Long Range 22LR ammo testing

[MarkCZ]

I run a long range 22 LR match. We shoot all steel knockdown. 150 yds to 400yds. Last year we shot out to 285 yds, but the last match we have pushed out to 330yds and 400 yds. We sighting on clays, set on the berms. At these ranges you start seeing more vertical. I have been testing my ammo ( SK Biathlon, Long Range and Eley Club ) for vertical at 330yds and 400yds.
I pick a piece of clay for a small aiming point. I hold 0.2 mils to the side ( not hitting my aim point ). I fire, just looking for vertical, I disregard wind. This has to be done in good wind conditions. SK Long Range has around 0.2 mils of vertical at 400 yds, Eley Club is close at 0.3 mils, SK Biathlon is around 0.5 mils., other ammo's as much a 2.0 mils.
I do all the regular testing, but this vertical testing has worked great for me. It culled out a lot ammo for long range.
How do you test for long range?
Mark

 

[b6graham]

i shoot on big freshly painted steel or paper

but i don't really record vertical. i kinda just buy SK RM or ideally CenterX and just run it

works good enough for PRS rimfire matches

 

[obx22]

I run a long range 22 LR match. We shoot all steel knockdown. 150 yds to 400yds. Last year we shot out to 285 yds, but the last match we have pushed out to 330yds and 400 yds. We sighting on clays, set on the berms. At these ranges you start seeing more vertical. I have been testing my ammo ( SK Biathlon, Long Range and Eley Club ) for vertical at 330yds and 400yds.
I pick a piece of clay for a small aiming point. I hold 0.2 mils to the side ( not hitting my aim point ). I fire, just looking for vertical, I disregard wind. This has to be done in good wind conditions. SK Long Range has around 0.2 mils of vertical at 400 yds, Eley Club is close at 0.3 mils, SK Biathlon is around 0.5 mils., other ammo's as much a 2.0 mils.
I do all the regular testing, but this vertical testing has worked great for me. It culled out a lot ammo for long range.
How do you test for long range?
Mark

With this established, have you tried tuning your rifle (action screw torque) with ammo that has the least vertical? Seems that’d be double whammy of an improvement!

 

[MarkCZ]

i shoot on big freshly painted steel or paper

but i don't really record vertical. i kinda just buy SK RM or ideally CenterX and just run it

works good enough for PRS rimfire matches

I use steel for sight in, but after 10 to 15 rounds, it is hard to tell where you are hitting. The dirt can be shot unlimited times and you can just change aiming points.

With this established, have you tried tuning your rifle (action screw torque) with ammo that has the least vertical? Seems that’d be double whammy of an improvement!

I played with action screw torque when i got he guns. I may give it a try.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

The dirt can be shot unlimited times and you can just change aiming points.

The dirt clod is a never ending target.

 

[Rimfireshooter99]

Shooters, starting in September, I just posted a new match you can shoot at 200, 300 or 400 yards, or all three!

Check it out...

William Buck Memorial Postal Matches

Welcome to the 2024 William Buck Memorial Postal Matches! There are 7 rimfire matches you can participate in, 1) Iron Sight rifle 50 yards* 2) Factory rifle 50 yards* 3) Match-Grade rifle 50 yards* 4) Unlimited rifle 50 yards* 5) Mini Palma for scoped rifles 100 yards* 6) JBell 6x5 Match for...

www.snipershide.com

RFS99

 

[obx22]

I use steel for sight in, but after 10 to 15 rounds, it is hard to tell where you are hitting. The dirt can be shot unlimited times and you can just change aiming points.

I played with action screw torque when i got he guns. I may give it a try.

I read of the “Hopewell Method” of barrel tuning, and applied it to my action screw torque tuning, the rifle was very responsive

 

[justin amateur]

In order to obtain consistent accuracy at distances longer than 50 yards
I have to hand load 223 centerfire to produce the desired results.
All of the rimfire ammunition I've purchased has not been capable
of the uniformity of muzzle velocities, components or assembly, necessary to do so.
Niether 22lr, 17 hm2/hmr, or 22wmr are manufactured in a way
that allows for consistent, long range precision.
The greater the distance, the more those manufacturing variations mess with results.

1 fps difference in a 40 grain match 22lr projectile produces:

Range Yards	Drop (inches)	Velocity	Energy	Wind drift (inches)	Time (milliseconds)
A	B	A	B	A	B	A	B	A	B
0	0.0000	0.0000	1085	1084	105	104	0.0000	0.0000	1	1
100	-16.4639	-16.4896	941	940	79	78	0.0000	0.0000	300	300
200	-72.1504	-72.2493	848	847	64	64	0.0000	0.0000	636	637
300	-176.2243	-176.4441	775	774	53	53	0.0000	0.0000	1007	1008
400	-338.5899	-338.9825	712	711	45	45	0.0000	0.0000	1412	1413
500	-569.7492	-570.3730	656	655	38	38	0.0000	0.0000	1852	1853
600	-882.3398	-883.2622	605	604	33	32	0.0000	0.0000	2330	2332

At 400 yards with an ES of 40 fps (typical of match 22lr), 40 x 0.4 inches = 16 inches of vertical spread.

That's not including wind, mirage, cartridge defects or shooter caused dispersion.

 

[MarkCZ]

In order to obtain consistent accuracy at distances longer than 50 yards
I have to hand load 223 centerfire to produce the desired results.
All of the rimfire ammunition I've purchased has not been capable
of the uniformity of muzzle velocities, components or assembly, necessary to do so.
Niether 22lr, 17 hm2/hmr, or 22wmr are manufactured in a way
that allows for consistent, long range precision.
The greater the distance, the more those manufacturing variations mess with results.

If this is true, How are the guys shooting my match hitting targets out to 400yds. The last match one guy cleaned it, second place missed 2, 3rd place missed 5.

RRRC Long Range 22LR Match format update

Roanoke Rifle and Revolver Club 22LR Long Range 22LR Match We have 1.5" eggs targets, 2" and 3" square steel targets, 5" X 2.5" IDPA, and 4" square, 6" square, and 8" square steel knockdown targets, that can be shot at berms at 150yds, 200yds, 220 yds and 285 yds, 330yds, and 400yds. 2 min...

www.snipershide.com

Before going out to 330yds and 400yds, we shot Match sticks at 50 yds. dum dum at 90 yds and steel from 90 yds to 285yds. the match sticks and dum dum gave everyone a fit, but 9 guys cleaned all the steel out to 285yds. How are these guys doing this? PRS and ELR guys are hitting targets 300 to 600+ yds. How are they doing this? Yesterday I was shooting CCI SV and Norma 22Tac out to 400yds. I don't think these are good long range 22 lr ammo's. But I was hitting targets out to 400 yds. How can I do that with cheap ammo ( They don't hit as well as my good ammo, but they hit regularly)? We look for hit % not group size.

You have shot all most every 22lr ammo made with your 50 at 200yds. How can you do that, if it does not shoot consistent past 50 yds. I think your process it flawed. IMO it is a waste of ammo, it would not tell me anything.

Maybe you should take some small steel out to 200yds, and see how many you can hit you can get, out of a box of 50. You may be surprised. You can't hold one POA, you will need to make aim corrections, due to wind, light, heat for the gun or what ever. When you miss make a correction. Give it a try.

I know rimfire ammo is no where close to centerfire as far as SD and ES. You are going the see dropout"s and high hits, but are goods group in there, and can make hits. That is why a give my shooters 10 shots to knock down 5 targets.
You are saying a 22LR can't shoot long range. How are all the Long Range shooters doing this all of the time?

 

[justin amateur]

Evening Mark.

Is my ballistic calculator producing incorrect numbers?
Are the drop values in the first 2 columns false?

You allow a 50% failure rate in scoring, true?

1 out of 2 shots is allowed to miss?

Can you produce some decent runs of hits? No doubt.

I've sent multiple groups at 200 yards that hit where I was aiming.
Then the next group blew up due to mv spread, cartridge defects or failure to time the shot to a wind change.
My idea of consistent accuracy/precision is different than yours. Semantics.

5 inches at 200 yards is 2.5 moa, correct?
16-17 inches at 400 yards is 4 moa.
I consider 1 moa with rimfire at extended range to be precision shooting.

Your thoughts?

 

[obx22]

Evening Mark.

Is my ballistic calculator producing incorrect numbers?
Are the drop values in the first 2 columns false?

You allow a 50% failure rate in scoring, true?

1 out of 2 shots is allowed to miss?

Can you produce some decent runs of hits? No doubt.

I've sent multiple groups at 200 yards that hit where I was aiming.
Then the next group blew up due to mv spread, cartridge defects or failure to time the shot to a wind change.
My idea of consistent accuracy/precision is different than yours. Semantics.

5 inches at 200 yards is 2.5 moa, correct?
16-17 inches at 400 yards is 4 moa.
I consider 1 moa with rimfire at extended range to be precision shooting.

Your thoughts?

Justin,
I think the issue is your math predicts extreme spreads constantly, but in the real world that doesn’t happen. A magazine of 10-12 shots is very rarely going to have the extremes apparent in a case sample. Putting those shots on steel at extreme distance, and off of impromptu barricades would be considered miraculous if we believed such numbers. That’s not saying there are no misses, they happen, a lot. Still, when you clean a stage your confidence soars, and you start hard pressing the limits of your equipment, to the point it sometimes defies the math.
Kinda like not knowing the odds, so you excell anyway

 

[justin amateur]

I'm a technician obx. I enjoy my data.
My ideas regarding consistent results and precision shooting
don't always align with the opinions expressed by others.
Does it matter? No. Will it change their results? No.
Is it just another opinion offered in a forum discussion? Yep.

 

[Gleedus]

I test on paper POI recorded and group data stored in a spreadsheet. Past 400 I use a large plate of steel and then measure POI in relation to POA. I typically use 20 shot groups. But I did post a 50 at 200 from 2 rifles.

In regards to the question on how guys can clean your 400 yd stage is all in statistics. If you disregard the 5 worse shots in a 10 shot group at 400 its totally possible. Justin looks at 100% of the shots in these discussions for very good reason because very few peoples 22lr shoot as good as they say or think.
With good ammo a 12" plate at 400 is a 100% target except for the 1 in the box shot. Note I said good ammo. My observation in the average guy is running 24-30" of vertical at 400. Your not getting a consistent group of any statistical value or repeatability at 400 yards thats 4" but you can still have a hit%. If you had 1 shot and $100 on that shot you would look at it differently. There needs to be a combination of the ES approach and hit percentage. In PRS because we are a hit or miss game hit percentage means more for us then F-class. But even in F Class group SD has more value then ES. Justins testing procedures are not flawed its peoples interpretation's of the data that are flawed. Also most people write it off as a waste and never try themselves. You really should try the 50 at 200 with the above mentioned ammo it would be interesting.... please post it on the thread when you do I wish more people would. I agree 50 is a touch excessive I typically use 20 and calculate vertical SD but 50 will show clearly what 22lr ammo really is.

 

[sjmpcc022]

That's not including wind, mirage, cartridge defects or shooter caused dispersion.

Shooter caused dispersion, that almost sounds like someone from the DOJ came up with that to explain why Hunter Biden couldn't successfully pee in a cup!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[RTH1800]

In order to obtain consistent accuracy at distances longer than 50 yards
I have to hand load 223 centerfire to produce the desired results.
All of the rimfire ammunition I've purchased has not been capable
of the uniformity of muzzle velocities, components or assembly, necessary to do so.
Niether 22lr, 17 hm2/hmr, or 22wmr are manufactured in a way
that allows for consistent, long range precision.
The greater the distance, the more those manufacturing variations mess with results.

1 fps difference in a 40 grain match 22lr projectile produces:

A	B	A	B	A	B	A	B	A	B
Range Yards	Drop (inches)	Velocity	Energy	Wind drift (inches)	Time (milliseconds)
0	0.0000	0.0000	1085	1084	105	104	0.0000	0.0000	1	1
100	-16.4639	-16.4896	941	940	79	78	0.0000	0.0000	300	300
200	-72.1504	-72.2493	848	847	64	64	0.0000	0.0000	636	637
300	-176.2243	-176.4441	775	774	53	53	0.0000	0.0000	1007	1008
400	-338.5899	-338.9825	712	711	45	45	0.0000	0.0000	1412	1413
500	-569.7492	-570.3730	656	655	38	38	0.0000	0.0000	1852	1853
600	-882.3398	-883.2622	605	604	33	32	0.0000	0.0000	2330	2332

At 400 yards with an ES of 40 fps (typical of match 22lr), 40 x 0.4 inches = 16 inches of vertical spread.

That's not including wind, mirage, cartridge defects or shooter caused dispersion.

This is the entire story. Done.

 

[MarkCZ]

Evening Mark.

Is my ballistic calculator producing incorrect numbers?
Are the drop values in the first 2 columns false?

You allow a 50% failure rate in scoring, true?

1 out of 2 shots is allowed to miss?

Can you produce some decent runs of hits? No doubt.

I've sent multiple groups at 200 yards that hit where I was aiming.
Then the next group blew up due to mv spread, cartridge defects or failure to time the shot to a wind change.
My idea of consistent accuracy/precision is different than yours. Semantics.

5 inches at 200 yards is 2.5 moa, correct?
16-17 inches at 400 yards is 4 moa.
I consider 1 moa with rimfire at extended range to be precision shooting.

Your thoughts?

I do allow 10 shots for 5 target. Most will clean with less than 10 shots. That is allowing for wind mostly.
We do have different ideas on accuracy.

Now, what about the question. How can a shooter hit target at 400+yds regularly with ammo, you say that is not accurate?

Are going to try some steel?

Gleedus,
I am asking for the interpretation of a 50 at 200, what is it going to tell me. How would it help me in the 1 shot for $100?

I have been there and done that, in a winner take all shoot off, many times. Sometimes you win, sometime you don't. I will shoot a 50 at 200, if someone can tell me how it will help me win, all of them.

 

[obx22]

In the game I shoot, all shots count. Doesn’t make it better, just different. We have to hit different shapes of steel, sometimes repeatedly, sometimes after engaging others at dramatically different distances. I think if I experienced the horrid accuracy thus far described I’d have given up and gone home long ago, but no, and it’s not just me cause the sport is growing (as does the tech).
When I run 5 and 10 shot groups in practice on paper, not throwing any shots out mind you, counting every blessed one, I don’t feel I’m missing some deeper story or statistic than those running the whole blessed box.
So as has been asked, how the hell are we able to hit anything when that trophy is on the line, the practice is on the line, our decisions on how to tackle a given stage is on the line, our investment in time, money, equipment, tinkering, etc. is on the line. How can we put such faith in even lower to mid grade ammo? Are we beating the man and not the equipment? Gaming the stages? How the hell did I manage to hit 5 outta 10 on a 400yd target, on the clock, while resting the gun on a blessed tennis ball on a pole?
I lose, a lot. I do not believe it’s the ammo that fails me. I win occasionally, and believe it’s because my choice of ammo performs to an acceptable level.

Justin
As a field technician I constantly have to assess why something doesn’t perform as was claimed in laboratory conditions. Most of the time it’s human error, and not always in the real world, but in the lab overlooking real world conditions. Big deal right?
Cool discussion

 

[obx22]

In the game I shoot, all shots count. Doesn’t make it better, just different. We have to hit different shapes of steel, sometimes repeatedly, sometimes after engaging others at dramatically different distances. I think if I experienced the horrid accuracy thus far described I’d have given up and gone home long ago, but no, and it’s not just me cause the sport is growing (as does the tech).
When I run 5 and 10 shot groups in practice on paper, not throwing any shots out mind you, counting every blessed one, I don’t feel I’m missing some deeper story or statistic than those running the whole blessed box.
So as has been asked, how the hell are we able to hit anything when that trophy is on the line, the practice is on the line, our decisions on how to tackle a given stage is on the line, our investment in time, money, equipment, tinkering, etc. is on the line. How can we put such faith in even lower to mid grade ammo? Are we beating the man and not the equipment? Gaming the stages? How the hell did I manage to hit 5 outta 10 on a 400yd target, on the clock, while resting the gun on a blessed tennis ball on a pole?
I lose, a lot. I do not believe it’s the ammo that fails me. I win occasionally, and believe it’s because my choice of ammo performs to an acceptable level.

Justin
As a field technician I constantly have to assess why something doesn’t perform as was claimed in laboratory conditions. Most of the time it’s human error, and not always in the real world, but in the lab overlooking real world conditions. Big deal right?
Cool discussion

Lest y’all think I’m bragging, one month prior I missed every blessed shot on what may have been the same target at 400, and from a far more stable position!
No, I don’t blame the ammo!

 

[justin amateur]

Morning gents.

What use is 50 shots at a single aimpoint at 200 yards,
with cartridges never intended for use at that distance?

It's about finding out just how good the quality of your ammunition is.
Learning what it takes to compensate for wind shifts.
Maintaining focus and body position even when you get tired.
Determining which rifles are capable of the accomplishing the task.
Illustrating the effects of wind, mirage, mv spread and ammo defects with a large number sample.
Learning there is no "all day long" sub moa with rimfire.

That's the purpose of 50 at 200 yards.
What really happens when every shot is shown.
Not just the shots that make me look good.

Will it improve your chances of winning a competition?
If you learn something from the experience, it might.

I learned to visually inspect my cartridges before chambering.
The correlation of visible defects to trajectory spread is educational.
The longer time of flight amplifies the effects of small problems
making them more recognizable amongst the other variables.

I also learned that there are days where I am 100% the problem.
Those cross hairs just wouldn't maintain point of aim.
They wobbled all around due to my inability to maintain a stable shooting position.

Any time spent behind the trigger is useful.
What you learn from it depends on your attitude
and how much you pay attention to detail.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I consider 1 moa with rimfire at extended range to be precision shooting.

Your thoughts?

1 moa at 200 yards may not be repeatable throughout a single day, nevertheless day to day if not shooting on some groomed range to block wind. I believe your assessment of precision is a tad tight, especially if it needs to be repeated time and again.
I have shot some fantastic groups out to 500 yards, then fantasizing about getting the gold medal draped over my neck, only to see a 60 deg wind shift in the next 20 min and not be able to hit the plate I shot the group on consistently.
I guess I get in the habit of setting reasonable goals for accuracy or precision on a day-to-day basis, even how far out I set targets.
This is 22LR and not some hot rod 6mm case.

 

[Milo 2.5]

If this is true, How are the guys shooting my match hitting targets out to 400yds. The last match one guy cleaned it, second place missed 2, 3rd place missed 5.

RRRC Long Range 22LR Match format update

Roanoke Rifle and Revolver Club 22LR Long Range 22LR Match We have 1.5" eggs targets, 2" and 3" square steel targets, 5" X 2.5" IDPA, and 4" square, 6" square, and 8" square steel knockdown targets, that can be shot at berms at 150yds, 200yds, 220 yds and 285 yds, 330yds, and 400yds. 2 min...

www.snipershide.com

Before going out to 330yds and 400yds, we shot Match sticks at 50 yds. dum dum at 90 yds and steel from 90 yds to 285yds. the match sticks and dum dum gave everyone a fit, but 9 guys cleaned all the steel out to 285yds. How are these guys doing this? PRS and ELR guys are hitting targets 300 to 600+ yds. How are they doing this? Yesterday I was shooting CCI SV and Norma 22Tac out to 400yds. I don't think these are good long range 22 lr ammo's. But I was hitting targets out to 400 yds. How can I do that with cheap ammo ( They don't hit as well as my good ammo, but they hit regularly)? We look for hit % not group size.

You have shot all most every 22lr ammo made with your 50 at 200yds. How can you do that, if it does not shoot consistent past 50 yds. I think your process it flawed. IMO it is a waste of ammo, it would not tell me anything.

Maybe you should take some small steel out to 200yds, and see how many you can hit you can get, out of a box of 50. You may be surprised. You can't hold one POA, you will need to make aim corrections, due to wind, light, heat for the gun or what ever. When you miss make a correction. Give it a try.

I know rimfire ammo is no where close to centerfire as far as SD and ES. You are going the see dropout"s and high hits, but are goods group in there, and can make hits. That is why a give my shooters 10 shots to knock down 5 targets.
You are saying a 22LR can't shoot long range. How are all the Long Range shooters doing this all of the time?

Sincere question, why do you feel the need to justify your very existence, being your match or your accuracy goals?
I like the idea of your match, sounds fun and challenging under most conditions, I would love to shoot it if it was closer. Carry on, you will make it more challenging as the course gets redundant.
I guess whatever I decide to do with my 22LR's, it will never be dictated by 50 yard fudds shooting over 20 wind flags.

 

[justin amateur]

Milo, I've had some results that were a pleasant surprise,
others that disappointed greatly. Same day, same conditions, ammo and setup.
The cause was the ammunition. That's where I came up with the "assembly line lottery".
Never know what those cartridges will do until you squeeze.

I have a goal of sub 1 inch for 50 shots at 100 yards outdoors.
Can I get it done? Haven't so far. Why? Chronograph shows mv related spread,
visual inspection of cartridges shows differences in components and assembly.

I can get a run of similar trajectories, but those cartridge caused fliers show up every attempt.
Will that stop my trying? No. I think a 1 inch 50 shot group is attainable.
It's been done by others and posted in the "whole box at 100 yards" thread.

1 moa is the precision I expect from quality rimfire ammo at 100 yards.
If the ammunition is slinging strays, that's not competition quality ammo.
If you are satisfied with 3 out of 5 shots hitting the 1 inch bull, that's your standard of precision.
Doesn't change my expectations, simply a difference of opinion.

Apply my double distance triple spread rule of thumb...

1 inch at 100 yards
3 inches at 200 yards
9 inches at 400 yards

Those would be the best results I'd expect from rimfire
when all 50 shots are shown. No excuses, no cherry picking.

I've seen 3 inches at 200 yards for 50 shots, it has been done with the 22lr.

Unlikely to see 9 inches for 50 shots at 400 yards, too many things can go wrong.

 

[obx22]

Sincere question, why do you feel the need to justify your very existence, being your match or your accuracy goals?
I like the idea of your match, sounds fun and challenging under most conditions, I would love to shoot it if it was closer. Carry on, you will make it more challenging as the course gets redundant.
I guess whatever I decide to do with my 22LR's, it will never be dictated by 50 yard fudds shooting over 20 wind flags.

What’s a wind flag?


Sorry, I just hadda! We’re far too serious

 

[Gleedus]

I'll try to explain in a nut shell how it could help. In PRS there are no throw away shots. Every single shot matters. Up here we typically shoot from 100-400 yards at our matches.
I get a new rifle and a selection of ammo to test. I shoot some 10 shot groups at 50, 100, 20 shot at 200, 20 shot at 300 all on paper.
I then look at my group vertical ES and SD.
A 200 yard example from my own rifles actual data.
Ammo #1 ES 5.83" SD 0.55"
Ammo #2 ES 5.88" SD 0.68"
Ammo #3 ES 2.5" SD 0.68"

If we look at the ES 1-2 are the same but the SD shows that ammo #2 has a better chance of the next shot being closer to the POA. Looking at SD of 2-3 they are the same but the ES is much smaller. Ammo #3 had less "fliers" so a smaller ES. It is also a premium ammo. Ammo #3 50 shot groups will be 3.5-4" ES but SD is the same.

If the match I'm shooting allows me throw away half my shots I would use ammo #1 because the "fliers" dont matter and 50% of the shots are a killer group. But for PRS I will use #3.
Very occasionally you will get a awesome lot of midgrade ammo but typically high end will out shoot mid-grade by a fair margin if your rifle is setup for quality ammo.

Our human minds tent to latch onto what we want. We tend to forget about a poor group because we want our rifle to be good. We tend to get a negative mindset at a match when things go poor so we have a excuse on why the poor performance instead of taking ownership. Thats why it is so important to test on paper and record the unbiased truth. The 50 at 200 is about cold hard truth not most efficient testing procedures.

 

[justin amateur]

G, y'er calculating ES and SD relative to center of group in inches?
So SD is half the spread of 2 out of 3 shots?

 

[Milo 2.5]

.Milo, I've had some results that were a pleasant surprise,
others that disappointed greatly. Same day, same conditions, ammo and setup.
The cause was the ammunition. That's where I came up with the "assembly line lottery".
Never know what those cartridges will do until you squeeze.

I have a goal of sub 1 inch for 50 shots at 100 yards outdoors.
Can I get it done? Haven't so far. Why? Chronograph shows mv related spread,
visual inspection of cartridges shows differences in components and assembly.

I can get a run of similar trajectories, but those cartridge caused fliers show up every attempt.
Will that stop my trying? No. I think a 1 inch 50 shot group is attainable.
It's been done by others and posted in the "whole box at 100 yards thread".

1 moa is the precision I expect from quality rimfire ammo at 100 yards.
If the ammunition is slinging strays, that's not competition quality ammo.
If you are satisfied with 3 out of 5 shots hitting the 1 inch bull, that's your standard of precision.
Doesn't change my expectations, simply a difference of opinion.

Apply my double distance triple spread rule of thumb...

1 inch at 100 yards
3 inches at 200 yards
9 inches at 400 yards

Those would be the best results I'd expect from rimfire
when all 50 shots are shown. No excuses, no cherry picking.

I've seen 3 inches at 200 yards for 50 shots, it has been done with the 22lr.

Unlikely to see 9 inches for 50 shots at 400 yards, too many things can go wrong.

That makes more sense to me, lmao! In the last yr, I have left the range 3-4 times asking myself if it would be possible to suck even more.

 

[SanPatHogger]

If this is true, How are the guys shooting my match hitting targets out to 400yds. The last match one guy cleaned it, second place missed 2, 3rd place missed 5.

RRRC Long Range 22LR Match format update

Roanoke Rifle and Revolver Club 22LR Long Range 22LR Match We have 1.5" eggs targets, 2" and 3" square steel targets, 5" X 2.5" IDPA, and 4" square, 6" square, and 8" square steel knockdown targets, that can be shot at berms at 150yds, 200yds, 220 yds and 285 yds, 330yds, and 400yds. 2 min...

www.snipershide.com

Before going out to 330yds and 400yds, we shot Match sticks at 50 yds. dum dum at 90 yds and steel from 90 yds to 285yds. the match sticks and dum dum gave everyone a fit, but 9 guys cleaned all the steel out to 285yds. How are these guys doing this? PRS and ELR guys are hitting targets 300 to 600+ yds. How are they doing this? Yesterday I was shooting CCI SV and Norma 22Tac out to 400yds. I don't think these are good long range 22 lr ammo's. But I was hitting targets out to 400 yds. How can I do that with cheap ammo ( They don't hit as well as my good ammo, but they hit regularly)? We look for hit % not group size.

You have shot all most every 22lr ammo made with your 50 at 200yds. How can you do that, if it does not shoot consistent past 50 yds. I think your process it flawed. IMO it is a waste of ammo, it would not tell me anything.

Maybe you should take some small steel out to 200yds, and see how many you can hit you can get, out of a box of 50. You may be surprised. You can't hold one POA, you will need to make aim corrections, due to wind, light, heat for the gun or what ever. When you miss make a correction. Give it a try.

I know rimfire ammo is no where close to centerfire as far as SD and ES. You are going the see dropout"s and high hits, but are goods group in there, and can make hits. That is why a give my shooters 10 shots to knock down 5 targets.
You are saying a 22LR can't shoot long range. How are all the Long Range shooters doing this all of the time?

What size targets are you using? At 110 yards I shoot CCI SV consistantly under 2 inch groups, usually 1.5. The matches I've shot have a 3 and 5 inch plate at 110, So cheap ammo is good enough for that match. If you are using 4 inch targets at 400 that's 1 moa and super impressive. If they are 24 inch plates at 400 that's a little easier. A month or so ago they did the match out to 400 yards, I think the target was the size of a car hood.

 

[MarkCZ]

What size targets are you using? At 110 yards I shoot CCI SV consistantly under 2 inch groups, usually 1.5. The matches I've shot have a 3 and 5 inch plate at 110, So cheap ammo is good enough for that match. If you are using 4 inch targets at 400 that's 1 moa and super impressive. If they are 24 inch plates at 400 that's a little easier. A month or so ago they did the match out to 400 yards, I think the target was the size of a car hood.

We have 1.5" eggs targets, 2" and 3" square steel targets, 5" X 2.5" IDPA, and 4" square, 6" square, and 8" square steel knockdown targets, that can be shot at berms at 150yds, 200yds, 220 yds and 285 yds, 330yds, and 400yds.
2 min. sight in and 2 min. for 10 records rounds to take down 5 targets at each distance.

 

[Gleedus]

G, y'er calculating ES and SD relative to center of group in inches?
So SD is half the spread of 2 out of 3 shots?

Yes in relation to center in inches.

SD will look like half of 2/3 because 1 SD is 34% so 68% of shots are +/- 1 SD. 2/3 is 66% / 2 = 1 SD kinda.
SD has only some relation to ES. It considers all shots made into the calculations and really is just giving the odds of where the next shot will land. Which is why I use it.

 

[MarkCZ]

Guys we are shooting for the same results, with a round that can drive you crazy. I know the what the 50 at 200 is getting you, but I don't have to shoot one to know what my ammo is doing. Vertical of the ammo is what you want. If you know the you ES is 4.0" and SD is 0.50". Your next round should be 0.50" from the last shot and the next should be 0.50" from that shot. That is the standard for your ammo, that is all we have. But it is not like that in the real world. In a 10 round mag you may get 2 of the ES rounds in one mag, then none in the next 2 mags. You don't know when they are coming. Then you can get the round from hell, that drops a foot low.

Now you have your vertical spread from your testing. Weather condition have way more effect on 22lr than anything. I shoot with group of guys every Friday. We setup the steel and shoot. A few weeks ago. I was working on sight setting no my 2 Bergara B14R. starting out in the morning it was 75 degrees with my older B14R, I got everything out to 400yds. When I got to the new B14R it was 90 to 95 degrees. It was shooting 0.5 mils less at all distances, well this gun must be faster than the older one. then it dawn on me that it was the heat. I went back to the older, the same 0.5 mils less. We have a small weather station on the range, and check it throughout the day and make change on our drop data.
Our range is on Windy Gap MT. The wind will give you a lot of added vertical plus right and left. That is why I give 10 shots for 5 targets.
Good shooting guys

 

[Emerson0311]

If this is true, How are the guys shooting my match hitting targets out to 400yds. The last match one guy cleaned it, second place missed 2, 3rd place missed 5.

RRRC Long Range 22LR Match format update

Roanoke Rifle and Revolver Club 22LR Long Range 22LR Match We have 1.5" eggs targets, 2" and 3" square steel targets, 5" X 2.5" IDPA, and 4" square, 6" square, and 8" square steel knockdown targets, that can be shot at berms at 150yds, 200yds, 220 yds and 285 yds, 330yds, and 400yds. 2 min...

www.snipershide.com

Before going out to 330yds and 400yds, we shot Match sticks at 50 yds. dum dum at 90 yds and steel from 90 yds to 285yds. the match sticks and dum dum gave everyone a fit, but 9 guys cleaned all the steel out to 285yds. How are these guys doing this? PRS and ELR guys are hitting targets 300 to 600+ yds. How are they doing this? Yesterday I was shooting CCI SV and Norma 22Tac out to 400yds. I don't think these are good long range 22 lr ammo's. But I was hitting targets out to 400 yds. How can I do that with cheap ammo ( They don't hit as well as my good ammo, but they hit regularly)? We look for hit % not group size.

You have shot all most every 22lr ammo made with your 50 at 200yds. How can you do that, if it does not shoot consistent past 50 yds. I think your process it flawed. IMO it is a waste of ammo, it would not tell me anything.

Maybe you should take some small steel out to 200yds, and see how many you can hit you can get, out of a box of 50. You may be surprised. You can't hold one POA, you will need to make aim corrections, due to wind, light, heat for the gun or what ever. When you miss make a correction. Give it a try.

I know rimfire ammo is no where close to centerfire as far as SD and ES. You are going the see dropout"s and high hits, but are goods group in there, and can make hits. That is why a give my shooters 10 shots to knock down 5 targets.
You are saying a 22LR can't shoot long range. How are all the Long Range shooters doing this all of the time?

They are doing it by ignoring the up to 50% of the bullets that go astray. If the backstop is easy to spot impacts on, it’s even simpler. I can do it too. I had a 300 yd 15 shot group of SK Standard+ that put 10 shots in 1 1/2” vertically. Bench rest every shot counts for score vs a shotgun pattern on clays are at the very opposite ends of the scale. Like F class vs an LMG at 1K. Other disciplines are somewhere in the middle.

 

[Gleedus]

No thats not how SD works. SD says that 68% of shots will land +/- in the case of 0.5" SD 68% of shots 1" group 95% will land +/- 2 SD or a 2" group. 99.7% +/- 3 SD or 3" group.
Put a large plate behind your small one the after a match you can see what percentage of misses are wind vs vertical.

 

[MarkCZ]

No thats not how SD works. SD says that 68% of shots will land +/- in the case of 0.5" SD 68% of shots 1" group 95% will land +/- 2 SD or a 2" group. 99.7% +/- 3 SD or 3" group.
Put a large plate behind your small one the after a match you can see what percentage of misses are wind vs vertical.

I just thru that out for example, sorry it was not correct. You guys are way into the ES/SD math. That is ok, but not for me. Like you said " It considers all shots made into the calculations and really is just giving the odds of where the next shot will land." It is odds, not real world. I will spend my time working with the weather conditions.

 

[Gleedus]

Statistics/ Odds and real world line up. Thats why Brian Litz WEZ program works.
You asked how people test long range ammo capability. Testing has to be scientific or its not true testing. Some of us really enjoy real life testing. Remember we are shooting in weather conditions here too.
I'm not sure why you get so defensive and against when people try to point out there is more going on then what your accounting for. You asked the question and admit to not being into the scientific aproach and thats ok we need guys like you to remind us of good enough. I expect if you would listen you could improve your scores and continue to develop your match. But if you just have a desire to be right...

I do think its awesome that you host matches like this. As a fellow MD I know Its a lot of work and effort for the return some days.
Regards

 

[MarkCZ]

I did ask for others testing. You said my testing is not scientific, it's not true testing. and just good enough, and If I would listen I could improve my scores. Why would I get defensive?

Justin came into the post, saying 22lr do not shoot consistent past 50 yds. when I asked how are guys hitting targets past 400yds. He came at my match, saying I allow a 50% failure rate in my scoring and 1 out of 2 shots is allowed to miss? He has come into other post of mine. Why would I get defensive?

I use the 10 shot for 5 targets for new shooter coming into my match. Most guys at my club have not shot 22lr past 100yds. We have a open clinic for the club members every Friday for long range 22 lr. I am trying to help them out. We have guys hitting targets at 400yds now.
I did not say other methods don't work. I said it's not my way of doing things. I have shot long range for 20+ years ,centerfire 600yds and 1000yds benchrest, now rimfire for the last 10 year. I am old school and not opposed to new ways. Sorry if did get defensive. Thanks for your input.

 

[Gleedus]

All of what I said is true. I think that if you took a scientific approach to ammo testing you could find a better ammo. But obviously the task requirements you have are met with your current way of testing. Thats why I said good enough.

To me its odd to give 10 shots for 5 I'm not used to that. Your explanation of why "for new shooter coming to my match". Thats awesome keep bringing new guys into long range 22lr! That makes sense to me.

I find math super interesting so lets forget about testing differences etc. and just think on what you can get away with to hit 400 yards. You have a 4" at 400 if you can hit it 4x out of 10 thats 40% or a 0.5 SD of 2" +/- this gives a expected 10 shot group ES of 3-4 SD or aprox 12"-16". If you shot 100 rounds we would expect a group ES of 24" well maintaining a 40% hit rate. This is why Justins 50 at 200 is so... ah inflammatory. It fails to show the odds of hitting a much smaller target then total group size is quite high.
This also explains why you have guys who can shoot those 400 yard targets. I like your idea of extra shots giving new shooter much much higher odds of hitting. If they hit they will be back.

I have a bit of a project I'm doing to help new MDs with target sizes and PRS matches. Its unrelated to what your doing but its target sizes that should have a 100% hit probability based on skill level, wind reading ability etc. The bar up and down are for prop/ stage difficulty.

Beginner is a loose term here. This is based on what can be hit 95% of the time on demand any day of the week first shot.

 

[oldfatjonwick]

The dirt clod is a never ending target.

when you're shooting dirt its hard to see the dispersion. with steel or paper you get that info.