son sells it, it stays with the house.
I got the mechanical dial because I heard that the electronic ones can go out on you. It also has a key to unlock the dial. I found that one must be precise to open it and use two hands, one to turn and the other to hold the dial in place as the dial has a tendency to "walk back" ever so slightly if one lets loose of the dial. I do not worry about getting into it safely as I have other firearms about my home and extra ammo. The company who sells to Scheels is located in Utah, but the safe was assembled in Mexico. Good thread!
Most gun safes electronic locks are type II.
TL30 guarantees you've got a type I as typeII can't pass the test.
So yes, they are built to a higher standard.
So maybe I'm crazy but my next safe will be a secureit with a padlock. No consumer level safe is all that hard to get into with an angle grinder and a cutting wheel.
Secureit gets me way more room, a lot more flexibility on where I can stick it, more ventelation so I don't have to worry about corrosion as much, and it's not like half my guns would maintain half their value in a fire even if they were in an insulated safe. I haven't made the leap but it is on my too purchase list.
And none of the guns I might need to use are in the safe anyway.
Secureit gets me way more room, a lot more flexibility on where I can stick it, more ventelation so I don't have to worry about corrosion as much, and it's not like half my guns would maintain half their value in a fire even if they were in an insulated safe. I haven't made the leap but it is on my too purchase list.
And none of the guns I might need to use are in the safe anyway.
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Eastern insurance is supposed to be good. Covers vehicle theft too afaik. Maybe mail loss too. Not sure
Get a used TL15 off craigslist. It will be pretty inexpensive and the average criminal won’t get into it.
I have a cheap Stack-on safe (Made by Cannon as I found out) I bought at Menards. I know its a tin can with a couple layers of sheetrock, but it keeps the kids out and given enough time, any safe can be broken into.
A couple weeks back I walked across the carpet in my basement and went to touch the keypad of my electronic lock to unlock the safe and watched the static electricity arc from my finger to the keypad. No more keypad. Still waiting on replacement as the were backordered (not a great sign).
A couple weeks back I walked across the carpet in my basement and went to touch the keypad of my electronic lock to unlock the safe and watched the static electricity arc from my finger to the keypad. No more keypad. Still waiting on replacement as the were backordered (not a great sign).
i have a 50's diebold and love it! the S&G lock is smooth as better. is there any maintenance i should be doing to the lock?
I agree with most of your post,except removing the relocker.
Most people don't realize just how simple and quick it is to open a safe.
When we would go on a call such as a deli to open a floor safe we'd ask everyone to leave.
We would smoke a few cigarettes drill the hole and give them a bill.
Floor safes were known to break constantly, this had nothing to do with the quality of the safe.
Problems arise when the door is constantly being dropped.
If you want to enjoy prolonged problem free use always close your door gently.
If we have to drill we're not using drill bits bought from places like Granger.
I recommend to everyone that a day lock on their safe will save them a lot of headaches.
In all honesty I very seldom use anything BUT the day lock unless I will be gone for an extended time such as vacation.
Any way you slice it a safe will only slow them down
Not unless it's use involves high humidity and dust.
I haven't worked on a Diebold safe since the early 80's.
Our corporate locks had a service panel on them that had either 2 or 4 screws depending on which model.
Cleaning was a basic figure of speech, all our work was contract maintenance.
Clocks required the most attention, and most of the units had 3 of them.
If you feel that your lock needs cleaned try to get a manual for it.
If you work on your lock let me give you a valuable piece of information.
When you are done serving your safe, ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS cycle your lock(s) at least 3 times WITH THE DOOR OPEN.
Worked my entire career in various US embassies all over the world. We all had safes in our offices for classified documents up to Secret. Some of our offices had a vault with several safes inside. We had a lockout on one of those vaults once. The Seabees came over to drill it out -- a small hole in a very precise location so they could insert a punch and knock the combination lock (always Sargent and Greenleaf) away from the locking mechanism. It took them two full days to drill through the door of that vault, using diamond bits, before they could insert their punch and knock the combination lock aside. Then the vault door had to be replaced. A long, hard process.
You're doing two things with a gun safe: keeping kids and burglars from playing with (or stealing) your guns, and protecting them from fire. A determined burglar can get into a safe if he has enough time. A kid probably can't. Fire, on the other hand, can destroy your guns if given enough time and temperature, without ever opening the door.
Never use anything but Sargent and Greenleaf locks for reliability.
You're doing two things with a gun safe: keeping kids and burglars from playing with (or stealing) your guns, and protecting them from fire. A determined burglar can get into a safe if he has enough time. A kid probably can't. Fire, on the other hand, can destroy your guns if given enough time and temperature, without ever opening the door.
Never use anything but Sargent and Greenleaf locks for reliability.
A cordless grinder and a couple of cut off wheels and your in after about 5 minutes
Simple thing as a motion sensor might give you enough time to get the police there.
I had all the locks on my safes (S&G dials and different key locks) serviced by a locksmith who is a member of a pistol club I belong to.
It was pretty cool to watch him take the combination dial locks completely apart, clean and reassemble them without losing the combination setting, or even knowing it. One Chubb key lock was a bit sticky at times. He took one look and said " This model sometimes does that. Simple fix" and it was. It was like a different lock after he adjusted it.
He serviced a bunch of locks for me and all it cost me was a can of Coke. He said it made a welcome change to work on real locks instead of fixing door knobs and window stays.
Being a guy I'd known for a while and a IPSC pistol shooter at our club, I was comfortable with him seeing my security set up.
It was pretty cool to watch him take the combination dial locks completely apart, clean and reassemble them without losing the combination setting, or even knowing it. One Chubb key lock was a bit sticky at times. He took one look and said " This model sometimes does that. Simple fix" and it was. It was like a different lock after he adjusted it.
He serviced a bunch of locks for me and all it cost me was a can of Coke. He said it made a welcome change to work on real locks instead of fixing door knobs and window stays.
Being a guy I'd known for a while and a IPSC pistol shooter at our club, I was comfortable with him seeing my security set up.
They were Seabees....
I've cut lots of steel. Mag drill and carbide annular cutters can get you through stuff so quick it's unreal. 1/2hp isn't much. I have a wrist breaker 1hp and a bigger 2hp drill on the service truck when the cordless isn't enough.
Diamond bits are slow as hell, but will drill glass unless it's tempered.
Carbide through the steel, diamond through the glass, and you can save considerable time. If you don't have glass to go through then using the diamond is pointless.
Also, the grinder and cut-offs don't care about steel hardness. Good wheels and enough hp on the grinder will cut anything if you can hang on.
I bought a Browning Medallion with a manual dial on it about 15 years ago (S&G / ProSteel). 3 years ago it started acting up, at first I figured I missed a number or something, until it got to the point where it took more and more tries to get it opened. Like 45minutes of trying. Called the local locksmith, he came and took the door apart and cleaned it all up. Good as new since. So I'd say if you notice issues make the call right away.
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