I'm virtually certain it's not that easy... the combo is retained in the lock body, not the keypad. So, just like someone couldn't hack your computer password by fiddling with the connection between the keyboard and the computer its self, neither can someone open an E-lock by futzing with the wires between the keypad and the lock body.
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Locked out of my Safe (Not a good day)
- Thread starter alexander66
- Start date
Chevy_man:
Now that I think back on it (50 years ago) I don't think they were diamond bits. Their problem is that the door was not just steel. It had copper sandwiched in there, if I recall correctly, and I don't know what else. It was meant to defeat drill bits. It defeated a bunch before they got through. They were using a wrist-breaker with a bottle jack against the wall to push it in. Not saying that's the best way to do it, but that's the way they were taught to do it.
Now that I think back on it (50 years ago) I don't think they were diamond bits. Their problem is that the door was not just steel. It had copper sandwiched in there, if I recall correctly, and I don't know what else. It was meant to defeat drill bits. It defeated a bunch before they got through. They were using a wrist-breaker with a bottle jack against the wall to push it in. Not saying that's the best way to do it, but that's the way they were taught to do it.
I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with. FWIW, I am 100% positive that the combo is retained in the lock body, because we've had to swap keypads before; it's as simple as unplugging the old one and plugging in the new one.
Nonetheless, I will gladly admit that there is plenty that I don't know (about plenty of things), so if you find a way to activate the unlocking function of an E-lock without first entering the combo, I'd love to learn about how you did it.
Electronic locks have a computer chip inside the lock mechanism, inside the door, which is where the combination is stored. The keypad only tells the lock which button your pushing.
The keypad is as cheaply made as possible. It's meant to be sacrificed, as it'll be the first thing the thief smashes when he tries to get in.
If the keypad is smashed off, another keypad will get you into the safe, with the same combo.
The keypad is as cheaply made as possible. It's meant to be sacrificed, as it'll be the first thing the thief smashes when he tries to get in.
If the keypad is smashed off, another keypad will get you into the safe, with the same combo.
Opened Mine up and laughed.
Fire retardant is drywall
Wall thickness is a joke
You could get in this just as fast with a drill as you could electronically bypassing the lock
Found a way to bypass the "Lock" for the handle with a wire.
It would take less than one minute to drill it, push the locking mechanism and open the handle. A typical homeowner wouldnt even know, unless they removed the electronic lock to look.
Opened the electronic "Control" mechanism and that made me laugh. Someone with basic EE knowledge and an arduino could employ a number of ways to force it to open. These sub-$1k safes are like I said... Meant to keep the honest, honest.
Fire retardant is drywall
Wall thickness is a joke
You could get in this just as fast with a drill as you could electronically bypassing the lock
Found a way to bypass the "Lock" for the handle with a wire.
It would take less than one minute to drill it, push the locking mechanism and open the handle. A typical homeowner wouldnt even know, unless they removed the electronic lock to look.
Opened the electronic "Control" mechanism and that made me laugh. Someone with basic EE knowledge and an arduino could employ a number of ways to force it to open. These sub-$1k safes are like I said... Meant to keep the honest, honest.
Something else to keep in mind is that "brute force" attacks on guessing the combo would be quite time consuming due to the time-out function of the lock. Most E-locks have a 5-minute timeout if 3 incorrect passwords in a row are entered. So, you get to try 3 (incorrect) combos, then grab a Snicker's, 'cause you're not going anywhere for 5 minutes. Another 3 combos, another 5 minutes, and so on and so forth. FAR quicker to cut into the safe if that's an option... 'cause you're right, most residential (and nearly all "gun") safes offer minimal protection from angle grinders equipped with cutting wheels.
Thick steel in conjunction with smoke/burglar alarms are really your best bet against determined thieves.
Im not talking about using brute-force and an arduino. Theres a ton of ways to bypass your way into the controller. Hell, reach into the safe with a hook, pull the on output wire to the locking mechanism and apply some voltage, it will pop.
Im not saying you mimic the keypad input, you alter the functions of the input/returns by creating a signal that will work havoc with how the controller understands functions.
Asking it to accept something it understands will cause it to act how it knows. You just dont ask it something it can compute. Thats the gist of it.
Im not saying you mimic the keypad input, you alter the functions of the input/returns by creating a signal that will work havoc with how the controller understands functions.
Asking it to accept something it understands will cause it to act how it knows. You just dont ask it something it can compute. Thats the gist of it.
Gonna leave this right here…
gunsafereviewsguy.com
11 Myths about Gun Safe Theft Protection - Gun Safe Reviews Guy
Think any gun safe is better than nothing? What every gun owner ought to know about gun safes. Most gun safes offer little theft protection for your guns.
gunsafereviewsguy.com
I thought maybe just a video of you running a current into those wires, and unlocking the safe. We don't need to see the combo, or the contents of the safe. I was just wanting to see if you know what your talking about. But, make sure you do it with the door closed.
I have a couple extra NL Rotobolt locks from some previous upgrade jobs. If your hotwire attempt works, and you prove it on video, I'll send you 1 free. And I'll cover shipping too.
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If we are talking about a safe such as Liberty,Browning and so on a cutoff wheel only makes it less laborious.
A simple 3 foot crowbar will peel one of those open in nothing flat.
By the way what most people call safes nowadays are not classified as a true safe.
The copper layer is added to help retard the cutting method with heat.
There are many different materials used that slow down or prevent the opening of a TRUE safe.
When they are designed they are figured with the fact of slowing down the break-in
Without getting into specifics there are layers available that will make a drillbit uses.
Think Kevlar and chaps used for chainsaws.
And remember, this was a vault door -- not a safe door. So it was designed to foil any attempt to get into it for a longer period of time than a safe door.
Oh, yes, security device manufacturers get quite diabolical with the content of poured ("concrete") liners. Again, without going into too much detail, there are all sorts of randomly distributed treats that can be found between the inner lining and the outer shell of TL__x6 safes.
The thing is, though, that NO manufacturer (no serious one, anyhow) will make any sort of claim of being impenetrable... they know that with enough time and motivation, ANY security device can be defeated. No safe/vault anywhere should be counted on to be the entirety of a security solution, but simply one of several layers of a well-considered security design.
There are generally 5-7 layers in a Diebold door.
The biggest thing that will help a person if they have a big box store type of gun safe would be to BOLT IT TO THE FLOOR.
They used to be able to make that claim back in the 1800's early 1900's until Hamilton and Diebold started getting the hell sued out of them.
Flat out for a stand alone safe being able to withstand attacks a Cannonball from the late 1800's is still pretty reliable
Yeah, those cannonballs are pretty amazing. Impractical for a lot of uses and expensive, but impressive nonetheless. Just the machining to cut the threads interfacing between the door and the body boggles the mind, to say nothing of jeweled mechanisms for mechanical time locks. True functional works of art in their own way.
Sad to say that level of craftsmanship died with that generation.
Anymore if it's no mass production with a computer aided machine leaves very few left that can make one.
Do you have a link or pictures of this "day lock" you are referring to?
A day lock is a dial with a key in the center.
It's liable to get expensive to add on.
Your best bet would be to call the manufacturer and ask if one may be added.
Np. Just checked my setup. Sturdy Safe's utilize the Sargent & Greenleaf Premium Grade Group II Combination Lock w/dial key.
But could you say more about the utilization of the daylocker? I still have to spin the combination to the last number, then lock the dial w/the key, to give it a "fast open" type situation. How does this preserve the dial?
Here's a 1926 cannonball safe. About 4 feet tall, 2.5 tons. Storage about the size of a couple of small desk drawers. The ease of turning the ball is astounding, but you can really feel the mass of the thing.
It's been several years since I had the privilege of seeing part of a well-known local locksmith's private collection, so memory is a bit fuzzy. It never occurred to me to photograph open/closed state.
There is no "door." Rather, when the clocks - one of which is visible in the image - unlock, the ball can be rotated to expose a drawer which is pulled out like a desk drawer. If I recall , that drawer was about 3 inches tall and maybe 10x15 inches. It's a tiny amount of storage for such a massive device.
Edit: there may have been two drawers. I simply don't remember. Maybe one of the experts here has more info. I do remember its owner saying it was, and remains, about the most secure safe design ever contrived.
Thanks for the explanation. I suppose there is a tradeoff of space available vs. security. You can make something so massive it cannot be lifted and carried away, and/or so secure its lock cannot be defeated but holds almost nothing.
I'm happy with what I have: a gun safe that holds about 30 long guns and defeats the casual pilferer or fire. A devoted burglar could get into it, but the dog would alert me and I'd (hopefully) interrupt any attempt to get into it. Its worked this way so far. . .
I'm happy with what I have: a gun safe that holds about 30 long guns and defeats the casual pilferer or fire. A devoted burglar could get into it, but the dog would alert me and I'd (hopefully) interrupt any attempt to get into it. Its worked this way so far. . .
Here's one that I cleaned up awhile back. Built when things were absolutely done to the best of one's ability, rather than with a cost target in mind.
One of three vaults in an old bank building in downtown Wichita, KS that has been turned into high end apartments. The door is a good 8' in diameter and the floor in front of it is raised and lowered with a gear driven mechanism so the door can open.
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I just love those old safes! They are a work of Art and ALOT of machining & Engineering!
My buddy was not able to unlock his safe... he just went out and bought another one and filled it up with new guns!
Matt
My buddy was not able to unlock his safe... he just went out and bought another one and filled it up with new guns!
Matt
I’m sure it’s at least a 1/4 real steel plate... it’s been a few years to. I think he is treating it like a time capsule ?
I cleaned MANY of those doors, they had to be cleaned regularly or they would rust.
When that vualt was assembled,you needed to be able to close it with one finger for it to pass quality control.
They weigh about a ton an inch
When that door was installed they didn't use a big ass crane, they built a ramp into the basement and drove a big truck down it.
The guys that installed these doors made big money,my FIL was making 100k in the 70's
For the period of about 50 years the only places that made those doors were in Ohio- Hamilton and Canton
Diebold/Hamilton
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Shit, I haven't seen one of those in 40 years at least
I'm laughing at the bottom door, because Diebold,Mosler and Hamilton ALL used the same locks for everything.
It always amazes me to discover that some huge piece of equipment -- a vault door, in this case -- was shipped hundreds of miles or more before we had trucks and highways. When I moved to northern Nevada I discovered the water for the town of Virginia City was piped about 15 miles from a high mountain lake (man-made), down a valley about 1500 feet lower, then back up to Virginia City, not much lower than the lake where it started. No pumps, and the pipe, made of flat steel, spiral shaped and riveted together, was fabricated in Scotland and carried by sailing ship (this was in the middle of the nineteenth century) to San Francisco, then overland to Carson City. I read somewhere that the steel used for the pipes was 8" thick at the bottom of the valley. Amazing!
I got my Sargent & Greenleaf 6730 dial lock in the mail today. I changed it out myself and set all combinations to be same on all of my other safes. I saved myself about $250.00 - $300.00. The safe is back in use, always check and recheck before you close the door after working on a safe.
There is a LOT of good information in this thread. There are also a few "misnomers/mistakes". I'll leave it for those who know, to see the difference.
S&G locksets pretty much 'start off' as better than most/all 'entry level' stuff.
There ARE better locksets out there, if one knows what to look for and where.
TRUE, quality mechanical locksets are always more reliable than ANY electronical device that I'm aware of.
No, I don't know everything about everything yet, gimme another week.
Mild amount of maintenance is required, but the whole concept is more 'prudence' than 'involved'.
What has been said about (+ or -) numbers when dialing is a HUGE tell-tale.
Having a/the local locksmith come out for the initial install can make all the difference in your happiness.
--remember, the true local locksmith who also services the local banks IS someone that can be trusted as they are Bonded. Their reputation IS their security. Use the one that the banks use. (may not be so easy to figure out, but there ARE ways to do such)
Layers of protection ARE what makes the security 'deeper'. ie:
-thickness of steel
-thickness of glass
-thickness of copper
-thickness of aluminum
-thickness of ball-bearings
-thickness of concrete
-or any combination of the above.
The make-up of a quality lockset is HUGELY important in the longevity of its use. Especially the 'older ones' they are pretty-much designed to be 'idiot proof' and last a lifetime.
But the biggest point to the security of your wares, is simply by not advertising (locally OR on the innerwebz) that you HAVE something to protect. And, on top of that,,,, one does not advertise that "I protect my stuff with (this)" simply because you don't want to invite interest NOR throw-down-the-challenge.
If you don't show people that you have a safe, then they don't have it in their mind that 'hey, he's got something there that needs protecting'. At the same time, if you don't let people see that you have a vault, then they're not thinking "I wonder what's in there that needs so much protection...."
When people come to visit me, and we start talking about certain topics, I'll quite often bring something out (pre-staged) from a different room on a different floor into the LIVING ROOM where we are talking, and then we can go 'hands-on' with that/those said devices. As far as they're concerned, the stuff was stored "upstairs in 'that' room" as opposed to (wherever else it might actually reside, regularly)
Hide in plain sight, as well as "the power of suggestion" mixed with "sleight of hand" is where your true security comes from.
S&G locksets pretty much 'start off' as better than most/all 'entry level' stuff.
There ARE better locksets out there, if one knows what to look for and where.
TRUE, quality mechanical locksets are always more reliable than ANY electronical device that I'm aware of.
No, I don't know everything about everything yet, gimme another week.
Mild amount of maintenance is required, but the whole concept is more 'prudence' than 'involved'.
What has been said about (+ or -) numbers when dialing is a HUGE tell-tale.
Having a/the local locksmith come out for the initial install can make all the difference in your happiness.
--remember, the true local locksmith who also services the local banks IS someone that can be trusted as they are Bonded. Their reputation IS their security. Use the one that the banks use. (may not be so easy to figure out, but there ARE ways to do such)
Layers of protection ARE what makes the security 'deeper'. ie:
-thickness of steel
-thickness of glass
-thickness of copper
-thickness of aluminum
-thickness of ball-bearings
-thickness of concrete
-or any combination of the above.
The make-up of a quality lockset is HUGELY important in the longevity of its use. Especially the 'older ones' they are pretty-much designed to be 'idiot proof' and last a lifetime.
But the biggest point to the security of your wares, is simply by not advertising (locally OR on the innerwebz) that you HAVE something to protect. And, on top of that,,,, one does not advertise that "I protect my stuff with (this)" simply because you don't want to invite interest NOR throw-down-the-challenge.
If you don't show people that you have a safe, then they don't have it in their mind that 'hey, he's got something there that needs protecting'. At the same time, if you don't let people see that you have a vault, then they're not thinking "I wonder what's in there that needs so much protection...."
When people come to visit me, and we start talking about certain topics, I'll quite often bring something out (pre-staged) from a different room on a different floor into the LIVING ROOM where we are talking, and then we can go 'hands-on' with that/those said devices. As far as they're concerned, the stuff was stored "upstairs in 'that' room" as opposed to (wherever else it might actually reside, regularly)
Hide in plain sight, as well as "the power of suggestion" mixed with "sleight of hand" is where your true security comes from.
I used to hide my "gun money" from the first wife by sticking it in the vacuum....
I have a big Rhino Metals USA made model with a Sargent & Greenleaf electronic pad/code lock. I like it. Its not top of the line but neither is the stuff on the inside LMAO
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